Pokémon Soul Silver and Heart Gold.

[Algoth]

Pretty much. Which is why you either spend hours upon hours using selective breeding and then manipulating RNG for certain things in D/P/Pt, or you do some breeding, get a pokemon with 2 31 IVs in good stats and the right nature, and then EV train them.

People make a big deal out of it, but honestly EVs make a much, much larger difference than IVs do. It's just a min-maxing thing. To be honest, the odds that something like a 15 IV difference in HP (31 HP IVs vs. 16 HP IVs with the same EV spread) is going to make the difference between an OHKO and a 2HKO are slim to nothing.

Yes, EVs are much more important, but EV pool is the same for every Pokemon. IVs are pretty much "free stats"... if you have crappy IVs, your opponent might have a massive advantage (for example, 0 in Special Defense when your opponent has 31 in Special attack, that makes a huge difference).

[GentaiShinigami]

You could still breed for perfect 31 with parents who don't have a full 6 31 IVs. You'd have to get lucky and have the initial IV's from the PID that the egg is given be 31's, and then not have the parents pass that stat as I understand it (which could be very wrong). Looks like on average 2-4 stats total will be inherited and the rest will be what was given naturally by the eggs PID and didn't get overwritten by inherited values. This is why dual perfect IV parents will still only net you a 1/60000 chance at a perfect baby. That's ~8x harder to get than a normal non-chained wild shiny. @.@; Pretty much anyone with a full 31 spread poke that claims it is legit is probably lying (though not always). If they aren't then they likely RNG'd it which is basically the same as pokesaving it anyway. If it has a good nature/ability and/or is shiny then they are almost certainly full of it lol.

[The_OG_Nelta]

I should really buy this game..
Almost clocked 400 hours on plat.

[Algoth]

You could still breed for perfect 31 with parents who don't have a full 6 31 IVs. You'd have to get lucky and have the initial IV's from the PID that the egg is given be 31's, and then not have the parents pass that stat as I understand it (which could be very wrong). Looks like on average 2-4 stats total will be inherited and the rest will be what was given naturally by the eggs PID and didn't get overwritten by inherited values. This is why dual perfect IV parents will still only net you a 1/60000 chance at a perfect baby. That's ~8x harder to get than a normal non-chained wild shiny. @.@; Pretty much anyone with a full 31 spread poke that claims it is legit is probably lying (though not always). If they aren't then they likely RNG'd it which is basically the same as pokesaving it anyway. If it has a good nature/ability and/or is shiny then they are almost certainly full of it lol.

Yeah, the whole RNG thing is starting to bother me more and more. Back when Pearl/Diamond were released, there was no talk about "manipulating the RNG", now there are a ton of people on Serebii forums asking for super rare Event Pokemon for a RNG'd bred shiny of any species.
What exactly is the difference between doing this and just PokeSav'ing? There's gotta be something, because Serebii apparently approves of this, but not hacked Pokemons.

[GentaiShinigami]

On the topic of egg's PID/IVs. I was thinking about the soft-reset method before you pick up the egg so that nature+ability+gender are locked, but the the IV's change every time you pick the egg up thing.

The shininess of a pokemon comes from it's PID and some kind of calculation of it's IV's/nature/trainer ID+SID/etc so since the IV's change each time I'm wondering if it is theoretically possible to keep SRing the "locked" pokemon to get a shiny eventually. This would guarantee that you would get a shiny with a good nature+ability+gender that you wanted. IV's are still up in the air, but hey if you get a shiny with good nature you are already massively lucky! XD

I'll try to dig out the post I saw detailing how the calculation for shiny was composed of all these numbers and see if "egg" IV's (the final inherited ones, not the initial PID ones) will affect it's shininess. If so, then this would be a VERY useful trick. Perhaps someone here knows more about the workins of the PID, and how the string that determines shininess (if it is all even) is generated.

Was something I meant to bring up earlier, but had forgotten until just now.

[Rokku]

The nature and IVs aren't that hard on getting a shiny, just set yourself up with an Everstone (though for it to work, you have to use same nationality parents, which drops your chances back to normal), and go that route. Then it's just a 50% chance that the baby ends up with the right nature, then just SR until the IVs are decent.

The ability thing though, that's pretty much why I don't and haven't ever messed around with breeding pokemon that have multiple abilities. Too much work to set everything else up perfectly, and then get a swift kick to the nuts when you hatch a shiny with the right nature, only to find out that you ended up with Lightningrod instead of Solid Rock or some such.

