Do you think Hand-to-hand weapons should allow Grips?

[Thorny]

What about Ranger? The job that started off as being completely imbalanced then got the hardest slap any jobs gotten in the game? That job could use more than Velocity Shot for sure.

Barring zerg, RNG is very competitive as a DD. Possible for 5hit with a weaponskill equal to or better than the SAM ws in most situations, access to so much accuracy any other job would cream in their pants(and can still keep 20% delay- through snapshot, mirke, barbut).. barrage is ridiculous spike damage and gives you a free additional ws. On top of all of that, it can stay out of range of nearly all aoes while still DDing. RNG is excellent for Ixion, Odin, sky gods(lol), jailers, and ZNM.. I'd hardly call it worthless or say it needs another buff(not that I'd object if it got one, I love my shinies :X).

[miokomioko]

Seriously, cut the 2004 'spike damage' bullshit, it hurts my head.

It's the same reason there's still retarded BLMs who think Burst II is the only spell they fucking have because it makes the biggest pretty numbers.

[ronin sparthos]

Barring zerg, RNG is very competitive as a DD. Possible for 5hit with a weaponskill equal to or better than the SAM ws in most situations, access to so much accuracy any other job would cream in their pants(and can still keep 20% delay- through snapshot, mirke, barbut).. barrage is ridiculous spike damage and gives you a free additional ws. On top of all of that, it can stay out of range of nearly all aoes while still DDing. RNG is excellent for Ixion, Odin, sky gods(lol), jailers, and ZNM.. I'd hardly call it worthless or say it needs another buff(not that I'd object if it got one, I love my shinies :X).

RNG has access to so much accuracy and will always still be shitty in the weaponskill accuracy department. While this may have been a good counterbalance two or so odd years ago, it proves to be an archaic roadblock playing Ranger. How many times do you see other jobs completely whiffing a weaponskill?

The distance penalties are also archaic, penalizing players for standing out of AOE range with certain weapons (xbows/guns). Cmon, it was a shitty idea years ago and its even more of a shitty idea now.

Empyreal Arrow is so bad few unlock it nevermind use it and SE supposedly "buffed" it during a patch a while back.

Ranger has alot of legit uses but the old-school nerfs really hold the job back in areas that no longer need holding back.

[Yugl]

Why the fuck are people saying things about spike damage? Spike damage in itself doesn't boost your average damage over time, which is all that matters for a melee. Sure, in zergs, many jobs use their 2-hour to do 'spike damage', but coincidentally the two best zerg jobs (MNK, DRK) don't.

Seriously, cut the 2004 'spike damage' bullshit, it hurts my head.

Everything in FFXI is zerged. EVERYTHING!

[Wolfknight]

Now make a poll "If you voted yes, is your MNK 75?"

Results: Yes im MNK and i voted yes:100%
Yes im MNK but i voted no: 0%

GG

Voted No, cause doesn't fix issue of what mnk needs, only makes better at what they already good at.

[Shin Volcano]

Voted No, cause doesn't fix issue of what mnk needs, only makes better at what they already good at.

Hey i agree, they're pretty good at hiting sky god/HNMS hell anything with moderlty high defense for 10-20 damage. they are also VERY good at taking shit loads of damage without shadows.

[miokomioko]

Hey i agree, they're pretty good at hiting sky god/HNMS hell anything with moderlty high defense for 10-20 damage. they are also VERY good at taking shit loads of damage without shadows.

Hello? How is a grip going to fix this?

[Shin Volcano]

Hello? How is a grip going to fix this?

That's the problem...it's not unless they gave some kind of damage bonus to there "grips" under special circumstances such as "ingores defense", that sort of thing

[miokomioko]

That's the problem...it's not unless they gave some kind of damage bonus to there "grips" under special circumstances such as "ingores defense", that sort of thing

You bombarded the guy with sarcasm for saying that a grip wouldn't fix MNK's problems, and you list all of MNK's problems which you admit wouldn't be fixed by a grip unless it had some ridiculous/unrealistic traits. OK.

[Yugl]

You bombarded the guy with sarcasm for saying that a grip wouldn't fix MNK's problems, and you list all of MNK's problems which you admit wouldn't be fixed by a grip unless it had some ridiculous/unrealistic traits. OK.

I didn't think he was being sarcastic.

