Do you think Hand-to-hand weapons should allow Grips?

**Wolfknight** · 2009-05-15 21:06

Originally Posted by Baha

Maxmeritted 8/8 Man/Jugg WAR/NIN, when switching to his unmeritted Perdu, will get better results. Despite the 9 skill level difference, without switching to the subjob better suited for a twohander. An A+ weapon SHOULD do better than an A- weapon, but an A+ weapon shouldnt be able to beat an A++ weapon without using a subjob. Ridill all you want, but you shouldn't need it to be able to dualwield.

problem is buff to 1 handed weapons will over power multihit weapons[joyouse, ridill], while 2 handers have nothing to compare really

**Baha** · 2009-05-15 21:31

Originally Posted by Wolfknight

problem is buff to 1 handed weapons will over power multihit weapons[joyouse, ridill], while 2 handers have nothing to compare really

Yeah that's true, sadly enough. :/

**Yugl** · 2009-05-15 21:54

Originally Posted by Baha

I won't, but neither can you deny that the accuracy difference is the biggest reason in making B weapons suddenly (situationally) viable.

I can say it's not the biggest reason to switch to B rank weapons. First off, if it were simply about that, WAR would have no reason to change to B rank weapons. MNKs don't change to B rank weapons. In the case of the WAR, why not use Scythe, G Sword, or other 2H weapons that are B ranked, but higher than Polearm? It's because of the camp. The CAMP is what makes them change to situational B ranked weapons.

Ridill is, maybe, the only exception to my point, which is why I focussed on Axe/Axe WAR's. I'm wondering where you see Ridill remaining competetive though, I see it being called a toy more than anything.

Give all onehanders the extra acc, and then WAR will be able to choose between playing it safe with Axe/axe, but do better with more risk on /SAM. As long as their merits are in the right order, of course!
I think giving the extra acc from DEX would do way more than just that, but if that's the end result, I'm fine with that.

See, I don't think that would be the case. If 1H suddenly gained +20 ACC, it would not change the situation. In NA PTs, it's about big risk for big reward in order to maximize MP. In JP PTs, you'll be asked to sub NIN, and quite frankly, in that situation the difference between Dual Wield and 2H isn't as grand as you make it appear (Exception: Perdu Voulge because of the ACC and ATT). No matter how you look at it, Hasso (+10% Haste, +5 ACC, and +5 STR) are the biggest contributions to 2H melees. Before the path, most 2H were capable of using Meat unlike some 1H. Slapping ~20 ACC onto 2H weapons is not the reason is not the reason people changed styles. It's more because of Hasso and Seigan.

Of course there are, I'm targetting the 2h update because it was the broadest one and indiscriminate. After haste, accuracy is the best stat to gun for as a DD.

Well I'm saying that the 2H update didn't overdo the fix and was not as influential as the individual weaponskill changes and the SAM update. Is it surprising that SAM took the number one spot after the 2H update? Not at all.

(the DRK problem only presented itself on Ridill , so it wasn't THAT bad)
So if the other onehanded DD's were rubbish before the update, they deserve to be pushed down even further? It wasn't the intention, but it's still what happened.

DRKs would Axe/Axe and out damage their Scythe counterparts, I think that posed a serious problem.

Make them worse? They're in the same situation they were before. Lesser tier DDs. The update was not an effort to event out DDs, that will have to done through individual updates. The effort was to fix the difference in 2H and Dual Wield DMG. Was it successful? Yes, because it was complemented with other features such as Hasso. Did it go overboard? No. ACC difference is not the main reason G Axe Triumphs over Axe/Axe. ACC is not the main reason Scythe is used over Axe/Axe. It did not cause MNKs to change to Staff. It did not cause NIN to use G Katana. I'm not sure about BST, but I don't see any using Scythe seriously when they can Dual Wield.

The choice doesn't need to be equal, the choice should be fair.

Maxmeritted 8/8 Man/Jugg WAR/NIN, when switching to his unmeritted Perdu, will get better results. Despite the 9 skill level difference, without switching to the subjob better suited for a twohander. An A+ weapon SHOULD do better than an A- weapon, but an A+ weapon shouldnt be able to beat an A++ weapon without using a subjob. Ridill all you want, but you shouldn't need it to be able to dualwield.

