Do you think Hand-to-hand weapons should allow Grips?

[Yugl]

drg does alot better at HNM than ppl give it credit for[not khimera, cerb, or tiamat, or others where you don't melee at all] on sky gods, or fafnir it does same or better than most DD, though it can't really /thf well is main problem, if something for /thf personally I'd much rather blu or sam, drg w/angon though really adds large amount to everyone's dmg at stuff like JoL.

I said aside from Angon, on mobs where WS > DoT (Meaning WS instead of Melee), DRG doesn't have much against these HNMs. Yes it's better than MNK, but not as good as SAM or WAR (Since it was put up with those two).

Personally since I pretty much only merit on my drg lately[rarely sam if mamool ja], the first DD I always want is either war or sam and the reason for that is a simply one, since I am not voking mobs off the bard, I want someone to and mnk can't really do that. I have no problem taking mnk as the 3rd/4th DD sometimes though but most mnks I've found can't really keep up at all w/me, I've seen maybe 2 in 10 ish that can.

If doing Colibri with a MNK, I tend to let them sub WAR and go as DRG/mage. We don't have the MP problem, which allows the MNK to go all out attacking.

[Shin Volcano]

drg does alot better at HNM than ppl give it credit for[not khimera, cerb, or tiamat, or others where you don't melee at all] on sky gods, or fafnir it does same or better than most DD, though it can't really /thf well is main problem, if something for /thf personally I'd much rather blu or sam, drg w/angon though really adds large amount to everyone's dmg at stuff like JoL.



Personally since I pretty much only merit on my drg lately[rarely sam if mamool ja], the first DD I always want is either war or sam and the reason for that is a simply one, since I am not voking mobs off the bard, I want someone to and mnk can't really do that. I have no problem taking mnk as the 3rd/4th DD sometimes though but most mnks I've found can't really keep up at all w/me, I've seen maybe 2 in 10 ish that can.

I guess this is the primary problem, since MNKs cannot provoke without subbing war which is just suicidal because 80% of the healers are lazy (nothing wrong with whm in a merit pt, which is also another problem) is why we are looked over, you COULD sub war as mnk but...good luck with that. the problem uis that 3-4th slot is always taken by more wars..MNK is bascialy only sought after if all other DDS aren't avilable.

[Francisco]

More importantly though, I think THF needs some serious damage increase.

The problem with that is, THF isn't meant to be a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to control hate, increase drops and handle the occasional add.

The problem with THAT is, hate control isn't really needed in a merit party, nor is TH, and bards can just sleep adds - so THF has no demand in merit parties at all...

And even on the HNM scene, when is the last time a PLD worth a damn needed a THF to TA to hold hate? THF is basically regulated to "TH4 Whore" and Feint for zergs now.

I agree THF needs something, but I wouldn't count on SE making them legitimate damage dealers on par with MNK, WAR, SAM, etc...

[Wolfknight]

If doing Colibri with a MNK, I tend to let them sub WAR and go as DRG/mage. We don't have the MP problem, which allows the MNK to go all out attacking.

I do that sometimes but cor and/or brd sometimes don't think will work so just stick standard set-up cause finding brd/cor is a pain.

[Greatguardian]

The problem a lot of people see with pickup Mnks in a merit situation is it takes a decent amount of gear to do it properly. Yes, every job does require good gear to do shit right. But 2handers get a very nice native acc/attack bonus and /Sam actually gives offensive bonuses compared to /Nin.

Good Mnks can hold their own against most any DD in a meripo, especially at MJSP where good Plm Sams don't gain a really nice edge. Most people just tend to remember the shitty/mediocre Mnks more than the good ones.

[Sanjiyan]

So basically SAM is good at everything, which was something we all knew to begin with.

[Hiryo]

So basically SAM is good at everything, which was something we all knew to being with.

This was what i wanted to hear lol

[Baha]

The problem with that is, THF isn't meant to be a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to control hate, increase drops and handle the occasional add.

Oh, SAM is not a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to make skillchains, provide for MB opportunities and solo the occasional SC.

Oh, DRG is not meant to be a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to provide low-hate damage, with added damage from their pet and maybe assist healing a bit.

etc. The DRG bit might be pushing it, but SAM's intended role is SC'er. The "hate controller" argument got thrown around Alla all the fucking time, it was bullshit then and still is now.