[Baha]

The problem is you really *don't* show that its reversed. If I have a A+ and a A- Weapon, which SHOULD do more DMG? The A+ right? Well the update made an A+ take over a A- weapon right? Problem solved.

No, FFXI is about the best gear, so even if they did similar damage, people would advocate G axe anyways. If the game were balanced, an A+ weapon would out damage an A- weapon. In this case the update made that a reality.

So you agree an A+ weapon should be equal yeah? If you're an 8/8 Axe meritted WAR (285 skill I think?), dualwielding Man/Jugg you'll still get told to switch to your "mere" 276 skill Gaxe and /SAM (actually, /SAM's even optional), because you'll do better. Putting merits into Gaxe would only widen the gap further.

Of course for the minmaxer who puts merits in what's best, a fullmeritted Gaxe should outdamage a fullmeritted Axe because of the starting difference. But making a 9 level skill difference irrelevant is a bit much, imho. Hope that made my point a bit clearer.

Polearm SAM and WARs is pretty much merit PT only because they gain a damage bonus and a multi-hit WS. A PLD using G Sword is fooling around. On anything serious, a WAR is using a G Axe (Like he should), a SAM is using a G Katana (Like he should), and a PLD is using Sword/Shield (Like he should).

You're unable to make a onehanded weapon work in merits if it's not at least A, that's my point. Blau/Joy on WAR (both B weapons) won't compete, yet they have both the traits you listed. Even if you had 8 sword and 8 dagger merits you would, at the very, very best, barely be able to stay within reach of an unmeritted polearm WAR. Why? They're not twohanded weapons.

[miokomioko]

I think my sarcasm meter is off. I am so used to the most demeaning of tones to be spoken here. I read "taking shitloads of damage without shadows" as no shadows = MP sponge.

Ewps.

[mallister]

Voted No, cause doesn't fix issue of what mnk needs, only makes better at what they already good at.

this.

[Yugl]

So you agree an A+ weapon should be equal yeah? If you're an 8/8 Axe meritted WAR (285 skill I think?), dualwielding Man/Jugg you'll still get told to switch to your "mere" 276 skill Gaxe and /SAM (actually, /SAM's even optional), because you'll do better. Putting merits into Gaxe would only widen the gap further.

Along those same lines, if you have a WAR completely merited for Ridill use, he'll be asked to come Ridill WAR > G Axe. That's using a sword, which is even worse than the skill ratings G Axe and Axe have initially.

Of course for the minmaxer who puts merits in what's best, a fullmeritted Gaxe should outdamage a fullmeritted Axe because of the starting difference. But making a 9 level skill difference irrelevant is a bit much, imho. Hope that made my point a bit clearer.

With Dual Wield, as mentioned in the above example, you can make a weapon that falls short in skill (WITH Merits) beat an A+ base weapon. What is your point?

You're unable to make a onehanded weapon work in merits if it's not at least A, that's my point.

Ridill makes it work if you have the merits locked in (And skewed to hell as you mentioned in your example). Even then, is there a problem with not using a Non-A Weapon? If that's the weapon SE intended for us to use, then I think they did damn well in making sure we use what we should be using.

Blau/Joy on WAR (both B weapons) won't compete, yet they have both the traits you listed. Even if you had 8 sword and 8 dagger merits you would, at the very, very best, barely be able to stay within reach of an unmeritted polearm WAR. Why? They're not twohanded weapons.

The example you just gave puts a lot more differences at work than simply Dual Wield v 2H weapons. Compare WSs from a Dagger and Polearm. Even BEFORE the 2H update, Polearm WSs outranked Dagger WS.

Anyways, this argument you're trying to present is irrelevant to the conversation. More importantly, you miss out the main class in this discussion: MNK. Do MNK use Staffs over H2H? No? I wonder why? Same type of DMG (Blunt), yet one is 2H and the other isn't. Your argument falls here. More importantly, what does this have to do with grips? The fact is that MNK does excel at DoT and grips will NOT solve the problem, which is that they cannot compare in terms of spike damage to other melees.

Edit: Simply put, there are other factors outside of the 2H Update itself that make 2H more viable than 1H/H2H.

[Baha]

Along those same lines, if you have a WAR completely merited for Ridill use, he'll be asked to come Ridill WAR > G Axe. That's using a sword, which is even worse than the skill ratings G Axe and Axe have initially.

With Dual Wield, as mentioned in the above example, you can make a weapon that falls short in skill (WITH Merits) beat an A+ base weapon. What is your point?