You're forgetting the other factors that make a G Axe WAR do more damage than a Axe/Axe WAR. The change for ATT++ to Haste ++ in XP PTs made 2H more potent because the faster you swing, the better it is to hit for more or swing more (2-3x Weapons). WS changes (Raging Rush Critical hit and King's Justice) made it possible.

Furthermore, I could argue that an Axe/Axe WAR will not beat an Axe/Ridill WAR. Is that caused by the 2H update? No. Earlier you suggested that giving the ACC bonus to 1H weapons would allow WARs to change to Axe/Axe and do as much as a WAR with G Axe. Yet, at the same time, you constantly say it's unfair that the HIGHER skilled weapons are replaced with lesser skilled weapons. If what you're saying is true, then a 8 Axe Merits Axe/Axe WAR would out damage a G Axe WAR if he had +12 ACC over the G Axe WAR. Is that the case? Hell no. If both managed to cap ACC without gear, would they be the same? No. The G Axe would win because there are specific factors that make it more powerful than Axe.

**Baha** · 2009-05-16 00:36

Originally Posted by Yugl

I can say it's not the biggest reason to switch to B rank weapons. First off, if it were simply about that, WAR would have no reason to change to B rank weapons. MNKs don't change to B rank weapons. In the case of the WAR, why not use Scythe, G Sword, or other 2H weapons that are B ranked, but higher than Polearm? It's because of the camp. The CAMP is what makes them change to situational B ranked weapons.

Situationally. Polearm has piercing bonus, we both know that. The 20ish extra acc still is huge.

See, I don't think that would be the case. If 1H suddenly gained +20 ACC, it would not change the situation. In NA PTs, it's about big risk for big reward in order to maximize MP. In JP PTs, you'll be asked to sub NIN, and quite frankly, in that situation the difference between Dual Wield and 2H isn't as grand as you make it appear (Exception: Perdu Voulge because of the ACC and ATT).

Again, I'd be fine with that situation. WAR/SAM Gaxe > WAR/NIN Axes > WAR/NIN Gaxe
Perdu isn't *really* an exception because the dualwielding WAR is bound to use a Maneater with the same latent.

No matter how you look at it, Hasso (+10% Haste, +5 ACC, and +5 STR) are the biggest contributions to 2H melees. Before the path, most 2H were capable of using Meat unlike some 1H. Slapping ~20 ACC onto 2H weapons is not the reason is not the reason people changed styles. It's more because of Hasso and Seigan.

I don't think it is. Hasso made up for not having faster hits from Dualwield, yes, but it's not the biggest change in my eyes. The reason twohanders can eat meat and still get capped or near-capped acc is the DEX calculation. 20ish free acc is really a big deal in my eyes.

DRKs would Axe/Axe and out damage their Scythe counterparts, I think that posed a serious problem.

Like I said, it was retarded. I meant that you needed Ridill to really outdo them, dual axes wasn't that hot on DRK once you got Guillotine.

Spoiler: show

Needing Ridill to do it well doesn't make the problem any smaller, but less widespread, which is what I should've said to avoid this confusion.

Make them worse? They're in the same situation they were before. Lesser tier DDs. The update was not an effort to event out DDs, that will have to done through individual updates. The effort was to fix the difference in 2H and Dual Wield DMG. Was it successful? Yes, because it was complemented with other features such as Hasso.

Axe/Axe WAR is now a lesser tier DD, other onehanders are now lesser-lesser tier DD's. Their situation didn't change, but their position in the order of DD's certainly did drop. If the top suddenly gets higher, you got fucked.

Did it go overboard? No. ACC difference is not the main reason G Axe Triumphs over Axe/Axe. ACC is not the main reason Scythe is used over Axe/Axe. It did not cause MNKs to change to Staff. It did not cause NIN to use G Katana. I'm not sure about BST, but I don't see any using Scythe seriously when they can Dual Wield.

Then why is an unmeritted Gaxe WAR/NIN better than a meritted dual axe WAR/NIN? The skill difference is there, Rampage is certainly a good WS, Man/Jugg or hell, even Wood/Man are no badly statted weapons. If it'd at least need Hasso we'd be getting somewhere.

Scythe on WAR is B, but it's also slashing, so it'd be pointless. Furthermore, neither WAR or BST get a good scythe WS, nor do they get a good selection of weapons. NIN gets C Gkatana (also slashing) and none of the decent WS's. MNK Staff is B, also of the same weapontype as their main and has shit for WS's. With polearm both SAM and WAR get B, relatively shit for weaponselection, but at least a great WS, and hey, it's piercing.