[Rokku]

Yeah, the whole RNG thing is starting to bother me more and more. Back when Pearl/Diamond were released, there was no talk about "manipulating the RNG", now there are a ton of people on Serebii forums asking for super rare Event Pokemon for a RNG'd bred shiny of any species.
What exactly is the difference between doing this and just PokeSav'ing? There's gotta be something, because Serebii apparently approves of this, but not hacked Pokemons.

RNGing involves a poor "random" calculation done internally by the game, and allows a few choice poketech apps to influence it. As it turns out, the whole RNG of shiny pokemon is based on an artificial RNG that's not that hard to manipulate. No idea how people crunched the numbers to find out that given your secret ID and when you catch a pokemon that you can breed, use the coin flip app xxxx times and then use the happiness checker xxx times in a particular way, and viola, hatched shiny, but props to them.

[Algoth]

On the topic of egg's PID/IVs. I was thinking about the soft-reset method before you pick up the egg so that nature+ability+gender are locked, but the the IV's change every time you pick the egg up thing.

The shininess of a pokemon comes from it's PID and some kind of calculation of it's IV's/nature/trainer ID+SID/etc so since the IV's change each time I'm wondering if it is theoretically possible to keep SRing the "locked" pokemon to get a shiny eventually. This would guarantee that you would get a shiny with a good nature+ability+gender that you wanted. IV's are still up in the air, but hey if you get a shiny with good nature you are already massively lucky! XD

I'll try to dig out the post I saw detailing how the calculation for shiny was composed of all these numbers and see if "egg" IV's (the final inherited ones, not the initial PID ones) will affect it's shininess. If so, then this would be a VERY useful trick. Perhaps someone here knows more about the workins of the PID, and how the string that determines shininess (if it is all even) is generated.

Was something I meant to bring up earlier, but had forgotten until just now.

Well, there are two things that I see wrong with this. First of all, you'd still have to hatch the egg, so what would you really gain from this? And second, unless you are using the Masuda method, you have a VERY LOW chance of getting a shiny from egg. Well, even with Masuda method it's low, but still.

[GentaiShinigami]

Yeah, the whole RNG thing is starting to bother me more and more. Back when Pearl/Diamond were released, there was no talk about "manipulating the RNG", now there are a ton of people on Serebii forums asking for super rare Event Pokemon for a RNG'd bred shiny of any species.
What exactly is the difference between doing this and just PokeSav'ing? There's gotta be something, because Serebii apparently approves of this, but not hacked Pokemons.

Really the only difference in my OPINION is that RNG'd pokemon are less likely to have errors that always are there in bad hacks. People will argue that they are created by the game, and done with no manipulation to the game so they are legit. You aren't directly manipulating the code or the game sure, but you are twisting mechanics around in ways they weren't supposed to be. Not that I have a problem with it at all. Just seems like something you would either do for fun (some people enjoy these things) or because you don't have access to pokesav/AR.

Biggest problem with Pokesav hacks is people fail hard at verifying that everything is correct, and get lazy and don't fill everything out properly. With RNG'd poke you won't have this problem because the game still makes the pokemon. It's all just a giant mess imo. I wouldn't allow RNG'd ones personally if I was in charge of a tournament or something because you can make stuff happen that really just should not be going down. Hitting all 31's should be like winning the pokemon lottery. Not something that you get because you used the coin toss app 500 times and flipped 1500 journal pages. Man I'm glad I'm not part of the competitive scene! >.>;

Let me re-state that I have no problem with RNGing or Pokesaving your game. It is your game do as you will, but if you are trading/battling with other people have some dignity and honor and tell them that you are using said methods to obtain these pokemon.

[Algoth]

RNGing involves a poor "random" calculation done internally by the game, and allows a few choice poketech apps to influence it. As it turns out, the whole RNG of shiny pokemon is based on an artificial RNG that's not that hard to manipulate. No idea how people crunched the numbers to find out that given your secret ID and when you catch a pokemon that you can breed, use the coin flip app xxxx times and then use the happiness checker xxx times in a particular way, and viola, hatched shiny, but props to them.

Yeah, I've read the articles, I do understand "how" they do it (although they must've PokeSav'd at some point to find out their secret ID), I just don't understand that some people would go this far to essentially cheat the game, and then claim that it's not the same as PokeSav'ing.

[Rokku]

Yeah, I've read the articles, I do understand "how" they do it (although they must've PokeSav'd at some point to find out their secret ID), I just don't understand that some people would go this far to essentially cheat the game, and then claim that it's not the same as PokeSav'ing.

Oh wow, I didn't even realize they had found a way to do it with IVs. I had only really ever read up on the Shiny RNG manipulation but.. Man alive, that process for perfect IVs is some convoluted and exhaustive shit. Can't even imagine doing that.