Ridill makes it work if you have the merits locked in (And skewed to hell as you mentioned in your example). Even then, is there a problem with not using a Non-A Weapon? If that's the weapon SE intended for us to use, then I think they did damn well in making sure we use what we should be using.

A Ridill WAR will be able to compete, but it won't outshine a Gaxe WAR. Ridill is a relatively rare weapon though, it's not relic rare, but it by itself doesn't make onehanded weapons okay.

The example you just gave puts a lot more differences at work than simply Dual Wield v 2H weapons. Compare WSs from a Dagger and Polearm. Even BEFORE the 2H update, Polearm WSs outranked Dagger WS.

Penta would've been stronger (due to coming from a higher damage weapon), but Evisc was/is no slouch. Before the update, if you dicked around with piercing, dagger was comparable with polearm. Now it isn't only slower, yet harder hitting on normal hits and WS, but also way more accurate.

Anyways, this argument you're trying to present is irrelevant to the conversation.

My point is: a WAR, who can use both onehanded and twohanded, will always use twohanded, even if it has a skillgap. The problem with that is, there are other DD's who can *only* use onehanded weapons. They weren't on the S-tier of WAR or MNK preupdate, but they got overtaken even more (and MNK didn't get much either).

More importantly, you miss out the main class in this discussion: MNK. Do MNK use Staffs over H2H? No? I wonder why? Same type of DMG (Blunt), yet one is 2H and the other isn't. Your argument falls here.

You wouldn't use a B weapon except situationally (eg piercing at colibri camp), so no, my argument doesn't fall. Staff also has crap for WS's, unless you like 300tp full swing.

More importantly, what does this have to do with grips? The fact is that MNK does excel at DoT and grips will NOT solve the problem, which is that they cannot compare in terms of spike damage to other melees.

MNK could use a small update, but grips won't solve it. I agree completely with that. I'm just saying that grips are not what suddenly rocketed twohanders up there, they were just a bandaid. The changed calculations put them up there (ridiculously so, before it was tuned down a bit). MNK sort of falls inbetween onehanders and twohanders, but MNK still got turned down a few notches. Giving onehanded onry users in general (MNK, THF, NIN, DNC, BST, PUP...) a small update would be more of a solution than adding grips to MNK. Of course, most of those jobs could use some more jobspecific polish (i'm looking at you BST), but not all of them need as many changes (MNK NIN and THF don't have it too bad compared to the others).

[Greatguardian]

Hey i agree, they're pretty good at hiting sky god/HNMS hell anything with moderlty high defense for 10-20 damage. they are also VERY good at taking shit loads of damage without shadows.

If this is a shot at Mnk's "low damage weapons" not being able "to hit more than 0 like the 2hands", please just don't. Anyone hitting for tiny damage *because of a high defense* are going to be hitting for shit because their Attack rating is shit. Does being a Mnk, or a Sam, change any of that? No. Sam is lucky in this regard because they have a WS that ignores defense. Mnk can still hit plenty hard. Or rather, other jobs with equivalent attack ratings will be hitting for just as much shit dmg as Mnk. Do we eat Meat at shit like this? Not often. Why? Because our overall damage is higher with acc. Do we get nice big numbers that make us happy in the pants? No. But we do plenty over the course of the fight. Mnk's an unsung hero in fights like these. People don't notice the massive amount of hitting racking up their damage total. If that's not the playstyle for you, go level Sam.

As for negating damage. Yes, I'm sure a 65% melee counter rate is going to do shit-all for us without shadows compared to, like, dread spikes or seigan.. (read: No. Just No.)

[Yugl]

A Ridill WAR will be able to compete, but it won't outshine a Gaxe WAR. Ridill is a relatively rare weapon though, it's not relic rare, but it by itself doesn't make onehanded weapons okay.

Ridill proves my point perfectly. By utilizing Dual Wield, you can make a lesser skilled weapon compete with a higher skilled 2H weapon. I said if the WAR is MERITED for Ridill (Just as how in your example the WAR was merited for Axe), he will most likely do more damage dual wielding than using G Axe. So just as how you claim a merited Axe WAR will still do more DMG using G Axe over Axe/Axe, a WAR merited for Ridill (Axe/Sword Merits) will likely do more with Ridill. That's the problem with trying to assert that simply having access to a 2H weapon makes it better than a Dual Wield/H2H counterpart.