You're forgetting the other factors that make a G Axe WAR do more damage than a Axe/Axe WAR. The change for ATT++ to Haste ++ in XP PTs made 2H more potent because the faster you swing, the better it is to hit for more or swing more (2-3x Weapons). WS changes (Raging Rush Critical hit and King's Justice) made it possible.

Change for Attack to Haste? What do you mean?

Furthermore, I could argue that an Axe/Axe WAR will not beat an Axe/Ridill WAR. Is that caused by the 2H update? No. Earlier you suggested that giving the ACC bonus to 1H weapons would allow WARs to change to Axe/Axe and do as much as a WAR with G Axe. Yet, at the same time, you constantly say it's unfair that the HIGHER skilled weapons are replaced with lesser skilled weapons.

I must be typing really badly if you read that. Higher skilled weapons should, of course do more than lower skilled ones.

292 Gaxe (max merits) > 285 Axes (max merits) > 276 Gaxe > 269 Axes
and not, as it is now
292 Gaxe > 276 Gaxe > 285 Axes > 269 Axes

It's that way even without changing out of WAR/NIN. If you put /SAM into the equation, maybe an unmeritted Gaxe WAR/SAM should outdo a meritted Axes WAR/NIN, but Hasso's not even necesarry to tip the scales.

Also: Ridill is an overpowered piece of shit. All multihit weapons are, but it's pretty much the only one that is multihit, but still keeping a great DMG rating. You could say the brokeness of it is offset by it's rarity, but it's not *that* rare.

Well I'm saying that the 2H update didn't overdo the fix and was not as influential as the individual weaponskill changes and the SAM update. Is it surprising that SAM took the number one spot after the 2H update? Not at all.

If what you're saying is true, then a 8 Axe Merits Axe/Axe WAR would out damage a G Axe WAR if he had +12 ACC over the G Axe WAR. Is that the case? Hell no. If both managed to cap ACC without gear, would they be the same? No. The G Axe would win because there are specific factors that make it more powerful than Axe.

Look: (forgive me for not remembering a chronological order)
Twohanders pre update were in a bad position, a solution was definitely needed.
Hasso and Seigan: great, a subjob for twohanders that gives an offensive and defensive advantage (see: dualwield+Utsu).
Grips: Smallish update, but was still welcome.
WS updates: Also helped at closing the gap, definitely.
Changed calculations: Twohanders now hit harder, 'scool, they should, swinging slower and all, they did this preupdate, but not by enough. Now they're more accurate too, and this is the part which I think tipped the balance.

Giving onehanders the extra acc from DEX might not make up for the extra changes, but it'd help a shitton. If you'd at least have to go /SAM to bridge a 9-skill gap, it'd be a start. A broad update like that would probably have unforeseen consequences, and it'd be hard to balance with WAR/NIN and Ridill. Jobspecific updates for onehanded jobs would be much safer, but making axes less of a "lol retard" choice would be nice.

**Starr** · 2009-05-16 04:22

Originally Posted by Thorny

20% delay- through snapshot, mirke, barbut

Are you telling me that Barbut is 5% Snapshot?

**Kintups** · 2009-05-16 09:31

yes, more equip...more FUN

**Yugl** · 2009-05-16 10:46

Originally Posted by Baha

Again, I'd be fine with that situation. WAR/SAM Gaxe > WAR/NIN Axes > WAR/NIN Gaxe
Perdu isn't *really* an exception because the dualwielding WAR is bound to use a Maneater with the same latent.

If they had the ACC bonus WAR would still be using G Axe > Axe/Axe.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/74844...ml#post2720873

If you go through this math train, you'll find that WS difference heavily constitutes the difference in damage.

I don't think it is. Hasso made up for not having faster hits from Dualwield, yes, but it's not the biggest change in my eyes. The reason twohanders can eat meat and still get capped or near-capped acc is the DEX calculation. 20ish free acc is really a big deal in my eyes.

2H DD were using Meat + ACC gear BEFORE the update. I don't understand why you think otherwise unless you yourself never played 2H DD (Or didn't play it well) before the update.

Like I said, it was retarded. I meant that you needed Ridill to really outdo them, dual axes wasn't that hot on DRK once you got Guillotine.

Spoiler: show

Needing Ridill to do it well doesn't make the problem any smaller, but less widespread, which is what I should've said to avoid this confusion.