Twohander update was necesarry, but went slightly too far. Best example: WAR. Pre-update, WAR/NIN (and to a lesser extent, NIN) ruled all in meripo's, you were either of these dualwielding jobs, or good luck finding a pickup meripo. You wanted to use Gaxe on WAR, because you liked the look? People laughed and told you to get with the program.

Now it's the exact opposite, use 1h axe? Get ready to get called out on it if you use it, hell, polearm is more widely accepted than a 1h axe. Would be nice if both A-skill weapons were at least both considered viable, especially for an *ahem* "master of various weapons" job.

Twohanders used to be neglected (especially DRK and DRG), but now they're on top of the game. One of the dualwielding jobs whose dominance sparked the update switched weapons and subs and is still on top. The other onehanded users, not the greatest prepatch, were collateral damage and got pushed down just a bit further. MNK is sort of with the onehanders, but they suffered less in comparison, because they were already very strong, and have slightly different mechanics.

[Francisco]

Oh, SAM is not a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to make skillchains, provide for MB opportunities and solo the occasional SC.

Oh, DRG is not meant to be a heavy hitting DD - they are, by design, meant to provide low-hate damage, with added damage from their pet and maybe assist healing a bit.

etc. The DRG bit might be pushing it, but SAM's intended role is SC'er. The "hate controller" argument got thrown around Alla all the fucking time, it was bullshit then and still is now.

To clarify, that wasn't my argument against it, but rather how SE probably sees things.

As is right now, WAR is probably the least "flawed" of the big DD... they do nearly as much DoT as a MNK, and nearly as much WS damage as SAM. DRK is probably slightly ahead of SAM in DoT (?) and behind in WS damage - but miles ahead in zerg damage. DRG keeps up with SAM, DRK and MNK - but I'm not sure how they fare as far as DoT vs WS damage goes... RNG, probably the biggest spike damage dealer with EES, Barrage and Sidewinder/Slugshot, is horrendously slow otherwise. NIN has really fallen behind, PUP is laughable and THF isn't very good outside of solo.

So I agree that THF, PUP, and NIN could all use something - even moreso than MNK.

What does MNK need? The one issue I have with the job is it seems to be pushed down a tier in terms of gear vs damage - because of the 2H changes and /SAM. A "great" MNK will be on par with a "good" WAR - but lose to a "great" WAR, and so on.

A lot of "small" things could really revolutionize the job as well, because MNK is "on the cusp" of a lot of great things - mostly in the tanking department. I've been in a few situations where I could have prevented a loss to a random mob/event - if only I had some way to grab hate off the mages quickly. If you're fighting LBC with a WAR, and the WAR dies somehow... the only way to grab hate off a mage is to spam all your JAs, and melee on top of the mage(s), causing the mob to spam TP.

[Yugl]

Twohander update was necesarry, but went slightly too far. Best example: WAR. Pre-update, WAR/NIN (and to a lesser extent, NIN) ruled all in meripo's, you were either of these dualwielding jobs, or good luck finding a pickup meripo. You wanted to use Gaxe on WAR, because you liked the look? People laughed and told you to get with the program.

Now it's the exact opposite, use 1h axe? Get ready to get called out on it if you use it, hell, polearm is more widely accepted than a 1h axe. Would be nice if both A-skill weapons were at least both considered viable, especially for an *ahem* "master of various weapons" job.

G Axe is A+ for WAR, so by comparison, they fixed WAR just fine.

Twohanders used to be neglected (especially DRK and DRG), but now they're on top of the game. One of the dualwielding jobs whose dominance sparked the update switched weapons and subs and is still on top. The other onehanded users, not the greatest prepatch, were collateral damage and got pushed down just a bit further. MNK is sort of with the onehanders, but they suffered less in comparison, because they were already very strong, and have slightly different mechanics.

MNKs and WAR were king before the 2H patch. MNK is relatively less competitive, but that's mainly due to mob choice differences and WS DMG. WAR is even better than before, which makes sense if they're changing from G Axe (Their MAIN weapon) to Axe. I find it ridiculous that dual wielding an axe and sword does more than dual wielding two axes.

[Shinryuu]

drg does alot better at HNM than ppl give it credit for[not khimera, cerb, or tiamat, or others where you don't melee at all] on sky gods, or fafnir it does same or better than most DD, though it can't really /thf well is main problem, if something for /thf personally I'd much rather blu or sam, drg w/angon though really adds large amount to everyone's dmg at stuff like JoL.