Penta would've been stronger (due to coming from a higher damage weapon), but Evisc was/is no slouch. Before the update, if you dicked around with piercing, dagger was comparable with polearm. Now it isn't only slower, yet harder hitting on normal hits and WS, but also way more accurate.

You just admitted that Penta would have done more damage. Even if the 2H update didn't occur, Polearm would outdo Dagger for two reasons. One, the WS is stronger. Two, during the same patch as the 2H upgrade, Penta's modifier changed to increase ACC (ACC Varies with TP) and Penta's ACC penalty was removed later on. Note that these changes are independent of the 2H update itself.

My point is: a WAR, who can use both onehanded and twohanded, will always use twohanded, even if it has a skillgap. The problem with that is, there are other DD's who can *only* use onehanded weapons. They weren't on the S-tier of WAR or MNK preupdate, but they got overtaken even more (and MNK didn't get much either).

That's wrong though. I've even pointed out that a Ridill merited WAR will use Ridill over G Axe because those merits entrench the WAR. Once you're set to use Ridill, you pretty much have to stick with it for merits since you give up a lot on G Axe. To say that a G axe will win in EVERY situation regardless of merits is ridiculous.

Spoiler: show

Bottom line is that in order for Ridill to not suck you have to gear and merit around it pretty much 100%

So looking at WAR we have 2 options:
First
#1 Manage to acquire a Ridill
#2 8 sword merits 4-8 Axe merits - hope you don't have any other DD jobs
#3 You go buy a Cuchulain's (we all know my stance on this but sorry, it exists now therefor it's a requirement for Ridill)
#4 Adjust your merits to 5 zerk 5 agg
#5 Enjoy your Ridill

Second
#1 Don't suck at assault + have ISP -> Get Perdu Voulge
#2 8 Great axe merits and whatever the fuck else you want for your other jobs
#3 Still go buy a Cuchulain's mantle (but if you don't have one it won't impact you as much)
#4 Adjust your merits to 2Zerk 2AGG 5DA 1WC or 2zerk 3agg 5DA
#5 Have highest damage potential WAR will ever reach with /SAM and, provided your gear is good, still have an extremely capable and in most cases better than Ridill DD as /NIN.

Ridill locks you in as perma WAR/NIN - you will never get to maximize the utility of /SAM.

Obvious plug for Cuchulain's is obvious, ignore that.

Bottom line: My Kikoku trucked my Ridill in every camp I ever brought it to. My Great Axe build trucked my Ridill in every situation I ever compared them.

The better your gear is on the whole the more you'll get out of Gaxe over Ridill, it's just the way things are. It's a nice toy, no fucking question, but unless the only thing you do in game are lolibri or less - put it the fuck away.

Talking WAR only here, stfu THF farmers.

Edit for above: I full-time seigan anytime I'm /SAM on anything. There's just no way to switch around efficiently enough without being a sponge.

You wouldn't use a B weapon except situationally (eg piercing at colibri camp), so no, my argument doesn't fall. Staff also has crap for WS's, unless you like 300tp full swing.

Your argument is that 2H > H2H/1H Weapon always. So yes, it does fall. The bolded proves my point even further (Especially on the Penta note). The 2H Update simply make *EXISTING* factors more potent. Whether someone uses a 2H weapon is dependent on external factors. WS Damage, Camp (For Piercing Damage), /SAM, Upgraded WS (Raging Rush/Penta/Kings Justice/Drakesbane), and other factors made this possible. You're suggesting that the 2H update went too far when really, it fixed a problem in FFXI. Who are the ones truly hurt by the update? MNK are barely hurt. If camps were skill blunt+ I doubt they would be complaining about anything but spike damage, which was a problem BEFORE the update. THFs, PUP, BST, and other DDs were facing issues before the update. The change from Axe/Sword for WAR and DRKs represents a *FIX* in FFXI. The intention was for both to use their respective main weapons and it worked. Furthermore, this change came about through a culmination of other updates mentioned earlier, not simply through the 2H upgrade itself.

MNK could use a small update, but grips won't solve it. I agree completely with that. I'm just saying that grips are not what suddenly rocketed twohanders up there, they were just a bandaid. The changed calculations put them up there (ridiculously so, before it was tuned down a bit). MNK sort of falls inbetween onehanders and twohanders, but MNK still got turned down a few notches. Giving onehanded onry users in general (MNK, THF, NIN, DNC, BST, PUP...) a small update would be more of a solution than adding grips to MNK. Of course, most of those jobs could use some more jobspecific polish (i'm looking at you BST), but not all of them need as many changes (MNK NIN and THF don't have it too bad compared to the others).