With good gear you could beat Scythe DRK with dual axes. You needed top of the line gear, but it was doable for excellent damage.

Axe/Axe WAR is now a lesser tier DD, other onehanders are now lesser-lesser tier DD's. Their situation didn't change, but their position in the order of DD's certainly did drop. If the top suddenly gets higher, you got fucked.

We're looking at classes themselves since WAR can easily use 2H or Dual Wield at will. It would be ignorant to assume that WAR HAS to use one weapon. Having said that, as I mentioned earlier, only NIN is the one to drop in terms of tier because of the 2H update. Other changes in the scale would have changed anyways because of other updates (Hasso/Angon/WS Fixes/New WSs). Making the worst DDs seem even worse does NOT change their position. When making a PT, you don't say "Well THF isn't THAT much worse than SAM, so maybe I'll invite him over the SAM"; you invite the BEST DD for your PT (Not going to include gear since you don't know what they're wearing). There is no real comparative measure when choosing DDs for an event or PT. You basically look for the top tier group of DDs and select one as melee for your PT. The only DD to leave that top tier group due to the 2H update is NIN. MNKs are perfectly fine DDs, but the ability of other DDs to take advantage of piercing weapons makes other DDs more powerful. THF/BST/PUP/BLU (Outside BLU Burn) would never be considered for a PT before or after the update.

Then why is an unmeritted Gaxe WAR/NIN better than a meritted dual axe WAR/NIN? The skill difference is there, Rampage is certainly a good WS, Man/Jugg or hell, even Wood/Man are no badly statted weapons. If it'd at least need Hasso we'd be getting somewhere.

WS Difference. Go read the link I posted and you'll see that the math people are showing that G Axe makes up for its LACK of DMG against Dual Wield through WS damage. The sheer difference in WS damage is one of the reasons why G Axe will triumph over Axe/Axe.

Scythe on WAR is B, but it's also slashing, so it'd be pointless. Furthermore, neither WAR or BST get a good scythe WS, nor do they get a good selection of weapons. NIN gets C Gkatana (also slashing) and none of the decent WS's. MNK Staff is B, also of the same weapontype as their main and has shit for WS's. With polearm both SAM and WAR get B, relatively shit for weaponselection, but at least a great WS, and hey, it's piercing.

Ding ding ding! You've figured it out! The reason people use lesser tier weapon skills is because of WSs and Camp situation! If it were simply because they were 2H weapons, then the above excuses would not be viable. We're making good progress here.

Change for Attack to Haste? What do you mean?

I meant *from* attack to haste. Before the update, a majority of players (At least on Diabolos) were still in the ATT++ Gear phase instead of using max haste gear. This coupled with the fact that relatively fewer people had access to Homam meant that 2H of the time were not properly geared for damage. However, since more 2H DDs are using Haste gear, there is a general increase in performance among 2H DDs.

I must be typing really badly if you read that. Higher skilled weapons should, of course do more than lower skilled ones.

292 Gaxe (max merits) > 285 Axes (max merits) > 276 Gaxe > 269 Axes
and not, as it is now
292 Gaxe > 276 Gaxe > 285 Axes > 269 Axes

It's that way even without changing out of WAR/NIN. If you put /SAM into the equation, maybe an unmeritted Gaxe WAR/SAM should outdo a meritted Axes WAR/NIN, but Hasso's not even necesarry to tip the scales.

Axe/Ridill will out damage Axe/Axe regardless of skill. However, neither benefit from the 2H update. The problem is, you're trying to rest the blame for this dichotomy between skill and damage on the 2H update (Essentially ~20 ACC?). However, there are examples such as the one mentioned above that manifest this dichotomy without involving the disparity between 2H and H2H/Dual Wield weapons. As even you admitted earlier, WS and Camp (Well that was implied by the piercing argument) are stronger factors that determine whether someone will use a 2H weapon over H2H/Dual Wield and do more damage. Compared to Hasso/Camp/General Gear Change/WS changes, 20 ACC means nothing.

Look: (forgive me for not remembering a chronological order)
Twohanders pre update were in a bad position, a solution was definitely needed.
Hasso and Seigan: great, a subjob for twohanders that gives an offensive and defensive advantage (see: dualwield+Utsu).
Grips: Smallish update, but was still welcome.
WS updates: Also helped at closing the gap, definitely.
Changed calculations: Twohanders now hit harder, 'scool, they should, swinging slower and all, they did this preupdate, but not by enough. Now they're more accurate too, and this is the part which I think tipped the balance.

