Good Job Britain

[Demosthenes11]

I find the lack of the same freedom of speech embarrassing for a western nation for this day and age - I couldn't care less if it's not part of their rules. They banned him because they don't agree with what he says and in many cases he incites hatred. The only hypocritical thing here is the UK claiming to be liberal and then having these freedom of speech laws.

TBH I kind of wonder how the lawsuit will pan out. He does have a point that specifically banning him in a group of mass murders, KKK members, etc is a huge smear on his name and not something he wishes to be in league with. Doesn't matter if you agree with him or not - he doesn't deserve to be likened to people like that.

You keep saying savage is a hypocrite because he wants the US to exercise immigration laws where criminals and leeches are not allowed inside, and illegals are more or less kept out? If he were saying communists shouldnt be allowed in, I could see your point, but he is not restricting speech in what he says.

[Kuya]

US to exercise immigration laws where criminals and leeches are not allowed inside, and illegals are more or less kept out?

This statement seems strange to me for two reasons, first because you talk about exercising immigration laws and then immediately mention leeches. I'm not sure, but is leeching (nobody knows in context the word leeching is being used) in immigration laws? Then it seems you put immigrants, criminals, and these fabled leeches in the same sentence implying a relationship, but without any specification it is left to the reader to imagine what the relationship could be.

As an aside, when did the US start requiring documentation for entry into the US?

[Demosthenes11]

leeches are typically people with no short-term or long-term goals (they might not come here as leeches but more than likely they will end up as one) or people that just flat out come here for a welfare check. I'd compare it to criminals because they are more or less robbing the country.

It's not fabled either. there are plenty of figures floating around.

[Kuya]

Okay, but what do they have to do with immigration laws? I presume you put leeches and criminals because people who rob are criminals and these leeches are seemingly robbing the country, and i presume you include immigrants there when undocumented because it's against the law. I don't quite understand what leeches have to do with immigration laws.

[archibaldcrane]

I don't quite understand what leeches have to do with immigration laws.

Presumably, part of the drive to enforce immigration laws is intended to prevent the entry of, or remove so-called "leeches" from the country.

[Kuya]

US immigration laws do that? I did not know that if true. How does the US keep out leeches? Suffice to say though, what is the exact definition of a leech in this instance?

[Demosthenes11]

US immigration laws do that? I did not know that if true. How does the US keep out leeches? Suffice to say though, what is the exact definition of a leech in this instance?

gotta ask someone that works there or read the actual laws. What I said was the general gist of it. and yes they do that

[Kuya]

That's not very helpful demos, can you at least tell me what a leech is in this instance? I presume people who don't work and pay taxes?

[archibaldcrane]

That's not very helpful demos, can you at least tell me what a leech is in this instance? I presume people who don't work and pay taxes?

Yes, basically - illegal immigrants can't gain lawful employment. Many of them work for illegal employers in menial labor, but even then they put a major strain on public services, especially hospitals. They can't get drivers licenses (in most states anyway) but many still drive, which is a safety concern, and because they don't have licenses they don't have auto insurance, so if they cause an accident they are a huge hit-and-run threat.

Etc. etc. etc.

[Shuemue]

British citizens have freedom of speech, aliens need to mind their manners.

Simple enough for you demo?

[Demosthenes11]

British citizens have freedom of speech, aliens need to mind their manners.

Simple enough for you demo?

if you don't see this as a restriction on free speech then I don't see the point in talking to you

[Kuya]

Yes, basically - illegal immigrants can't gain lawful employment. Many of them work for illegal employers in menial labor, but even then they put a major strain on public services, especially hospitals. They can't get drivers licenses (in most states anyway) but many still drive, which is a safety concern, and because they don't have licenses they don't have auto insurance, so if they cause an accident they are a huge hit-and-run threat.

Etc. etc. etc.

Oh, ok.

Well good, as long as we're not conflating immigrants, undocumented immigrants and people who don't provide anything for society, but sadly, when you make statements without being very specific in what you say, you conflate automatically, and i'm not referring to you archi. I often see the word immigrant and leech tossed around together so often one has to wonder how often it needs to be said before people think of the two as synonymous.

[Demosthenes11]

I think you are mixing immigrant up with illegal immigrant. I hear people use them interchangeably all the time and I want to turn into the hulk when I hear it

[Shuemue]

if you don't see this as a restriction on free speech then I don't see the point in talking to you

It's only taken 4 pages, not bad

[archibaldcrane]

I hear you Kuya.