The bold is what I'm getting at as well. Trying to make overhauls on broad components of FFXI tends to create unseen consequences. If there is an update, it's best not to make them Dual Wield/H2H updates, but instead, specific updates. After all, since there are some classes capable of changing from 2H to 1H at will, you really don't affect these classes in the same way as those who cannot make that change. Make Dual Wield better than 2H and WAR will still be strong. Make 2H better than Dual wield and WAR will still be strong. It's never changing for classes such as WAR who can make this change. It simply changes the scope for other classes who are locked into one or the other. That's why specific updates are needed.

[Baha]

Ridill proves my point perfectly. By utilizing Dual Wield, you can make a lesser skilled weapon compete with a higher skilled 2H weapon. I said if the WAR is MERITED for Ridill (Just as how in your example the WAR was merited for Axe), he will most likely do more damage dual wielding than using G Axe. So just as how you claim a merited Axe WAR will still do more DMG using G Axe over Axe/Axe, a WAR merited for Ridill (Axe/Sword Merits) will likely do more with Ridill. That's the problem with trying to assert that simply having access to a 2H weapon makes it better than a Dual Wield/H2H counterpart.

A fully meritted axe/ridill WAR will barely outdo an unmeritted Gaxe WAR, and a meritted Gaxe WAR will kick his ass. Sath's post you quoted proved exactly that. (or if you will, I'm reading it that way) I think it's not hard to see the fallacy in using Ridill as an example to say that 1h weapons are in a good place. Ridill shouldn't be stupidly overpowered (pre update DRK/NIN was pretty damn comparable with axe/rid as opposed to scythe DRK, and that situation was bullshit). I'm perfectly fine with Gaxe being the weapon of choice for WAR's attempting to do their best, it's only natural.

You just admitted that Penta would have done more damage. Even if the 2H update didn't occur, Polearm would outdo Dagger for two reasons. One, the WS is stronger. Two, during the same patch as the 2H upgrade, Penta's modifier changed to increase ACC (ACC Varies with TP) and Penta's ACC penalty was removed later on. Note that these changes are independent of the 2H update itself.

Evisc was comparable with Penta, a little under, but it's still a damn decent WS. Evisc would do less, but tp-rate would've allowed you to do more of them to make up. The buffed accuracy polearm gets makes that irrelevant now though.

That's wrong though. I've even pointed out that a Ridill merited WAR will use Ridill over G Axe because those merits entrench the WAR. Once you're set to use Ridill, you pretty much have to stick with it for merits since you give up a lot on G Axe. To say that a G axe will win in EVERY situation regardless of merits is ridiculous.

Gaxe against double axes will always win, regardless of merits. Axe/ridill with max merits might be able to hang with Gaxe, but they're better off switching to Gaxe, even if they stay /NIN. You *need* a Ridill to even be able to compete. Again, I'm fine with WAR having to gravitate to Gaxe, their best weapon. I'm just (and perhaps badly) trying to illustrate that the gap between onehanded and twohanded is very, very large. Unmeritted Gaxe > 8/8 Man/Jugg. Not a problem for WAR, they can just switch to Gaxe and go about their merry way. Other onehanded jobs cannot, and they were already under that Man/Jugg WAR.

Your argument is that 2H > H2H/1H Weapon always. So yes, it does fall.

Yeah, uh lol. If I gave the impression to make that retarded a blanket statement, I apologise, but I'm pretty sure I didn't. You need a decent WS and a decent weapon selection at least as well.

The bolded proves my point even further (Especially on the Penta note).

Again: the extra penta damage would, preupdate, have been made up with extra eviscerations (lower delay, offhand multihit). Not a point anymore because polearm got a nice smidge of extra accuracy.

The 2H Update simply make *EXISTING* factors more potent. Whether someone uses a 2H weapon is dependent on external factors. WS Damage, Camp (For Piercing Damage), /SAM, Upgraded WS (Raging Rush/Penta/Kings Justice/Drakesbane), and other factors made this possible. You're suggesting that the 2H update went too far when really, it fixed a problem in FFXI.
Who are the ones truly hurt by the update? MNK are barely hurt. If camps were skill blunt+ I doubt they would be complaining about anything but spike damage, which was a problem BEFORE the update. THFs, PUP, BST, and other DDs were facing issues before the update. The change from Axe/Sword for WAR and DRKs represents a *FIX* in FFXI. The intention was for both to use their respective main weapons and it worked. Furthermore, this change came about through a culmination of other updates mentioned earlier, not simply through the 2H upgrade itself.