That's your opinion then. I would argue that a valid reason to use /SAM sub (Hasso/Seigan), which gives Meditate/10% Haste/Counter/Third Eye/5 ACC/5 STR clearly outweighs the +20 ACC.

Giving onehanders the extra acc from DEX might not make up for the extra changes, but it'd help a shitton. If you'd at least have to go /SAM to bridge a 9-skill gap, it'd be a start. A broad update like that would probably have unforeseen consequences, and it'd be hard to balance with WAR/NIN and Ridill. Jobspecific updates for onehanded jobs would be much safer, but making axes less of a "lol retard" choice would be nice.

I agree on the specific updates part. However, I doubt SE will ever let WARs touch axes again since that would be counter-objective to the update. SE wanted to overthrow WAR/DRK dual wielding for good. They managed to do that at only the expense of NIN. That to me shows they did what was necessary without going overboard (Except for those sick weeks of permanent critical hits).

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-16 10:57

Originally Posted by Yugl

The only DD to leave that top tier group due to the 2H update is NIN.

This is something I don't understand; why is (was?) NIN seen as a really strong DD but THF not? Both have very high DoT, both have roughly the same calibre of gear available; NIN has Berserk and higher DA but THF has Triple Attack and Feint (2 minute at 5/5), Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, piercing bonus, and much stronger WSs.

**ronin sparthos** · 2009-05-16 11:14

Originally Posted by Raen Ryong

This is something I don't understand; why is (was?) NIN seen as a really strong DD but THF not? Both have very high DoT, both have roughly the same calibre of gear available; NIN has Berserk and higher DA but THF has Triple Attack and Feint (2 minute at 5/5), Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, piercing bonus, and much stronger WSs.

Because THF much like BLU is an easy job to fuck up.

NIN doubles as a tank in a party but THF is only a DD so if they arent up to par, thats a huge loss in damage output. A shitty NIN can still be a vokebitch at the least, even if they arent holding any hate.

THF is a victim of being a job that isnt just "engage and afk".

**Max™** · 2009-05-16 11:25

Originally Posted by Raen Ryong

Why is (was?) NIN seen as a really strong DD but THF not? NIN has Berserk and higher DA.

There ya go, more haste, more DA, more DW, + Berserk and the way fStr works meant Nin was top end with Mnk and DW War.

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-16 13:27

THF attacks nearly as quickly, 10% Triple Attack is like having 20% Double Attack which is more than NIN, SA and TA are very powerful if you gear for them properly.

Dancing Edge/Shark Bite/Evis/Mandalic Stab are always going to slaughter Blade: Jin and such in weaponskill damage.

I'm not denying most people screw up THF badly, but I don't understand how people can on one hand say THF is a laughable DD but also say that NIN can be very capable...

**Yugl** · 2009-05-16 14:05

Originally Posted by Raen Ryong

This is something I don't understand; why is (was?) NIN seen as a really strong DD but THF not? Both have very high DoT, both have roughly the same calibre of gear available; NIN has Berserk and higher DA but THF has Triple Attack and Feint (2 minute at 5/5), Sneak Attack and Trick Attack, piercing bonus, and much stronger WSs.

Well you have to think about this from a Pre-2H Update merit PT perspective. In a merit PT where hate bounces between melees, it's easy to miss SATA. Back then, there was a real backlash to "Outside ACC sources". It was expected that DDs had full ACC and used Meat or Dual Wielded and used Sushi. In either case, it was unacceptable to have outside ACC support such as Madrigal > March and so forth. In addition, I don't recall the Feint merits going as high as 5 before the update. They might have, but I don't remember it. Also, as mentioned earlier, there was a lot of NIN hype because it could tank and DD well. The whole piercing weapon perspective didn't kick in until after the patch when DRG started to reign supreme at the birds camp. Overall, the context and difficulty of playing THF well at a camp made it difficult for people to accept THFs as good DDs.

**Raen Ryong** · 2009-05-16 15:31

Ah alright, I can see things from that perspective. I just find it weird how people condemn THF yet praise NIN

**Baha** · 2009-05-16 17:19

Originally Posted by Yugl

If they had the ACC bonus WAR would still be using G Axe > Axe/Axe.