[GentaiShinigami]

Well, there are two things that I see wrong with this. First of all, you'd still have to hatch the egg, so what would you really gain from this? And second, unless you are using the Masuda method, you have a VERY LOW chance of getting a shiny from egg. Well, even with Masuda method it's low, but still.

Dont understand what you are asking. Masuda method is a given, and it's not really that rare to get one using said method. I've gotten two in ~5 days of breeding vs 1 seen in 300 hours of gameplay. Not sure what you mean by yeah you'd have to hatch the egg. That's the idea behind the SRing of the egg. You keep saving before you take an egg from the old man, and just take one. Hatch it and if it has a good nature+ability+gender then you can soft-reset and re-get the egg, but this time it will have different IV's upon hatching. This is because I believe the egg has it's own natural PID IV's given to it when it is in the man's possession, but when you take it from him it passes down the inherited IV's. Inherited IV's will vary every time which allows you to keep everything the same, but get a chance at better IVs.

There are two different outcomes depending on how the shiny string generation works. Either you hatch it and it's shiny, and can keep resetting until you get IV's you like (and it keeps the shininess each time) or you can get one with all the nature+ability+gender you like, and keep SRing until you finally get one that is shiny (which is hardly different from SRing a legendary for shiny). Either way it's useful information I'm just trying to find someone who might know more so I can determine which scenario will happen. I wouldn't want to test it on a shiny I hatch personally with no insight into it. =X

[Algoth]

Really the only difference in my OPINION is that RNG'd pokemon are less likely to have errors that always are there in bad hacks. People will argue that they are created by the game, and done with no manipulation to the game so they are legit. You aren't directly manipulating the code or the game sure, but you are twisting mechanics around in ways they weren't supposed to be. Not that I have a problem with it at all. Just seems like something you would either do for fun (some people enjoy these things) or because you don't have access to pokesav/AR.

Biggest problem with Pokesav hacks is people fail hard at verifying that everything is correct, and get lazy and don't fill everything out properly. With RNG'd poke you won't have this problem because the game still makes the pokemon. It's all just a giant mess imo. I wouldn't allow RNG'd ones personally if I was in charge of a tournament or something because you can make stuff happen that really just should not be going down. Hitting all 31's should be like winning the pokemon lottery. Not something that you get because you used the coin toss app 500 times and flipped 1500 journal pages. Man I'm glad I'm not part of the competitive scene! >.>;

Let me re-state that I have no problem with RNGing or Pokesaving your game. It is your game do as you will, but if you are trading/battling with other people have some dignity and honor and tell them that you are using said methods to obtain these pokemon.

That's what bothers me. I mean sure, I don't have to play with these people, but to me shiny Pokemons were cool because they were so rare. Now we got people trading shinys on forums like they are nothing special (seriously, there are people on Serebii with probably hundreds of shinys) and really, they aren't. Thanks to PokeRadar, RNG manipulation, Masuda method and so on, shinys really aren't anything special anymore.

Then there are people who collect Event Pokemon. And how do they do that? By duping their own Event Pokemon and trading them with others. If you can just copy something infinitely and trade it for other people's copies, then it's not really collecting anymore, is it?

Sorry for ranting, this kinda stuff just gets to me. :\

[Rokku]

Dont understand what you are asking. Masuda method is a given, and it's not really that rare to get one using said method. I've gotten two in ~5 days of breeding vs 1 seen in 300 hours of gameplay. Not sure what you mean by yeah you'd have to hatch the egg. That's the idea behind the SRing of the egg. You keep saving before you take an egg from the old man, and just take one. Hatch it and if it has a good nature+ability+gender then you can soft-reset and re-get the egg, but this time it will have different IV's upon hatching. This is because I believe the egg has it's own natural PID IV's given to it when it is in the man's possession, but when you take it from him it passes down the inherited IV's. Inherited IV's will vary every time which allows you to keep everything the same, but get a chance at better IVs.

There are two different outcomes depending on how the shiny string generation works. Either you hatch it and it's shiny, and can keep resetting until you get IV's you like (and it keeps the shininess each time) or you can get one with all the nature+ability+gender you like, and keep SRing until you finally get one that is shiny (which is hardly different from SRing a legendary for shiny). Either way it's useful information I'm just trying to find someone who might know more so I can determine which scenario will happen. I wouldn't want to test it on a shiny I hatch personally with no insight into it. =X

I'm not quite sure what you're asking, but in terms of being Shiny, you can't SR into it on an egg, it's status in that regard is supposedly generated when the egg is generated. Your comments on egg IVs are correct though, unlike nature+ability+shiny status, they're generated using the available pools from the parents and any influencing factors (stat bands forcing a particular pass) every time the egg hatches.