I've been saying that a lot. Bringing one or two DRGs that do a little less damage than the top DD but improve everyone's damage is awesome. Usually people will have multiple melee leveled anyway, making someone into an angon whore is fine. Wheeling Thrust does pretty decent against really high-end stuff, too. Shame people see DRG as merit-only, when ironically, polearm SAM and WAR do that a little better.

[Baha]

To clarify, that wasn't my argument against it, but rather how SE probably sees things.

Figured as much, I just dislike seeing "but THF has TH, THF can solo well, THF is hate control" reasons for saying that it's just fine as it is.

What does MNK need? The one issue I have with the job is it seems to be pushed down a tier in terms of gear vs damage - because of the 2H changes and /SAM. A "great" MNK will be on par with a "good" WAR - but lose to a "great" WAR, and so on.

I agree, it's not reasonable you need to have twice the gear as a MNK to outdo AH SAM or WAR. MNK does have it a bit better than THF, NIN, BLU, PUP etc, but it's still in pretty much the same boat.

G Axe is A+ for WAR, so by comparison, they fixed WAR just fine.

Yes, but the patch wasn't limited to WAR, it had consequences for all DD. I took WAR as an example because it shows that the bad situation wasn't balanced, but (nearly) reversed.
A- axe A+ gaxe, you'd figure they would both be acceptable, and that you'd be able to use either, if you so chose/geared/merited. Before patch there was no good reason to use Gaxe (ok, 300tp Steel Cyclone). Now there's no good reason to use a onehanded axe (maybe Smash Axe is handy here and there). But in situations where you need to consistently do damage (merits and merit-like events) you'd be considered gimp with a gaxe prepatch, and gimp if you dualwield now.

WAR and SAM can use polearms fine now (ofc, only situationally), Gswd PLD does pretty decently as well. Yet they're B-skilled weapons, you know, one of the eternal anti-melee RDM arguments? But for these weapons skill is of secondary importance, because they're twohanders.

It's cool that DRG, DRK and SAM can hang now, and that WAR and SAM can use secondary weapons when the situation calls for it. No nerfs necesarry, but a smallish boost to onehanders (not just MNK, or any other single job) to close the gap a bit would be more than welcome.

[Ophannus]

MNK can still Footwork+Dragon Kick+SATA for like 1600 on gods, whereas SATA wheeling does like 800~

My best argument AGAINST grips is that a 75MNK with Destroyers already has 172 delay per fist with 50DMG per hit. That's like a NIN dual-weilding 172 delay 50DMG daggers. Oh and that's pre-haste gear, just counting MA traits. Oh and +6% Crit.

[Sanjiyan]

This is what I don't get. People keep bringing up SATA+footwork+DK as this holy grail for MNKs that somehow let them do respectable spike damage, when they fail to realize that to do respectable damage (read: damage that sometimes if lucky come close to a fully buffed 2-hander WS), the MNK/THF not only has to build 300% TP, but also spend 2:45 boosting, and has a small window to land the WS.

And they also fail to realize that MNK/THF with staff using SATA+full swing has been around since forever, and does BETTER damage than footwork+DK. We all know how (un)popular that was, despite the numerous 2.5k damage full swings in people's sigs.

A 100% SATA+footwork+DK at best does around how much a SAM/WAR does at 100% using a hagun, with the disadvantage of much slower TP gain, needing to line up for the sneak attack, and especially on Dark Ixion, raping the mages MP because DI loves to kick and MNK/THF has no damage mitigation ability.

Why do you think people wrote footwork off as nothing more than a tool to give back a little more TP on an asuran once every 5 minutes?

PS: Not saying DRG is better at spike damage, but at least they get all the other benefits of a 2-hander, and seriously drakesbane is hax.

[ronin sparthos]

So people want THF, MNK and 1handers to get a general DD buff but would this not just lead us back to the FFXI of '05-06 where it was Dual Wield/Utsu spam or get the fuck out my parties? How about simply instead create more situations where a specific jobs can shine?

Monk generally has an all-around good standing as a DPS but largely because its Colibri or gtfo in the general merit party you have SAMs, WARs and DRGs swinging an advantage. How about the simple return of a competitive blunt exp camp where MNK and PUP could shine? Open up some variety between the EXP camps and maybe you'd see some more variety in who gets picked for what EXP party.