That would be perfectly fine. The gap would be SIGNIFICANTLY smaller without the acc gain. Axe doesn't need to be on top, it just needs to not be quite this bad.

2H DD were using Meat + ACC gear BEFORE the update. I don't understand why you think otherwise unless you yourself never played 2H DD (Or didn't play it well) before the update.

I know, I did as well. Except they were getting 80%ish acc, the same as a onehander would with meat. Now they get 20+ acc extra.

With good gear you could beat Scythe DRK with dual axes. You needed top of the line gear, but it was doable for excellent damage.

When I parsed myself I did better with scythe over dual wield. The lower skill forced me to use sushi and that gimped my damage more than the uberness of dual wield and Ridill made up. 1 Scythe merit, 2 Axe and 8 Sword. Maybe having 8/8 axe would have tilted the balance, but I doubt it.

Making the worst DDs seem even worse does NOT change their position. When making a PT, you don't say "Well THF isn't THAT much worse than SAM, so maybe I'll invite him over the SAM"; you invite the BEST DD for your PT (Not going to include gear since you don't know what they're wearing). There is no real comparative measure when choosing DDs for an event or PT. You basically look for the top tier group of DDs and select one as melee for your PT. The only DD to leave that top tier group due to the 2H update is NIN. MNKs are perfectly fine DDs, but the ability of other DDs to take advantage of piercing weapons makes other DDs more powerful. THF/BST/PUP/BLU (Outside BLU Burn) would never be considered for a PT before or after the update.

THF was hardly considered because it's so easy to fuck up, but a good THF could do really well. Better or at least comparable to DRG and DRK at camps like Mamool Ja, and doing great at Colibri. They still are great there, but the advantage was significantily lowered.

WS Difference. Go read the link I posted and you'll see that the math people are showing that G Axe makes up for its LACK of DMG against Dual Wield through WS damage. The sheer difference in WS damage is one of the reasons why G Axe will triumph over Axe/Axe.

Then there's no reason not to give dualwield the acc right? The gap will be made up by the WS, and the need to sub SAM. Gaxe is still better, but the gap would be significantly lower. I'm fine with that, are you?

Ding ding ding! You've figured it out! The reason people use lesser tier weapon skills is because of WSs and Camp situation! If it were simply because they were 2H weapons, then the above excuses would not be viable. We're making good progress here.

I really do not appreciate to be made out to be a retard. How many times do I have to say situationally? The free acc you get is one of the biggest reasons you can overcome the skillgap and make it a lesser-skilled weapon work with these awesome results.

I meant *from* attack to haste. Before the update, a majority of players (At least on Diabolos) were still in the ATT++ Gear phase instead of using max haste gear. This coupled with the fact that relatively fewer people had access to Homam meant that 2H of the time were not properly geared for damage. However, since more 2H DDs are using Haste gear, there is a general increase in performance among 2H DDs.

Well I'm sorry for the pickup pt's you had to suffer. I can't really say I've experienced that shift on Phoenix. Before the update everyone was maxing haste, and after it was all the same. There were people then who parrotted "Turban by itself is not worth it" and happily wore their Wyvern helm to TP in, but those retards are still around nowadays.

Axe/Ridill will out damage Axe/Axe regardless of skill. However, neither benefit from the 2H update. The problem is, you're trying to rest the blame for this dichotomy between skill and damage on the 2H update (Essentially ~20 ACC?). However, there are examples such as the one mentioned above that manifest this dichotomy without involving the disparity between 2H and H2H/Dual Wield weapons. As even you admitted earlier, WS and Camp (Well that was implied by the piercing argument) are stronger factors that determine whether someone will use a 2H weapon over H2H/Dual Wield and do more damage. Compared to Hasso/Camp/General Gear Change/WS changes, 20 ACC means nothing.

Like I said, multihit weapons in general, and Ridill especially are just broken. It is one single example of a onehanded weapon seriously diminishing the value of a skill level. The twohanded DEX calculation dimishes the value of skill level across the board. As heavily as Ridill? Maybe not, but it's still significant.

It is not the only reason for twohanders being on top, but it is one of the biggest ones. That's why I keep using Gaxe WAR/NIN as my example. With just the improved WS's and the extra acc it's enough to outdo a (higher skilled, maxmeritted) dual axes WAR/NIN. It'd be fine with me if the improved WS's closed the gap, and that switching subjobs to make use of Hasso would make the unmeritted Gaxe pull ahead of the meritted axes. Then merits would make it even better. What I'm trying to say is that it's significant enough to not make SAM subjob (which you say was a significant update, and it's undeniably so) even necessary to put it on top.