I - and this might come as a surprise to you - agree completely. Gaxe being so underpowered it was laughable, DRK's dualwielding, all twohanders in general being secondrate DD's. Giant problem, and the update (and the additional updates like making /SAM into a great subjob for twohanders and the WS updates etc) solved a lot of it. MNK was barely hurt, they don't absolutely need an upgrade, but it's just my personal feeling that they should be at the front of the DD's, not just close to the front.

The bold is what I'm getting at as well. Trying to make overhauls on broad components of FFXI tends to create unseen consequences. If there is an update, it's best not to make them Dual Wield/H2H updates, but instead, specific updates. After all, since there are some classes capable of changing from 2H to 1H at will, you really don't affect these classes in the same way as those who cannot make that change. Make Dual Wield better than 2H and WAR will still be strong. Make 2H better than Dual wield and WAR will still be strong. It's never changing for classes such as WAR who can make this change. It simply changes the scope for other classes who are locked into one or the other. That's why specific updates are needed.

I agree, but the 2H update WAS a broad overhaul, and did create unforeseen consequences. And one of the biggest reasons for the overhaul (WAR supremacy) is one of the problems you see complaining about again.

I've always preferred dualwielding over twohanders, but I felt bad for having to ask a warrior to stop dicking around with gaxe and switch to his axes. Now the situation's been reversed, more jobspecific updates would solve it for the other jobs, certainly. But giving WAR, the one job who can really switch between dualwielding and twohanders, the choice that they are advertised to have would be really nice. With Ridill looming it would be hell to make it balanced though, if you want to improve axes you're bound to run into the axe/ridill problem again. But hey, they created their own damn problem. ;p

[Yugl]

A fully meritted axe/ridill WAR will barely outdo an unmeritted Gaxe WAR, and a meritted Gaxe WAR will kick his ass. Sath's post you quoted proved exactly that. (or if you will, I'm reading it that way) I think it's not hard to see the fallacy in using Ridill as an example to say that 1h weapons are in a good place. Ridill shouldn't be stupidly overpowered (pre update DRK/NIN was pretty damn comparable with axe/rid as opposed to scythe DRK, and that situation was bullshit). I'm perfectly fine with Gaxe being the weapon of choice for WAR's attempting to do their best, it's only natural.

You stated that regardless of merits, a WAR using Ridill will always do less than if he had used G Axe. Now you're saying the Ridill WAR will barely, but WILL out damage the G Axe WAR. Which is it?

In case you need a reference:

My point is: a WAR, who can use both onehanded and twohanded, will always use twohanded, even if it has a skillgap.

Evisc was comparable with Penta, a little under, but it's still a damn decent WS. Evisc would do less, but tp-rate would've allowed you to do more of them to make up. The buffed accuracy polearm gets makes that irrelevant now though.

The buffs to Polearm WS were not apart of the 2H boost. The Hasso and Seigan implementations were not apart of the 2H boost. Yet, as long as these two factors are in play, Polearm on WAR will out damage Dagger. That along with the WS portion means this change would have happened without the 2H update, and the whole reason for changing to a piercing weapon is camp related, not 2H update related. You can't sit there and tell me the *sole* reason for these changes in playstyle are attributed to the 2H update.

Gaxe against double axes will always win, regardless of merits. Axe/ridill with max merits might be able to hang with Gaxe, but they're better off switching to Gaxe, even if they stay /NIN. You *need* a Ridill to even be able to compete. Again, I'm fine with WAR having to gravitate to Gaxe, their best weapon. I'm just (and perhaps badly) trying to illustrate that the gap between onehanded and twohanded is very, very large. Unmeritted Gaxe > 8/8 Man/Jugg. Not a problem for WAR, they can just switch to Gaxe and go about their merry way. Other onehanded jobs cannot, and they were already under that Man/Jugg WAR.