[Algoth]

Dont understand what you are asking. Masuda method is a given, and it's not really that rare to get one using said method. I've gotten two in ~5 days of breeding vs 1 seen in 300 hours of gameplay. Not sure what you mean by yeah you'd have to hatch the egg. That's the idea behind the SRing of the egg. You keep saving before you take an egg from the old man, and just take one. Hatch it and if it has a good nature+ability+gender then you can soft-reset and re-get the egg, but this time it will have different IV's upon hatching. This is because I believe the egg has it's own natural PID IV's given to it when it is in the man's possession, but when you take it from him it passes down the inherited IV's. Inherited IV's will vary every time which allows you to keep everything the same, but get a chance at better IVs.

There are two different outcomes depending on how the shiny string generation works. Either you hatch it and it's shiny, and can keep resetting until you get IV's you like (and it keeps the shininess each time) or you can get one with all the nature+ability+gender you like, and keep SRing until you finally get one that is shiny (which is hardly different from SRing a legendary for shiny). Either way it's useful information I'm just trying to find someone who might know more so I can determine which scenario will happen. I wouldn't want to test it on a shiny I hatch personally with no insight into it. =X

Sorry, I'll try to explain what I meant a bit better.
I mean that if you just hatch one egg at a time (instead of the usual five) it will take you even longer to find one that could be shiny.
But yes, if the nature gets decided when you pick up the egg, then this would be a reliable way of getting a shiny with good nature.

Edit: I don't really know when all the stuff gets generated for an egg (IVs, Nature etc.) because I've never really thought about SRing an egg.

[GentaiShinigami]

Oh wow, I didn't even realize they had found a way to do it with IVs. I had only really ever read up on the Shiny RNG manipulation but.. Man alive, that process for perfect IVs is some convoluted and exhaustive shit. Can't even imagine doing that.

Pretty much goes something like: Spam A to get into the game open journal and flip 378 pages that have a pokemon on it, open the happiness checker app and tap 823 times and some other random crap that takes forever (and I'd totally lose count) and then the next pokemon is what you wanted! >.>; Way too complicated, and like I've read elsewhere the only reason you should use RNG over Pokesav is you don't have access to Pokesav or you really are a masochist and enjoy the RNG method. XD

[GentaiShinigami]

Sorry, I'll try to explain what I meant a bit better.
I mean that if you just hatch one egg at a time (instead of the usual five) it will take you even longer to find one that could be shiny.
But yes, if the nature gets decided when you pick up the egg, then this would be a reliable way of getting a shiny with good nature.

Exactly. The nature+ability+gender (and anything else not IV) are all locked into place. It's not a good method to get shinies, but rather it is a good method of getting a shiny that has good ability+nature+etc. Both shinies I have gotten breeding had horrible natures so for instance on my Lucario egg I soft reset (modest one) to get good SpATK IV (going off characteristic) I could have ended up with a shiny, but it would have had Inner Focus and been Modest which kicks major ass compared to like Sassy w/ Steadfast or something lame like that which I totally do not want on him.

[Rokku]

Exactly. The nature+ability+gender (and anything else not IV) are all locked into place. It's not a good method to get shinies, but rather it is a good method of getting a shiny that has good ability+nature+etc. Both shinies I have gotten breeding had horrible natures so for instance on my Lucario egg I soft reset (modest one) to get good SpATK IV (going off characteristic) I could have ended up with a shiny, but it would have had Inner Focus and been Modest which kicks major ass compared to like Sassy w/ Steadfast or something lame like that which I totally do not want on him.

Shiny Lucario looks awesome though, in hatching one you'd be required to use it regardless, or you might upset the balance of things.

[GentaiShinigami]

Edit: I don't really know when all the stuff gets generated for an egg (IVs, Nature etc.) because I've never really thought about SRing an egg.

It is very simple. When the old man turns to right and signals he has an egg everything but inherited IV's are generated already, and will not change ever. When you receive the egg from him the IV's will be passed down (and of course will end up different each time they are). I had no idea bout it till it was mentioned earlier in the thread (by Zanz or Magus I think it was? I honestly don't remember ><).

[GentaiShinigami]

Shiny Lucario looks awesome though, in hatching one you'd be required to use it regardless, or you might upset the balance of things.

Haha, very true. My perfectionism/OCD-lite bugs the crap out of me with things like that though. I really hate it, but it is what it is.