Mamool and Birds alone arent variety.

I think people forget that alot more jobs far way below the holy-grail tier. You have Beastmaster, the jobs thats been sitting in purgatory since Zilart. No one gives a shit about BST you say? Thats because the jobs that fucked up.

Whens the last time you've seen a Beastmaster at anything? Ive played since '05 and ive seen more PUP action at the endgame than Beastmaster. "Underpowered" sums up BST. What about Ranger? The job that started off as being completely imbalanced then got the hardest slap any jobs gotten in the game? That job could use more than Velocity Shot for sure. How about Dancer? The job that is supposed to heal but cant on anything remotely HNM-tier? Summoner? The job that doesn't come into its own till level 70.

While I sympathize with Monk getting a shitty JA in Footwork, the job is simply a patch or two from being "complete". Some jobs are in such bad shape they'd require an overhaul or a massive buff in order to even be seen as useful at anything. You fix Footwork and you've fixed MNK vs HNMs. In terms of opportunities to justify Monk being picked over everyone else? That would require alternative merit camps that are desperately needed, something preferably weak to blunt damage.

More unique and "fun" gear choices could also help to breathe some life into the job but SE seems deathly afraid to surpass Zilart-era gear.

[Yugl]

Yes, but the patch wasn't limited to WAR, it had consequences for all DD. I took WAR as an example because it shows that the bad situation wasn't balanced, but (nearly) reversed.

The problem is you really *don't* show that its reversed. If I have a A+ and a A- Weapon, which SHOULD do more DMG? The A+ right? Well the update made an A+ take over a A- weapon right? Problem solved.

A- axe A+ gaxe, you'd figure they would both be acceptable, and that you'd be able to use either, if you so chose/geared/merited.

No, FFXI is about the best gear, so even if they did similar damage, people would advocate G axe anyways. If the game were balanced, an A+ weapon would out damage an A- weapon. In this case the update made that a reality.

Before patch there was no good reason to use Gaxe (ok, 300tp Steel Cyclone). Now there's no good reason to use a onehanded axe (maybe Smash Axe is handy here and there).

See above comment.

But in situations where you need to consistently do damage (merits and merit-like events) you'd be considered gimp with a gaxe prepatch, and gimp if you dualwield now.

That is how it should be.

WAR and SAM can use polearms fine now (ofc, only situationally), Gswd PLD does pretty decently as well. Yet they're B-skilled weapons, you know, one of the eternal anti-melee RDM arguments? But for these weapons skill is of secondary importance, because they're twohanders.

Polearm SAM and WARs is pretty much merit PT only because they gain a damage bonus and a multi-hit WS. A PLD using G Sword is fooling around. On anything serious, a WAR is using a G Axe (Like he should), a SAM is using a G Katana (Like he should), and a PLD is using Sword/Shield (Like he should).

It's cool that DRG, DRK and SAM can hang now, and that WAR and SAM can use secondary weapons when the situation calls for it. No nerfs necesarry, but a smallish boost to onehanders (not just MNK, or any other single job) to close the gap a bit would be more than welcome.

MNK is fine aside from spike damage, and since we're talking about grips, I'll mention that grips barely affect WS damage. They're most beneficial for TP gain. Since MNK excels in this department, does not make sense to suggest that they need grips.

[Fridell]

This thread could almost be merged with the DD Potential Discussion from Media one.

[Blasta]

Now make a poll "If you voted yes, is your MNK 75?"

Results: Yes im MNK and i voted yes:100%
Yes im MNK but i voted no: 0%

GG

[miokomioko]

I think this argument is based on the fact that some jobs have become something different than what they were originally advertised as.

Warrior was advertised to us players as the ultimate tank and as a job that had a mastery of many weapon types. Not quite.

Samurai was advertised as a solo melee with an expertise in skillchains. Somewhat true.


I guess they were spot-on with Puppetmasters "entertain crowds and confound their enemies."


edit: My MNK is 75, almost complete gear-wise, and I voted no.

[Shinryuu]

Why the fuck are people saying things about spike damage? Spike damage in itself doesn't boost your average damage over time, which is all that matters for a melee. Sure, in zergs, many jobs use their 2-hour to do 'spike damage', but coincidentally the two best zerg jobs (MNK, DRK) don't.

Seriously, cut the 2004 'spike damage' bullshit, it hurts my head.