Every time you admit that a WAR merited for Ridill purposes can compete against a G Axe WAR, you prove your own point wrong. If the 2H update did go overboard and destroy the difference between Dual Wield and 2H, Ridill wouldn't come close even with merits. More importantly, Ridill wouldn't be the sole weapon capable of putting up a fight. The fact is that by trying to attribute all the differences between Dual Wielders and 2Hs to the 2H update, you're ignorantly forgetting other factors in play. If it were responsible for the difference, then Dual Wielding a +20 ACC weapon should almost account for the difference in damage right? Wrong. Due to the new abilities of /SAM and the goodies that come with it, 2H weapons still reign supreme. It's these other factors that really make 2H win over 1H weapons

Yeah, uh lol. If I gave the impression to make that retarded a blanket statement, I apologise, but I'm pretty sure I didn't. You need a decent WS and a decent weapon selection at least as well.

You're unable to make a onehanded weapon work in merits if it's not at least A, that's my point. Blau/Joy on WAR (both B weapons) won't compete, yet they have both the traits you listed. Even if you had 8 sword and 8 dagger merits you would, at the very, very best, barely be able to stay within reach of an unmeritted polearm WAR. Why? They're not twohanded weapons.

In this post you stated that THE reason why WARs use Polearm over Dagger/Sword is because one is 2H and the other isn't. However, as I proved earlier with the Hasso/Polearm WS/Other updates not involving the 2H boost, that is simply untrue. There are more factors than simply "It's a 2H Weapon" that make Polearm more competitive than Dual Wield.

Again: the extra penta damage would, preupdate, have been made up with extra eviscerations (lower delay, offhand multihit). Not a point anymore because polearm got a nice smidge of extra accuracy.

Lets say the 2H update didn't occur. Are you telling me that Hasso (+10% HASTE, +5 ACC, +5STR), Penta boosts, and WS type would NOT make Polearm > Dagger? If so, you're kidding yourself.

MNK was barely hurt, they don't absolutely need an upgrade, but it's just my personal feeling that they should be at the front of the DD's, not just close to the front.

This is the point that I and other have been making: MNK are at the front. They have problems with spike damage, but their DoT is fine. The only reason people neglect them is due to changes in camp types. Up coming events tend to favor MNKs as its about DOT and killing multiple small mobs. If there is a problem with MNKs, it's their spike damage, but with recent zerg tactics and the decreasing importance of spike damage, it's not that much of an issue.

I agree, but the 2H update WAS a broad overhaul, and did create unforeseen consequences. And one of the biggest reasons for the overhaul (WAR supremacy) is one of the problems you see complaining about again.

What are these unforeseen consequences? The only one badly by the 2H update was NIN, which isn't that bad considering they were previously top tier DDs and tanks. WAR went to main weapon. DRK went to main weapon. MNK are only overshadowed (Where they previously were not) by DRGs. I consider MNK v DRK to be dependent on the situation. DRGs earned the right to kick MNK ass after years of playing the bitch, and the fact that camps suit piercing DMG means their place should be ensured. Other 1H DDs were lousy to begin with. BLU is probably the only DD that arguably was unfairly screwed in all of this, but the problems associated with BLU heavily associate with MP and WS capabilities. THF and BST would be crap even without the update. You're over exaggerating the effects of the 2H update by saying that it went too far considering the goals it set.

I've always preferred dualwielding over twohanders, but I felt bad for having to ask a warrior to stop dicking around with gaxe and switch to his axes. Now the situation's been reversed, more jobspecific updates would solve it for the other jobs, certainly. But giving WAR, the one job who can really switch between dualwielding and twohanders, the choice that they are advertised to have would be really nice. With Ridill looming it would be hell to make it balanced though, if you want to improve axes you're bound to run into the axe/ridill problem again. But hey, they created their own damn problem. ;p

FFXI will never allow a situation in which the choice between two weapons are equal. With all the parsing and number crunching that goes on, there will always be one weapon that dominates over the rest. Of course, you'll have technical situations where another weapon is better, but that is irrelevant of the Dual Wield/2H Weapons debate.

[Baha]

You stated that regardless of merits, a WAR using Ridill will always do less than if he had used G Axe. Now you're saying the Ridill WAR will barely, but WILL out damage the G Axe WAR. Which is it?

I believe it will always be outdone, or if it somehow ends up on top, it will BARELY do so. A maxmeritted dualwielding WAR with a relatively rare weapon MIGHT outdo an unmeritted Gaxe WAR.