It is, however, difficult to not be a "leech" of some sort as an illegal immigrant. You can't legally work, you can't legally drive, you can't legally exist in the country - you have no health care, any job you take distorts the employment market, etc. etc.

The girl I'm dating right now is American, but was born and raised til she was 12 in El Salvador and illegally immigrated here (brought by her mother, who was also an illegal immigrant) not being able to speak english. She's a cool chick, speaks unaccented english now, makes 90k+ a year now, went to college, pays her taxes, etc. - but when she arrived here, speaking no English, entering school as such - it's a strain. It's a strain for schools to have to provide ESL programs and extra resources to get her up to speed, etc.

She'd be the gold standard for "why illegal immigration works" but...I mean...shit's rare.

[lamp]

I think ya'll are talking about the aspects of freedom of speech without actually understanding it, for one side of an argument, there is obviously another.
In the UK we allow freedom of speech among the common man, being a simpe 9-5 workin guy expressing yourself wont get you in trouble/banned from the country.

However if you are a person who has media attention, with a influential status, then yes i feel governing this crap is the correct procedure.

Too many people in all nations are way too weak minded, mostly down to unfortunate personal situations which make them vunderable to others misguidance.

Even if you are so very pro-freedom of speech, you must see that being able to express your opions over and over, on a national basis cant be healthy for the small minded idiots that make up 50%+ of each countries population. I could go and shout "I hate niggers" on my street right now and be fine, but if im inciting hatred against these people on a scale that can influence others, i get censored, and imo rightly so...

i hate when hippie types argue for people that are wrong , but argue just for the sake of them being able to say it.. Censorship mostly protects us from ourselves and i welcome it, the last thing i need here is racism being pushed on the national media.

[Kuya]

I hear you Kuya.

It is, however, difficult to not be a "leech" of some sort as an illegal immigrant. You can't legally work, you can't legally drive, you can't legally exist in the country - you have no health care, any job you take distorts the employment market, etc. etc.

The girl I'm dating right now is American, but was born and raised til she was 12 in El Salvador and illegally immigrated here (brought by her mother, who was also an illegal immigrant) not being able to speak english. She's a cool chick, speaks unaccented english now, makes 90k+ a year now, went to college, pays her taxes, etc. - but when she arrived here, speaking no English, entering school as such - it's a strain. It's a strain for schools to have to provide ESL programs and extra resources to get her up to speed, etc.

She'd be the gold standard for "why illegal immigration works" but...I mean...shit's rare.

I think this is common knowledge at this point, but i'll say it anyway. Is it true, for example they can only work "informally" and hence cannot pay taxes, nonetheless they do provide a service to the economy in the sense that they take jobs which can otherwise not be filled. Immigrants come to the US without documents because there exists a market for them, a market that is being efficiently exploited (and are the immigrants themselves being exploited), they come because the jobs are available, the argument that they steal jobs is slightly true, i'm sure there are occasions when it does happen, but it's not a common occurrence nor will those positions be filled by natives.

I believe around 12 million immigrants without documents are in the US, with only 4-7 million coming through the Mexican border, and the rest coming from other countries via student/worker visas. It has been noted that kicking out those 12 million immigrants without documents would wreck the economy, this is why the immigrant issue probably won't ever be resolved. They are too necessary to the US economy, and the best politicians can do is either turn up the rhetoric against undocumented immigrants for votes or argue that they are being exploited for votes, but that is as far as the issue will go. Undocumented immigrants are profitable and they form an integral part of the economy in southern states.

So i conclude, they do contribute because they work and stimulate the economy; they produce, the companies sell, and people buy; they certainly aren't leeches, and in fact, if anything at all they are more like victims. Not only are they abused by their employers, they are also attacked by nationalistic, racist, ill-informed people and demonized quite often. Rarely do you see popular outrage against the companies hiring these people, but people are perfectly willing to take it out on the undocumented immigrants.

[Demosthenes11]

wow I think i disagree with everything you just said lol

tbh I'd argue it but I don't feel like making a long winded response ;(

[Kuya]

You should post it anyway.

[Demosthenes11]

maybe in a bit. there are like 500 things i should be doing right now, even though im just watching nba ;(