The buffs to Polearm WS were not apart of the 2H boost. The Hasso and Seigan implementations were not apart of the 2H boost. Yet, as long as these two factors are in play, Polearm on WAR will out damage Dagger. That along with the WS portion means this change would have happened without the 2H update, and the whole reason for changing to a piercing weapon is camp related, not 2H update related. You can't sit there and tell me the *sole* reason for these changes in playstyle are attributed to the 2H update.

I won't, but neither can you deny that the accuracy difference is the biggest reason in making B weapons suddenly (situationally) viable.

Every time you admit that a WAR merited for Ridill purposes can compete against a G Axe WAR, you prove your own point wrong. If the 2H update did go overboard and destroy the difference between Dual Wield and 2H, Ridill wouldn't come close even with merits.

Ridill is, maybe, the only exception to my point, which is why I focussed on Axe/Axe WAR's. I'm wondering where you see Ridill remaining competetive though, I see it being called a toy more than anything.

More importantly, Ridill wouldn't be the sole weapon capable of putting up a fight.

According to you it beats it, I think sometimes it will, but as soon as you put in 8 Gaxe merits, it won't, and you would not even necesarilly have to switch to /SAM for it.

The fact is that by trying to attribute all the differences between Dual Wielders and 2Hs to the 2H update, you're ignorantly forgetting other factors in play. If it were responsible for the difference, then Dual Wielding a +20 ACC weapon should almost account for the difference in damage right? Wrong. Due to the new abilities of /SAM and the goodies that come with it, 2H weapons still reign supreme. It's these other factors that really make 2H win over 1H weapons.

Give all onehanders the extra acc, and then WAR will be able to choose between playing it safe with Axe/axe, but do better with more risk on /SAM. As long as their merits are in the right order, of course!
I think giving the extra acc from DEX would do way more than just that, but if that's the end result, I'm fine with that.

In this post you stated that THE reason why WARs use Polearm over Dagger/Sword is because one is 2H and the other isn't. However, as I proved earlier with the Hasso/Polearm WS/Other updates not involving the 2H boost, that is simply untrue. There are more factors than simply "It's a 2H Weapon" that make Polearm more competitive than Dual Wield.

Of course there are, I'm targetting the 2h update because it was the broadest one and indiscriminate. After haste, accuracy is the best stat to gun for as a DD.

Lets say the 2H update didn't occur. Are you telling me that Hasso (+10% HASTE, +5 ACC, +5STR), Penta boosts, and WS type would NOT make Polearm > Dagger? If so, you're kidding yourself.

Hasso would make up the difference from dualwield pretty much by itself yeah. Penta buffs would push it over probably. Twohanders got these very specific updates (/SAM's Hasso and Seigan to provide a counterweight to /NIN's Dualwield and Utsu, improved WS's here and there) and a very broad update.

What are these unforeseen consequences? The only one badly by the 2H update was NIN, which isn't that bad considering they were previously top tier DDs and tanks. WAR went to main weapon. DRK went to main weapon. MNK are only overshadowed (Where they previously were not) by DRGs. I consider MNK v DRK to be dependent on the situation. DRGs earned the right to kick MNK ass after years of playing the bitch, and the fact that camps suit piercing DMG means their place should be ensured. Other 1H DDs were lousy to begin with. BLU is probably the only DD that arguably was unfairly screwed in all of this, but the problems associated with BLU heavily associate with MP and WS capabilities. THF and BST would be crap even without the update. You're over exaggerating the effects of the 2H update by saying that it went too far considering the goals it set.

(the DRK problem only presented itself on Ridill , so it wasn't THAT bad)
So if the other onehanded DD's were rubbish before the update, they deserve to be pushed down even further? It wasn't the intention, but it's still what happened.

FFXI will never allow a situation in which the choice between two weapons are equal. With all the parsing and number crunching that goes on, there will always be one weapon that dominates over the rest. Of course, you'll have technical situations where another weapon is better, but that is irrelevant of the Dual Wield/2H Weapons debate.

The choice doesn't need to be equal, the choice should be fair.

Maxmeritted 8/8 Man/Jugg WAR/NIN, when switching to his unmeritted Perdu, will get better results. Despite the 9 skill level difference, without switching to the subjob better suited for a twohander. An A+ weapon SHOULD do better than an A- weapon, but an A+ weapon shouldnt be able to beat an A++ weapon without using a subjob. Ridill all you want, but you shouldn't need it to be able to dualwield.