That's your opinion then. I would argue that a valid reason to use /SAM sub (Hasso/Seigan), which gives Meditate/10% Haste/Counter/Third Eye/5 ACC/5 STR clearly outweighs the +20 ACC.

It's probably close. You get the extra acc without doing anything or giving up anything though, that's my point. If you sub /SAM you do give up the safety of Utsusemi as a twohander. Postupdate I much preferred to use DRK/SAM, it does better damage, but you give up safety (arguably, multihit TP moves vs singletarget magic etc) but at least ease of use (Utsu is more fire and forget and much more forgiving).

I agree on the specific updates part. However, I doubt SE will ever let WARs touch axes again since that would be counter-objective to the update. SE wanted to overthrow WAR/DRK dual wielding for good. They managed to do that at only the expense of NIN. That to me shows they did what was necessary without going overboard (Except for those sick weeks of permanent critical hits).

I would never ever want to return to the situation previous to the update. Bravura WAR's being better off dualwielding was stupid. DRK's lusting after Ridill was retarded. etcetc.
But really, if you say NIN got it bad, then THF etc got it just as bad. NIN had nothing done to it, it was just left behind. Like every other dual wielder.

**Baha** · 2009-05-16 17:28

Originally Posted by Yugl

Well you have to think about this from a Pre-2H Update merit PT perspective. In a merit PT where hate bounces between melees, it's easy to miss SATA. Back then, there was a real backlash to "Outside ACC sources". It was expected that DDs had full ACC and used Meat or Dual Wielded and used Sushi. In either case, it was unacceptable to have outside ACC support such as Madrigal > March and so forth. In addition, I don't recall the Feint merits going as high as 5 before the update. They might have, but I don't remember it. Also, as mentioned earlier, there was a lot of NIN hype because it could tank and DD well. The whole piercing weapon perspective didn't kick in until after the patch when DRG started to reign supreme at the birds camp. Overall, the context and difficulty of playing THF well at a camp made it difficult for people to accept THFs as good DDs.

Sorry for the double-ish post, but I didn't want to drag this in to the quote train.
Feint merits didn't go up that high, but feint was just a nice bonus to have, especially when you could feint the lurker pretty much every time it repopped, that was enough.

Piercing weapon hype was already going on since people first ran into the meripo colibri's. WAR's going Blau/Ridill, NIN mainhanding Blau etc, it wasn't *the* thing to do, but it was being tried out. DRG's were pretty happy to get such a great camp, but THF reigned supreme at bird camp prepatch, no question.

NIN/WAR was better than THF/NIN usually, but WS's helped and Homam gave THF some much-needed extra acc. At Bird camp though, NIN came in second, and they wouldn't be tanking for any amount of time unless TAWS'd.

Usually you'd just SA and TA seperately, and not stack WS's though.

**Yugl** · 2009-05-16 19:06

Originally Posted by Baha

That would be perfectly fine. The gap would be SIGNIFICANTLY smaller without the acc gain. Axe doesn't need to be on top, it just needs to not be quite this bad.

What do you mean "Not quite this bad"? There are arguments about the effectiveness of Axe/Ridill v G Axe in the advanced thread at this moment. G Axe may reign supreme, but Axe/??? is no slouch either. You're overemphasizing the difference greatly.

I think I understand what your true goal is now. You just want an FFXI where you can Axe/Axe as you please without criticism, and to do so, you're willing to make outlandish claims and criticize what was a successful update. You're not making any points about MNK. You're not making any points about how the 2H update went overboard. You're willing to suggest and take any improvements that come for dual wielders, and because of that, you miss out on the points that truly make Dual Wielders fall behind.

I know, I did as well. Except they were getting 80%ish acc, the same as a onehander would with meat. Now they get 20+ acc extra.

Oh and that 20 ACC to you, suddenly destroyed the boundary between Dual Wield and 2H? It went too far? Like I said earlier, you detestation for 2H is causing you to make absurd remarks. More importantly, I don't see how it went too far. You like arguing without my points, yet you don't back up your claim. Tell me how 20 ACC (Which is generous considering you need to be Mithra with some DEX gear to reach that amount) towards 2H wielders went overboard (Especially when they have more delay).

THF was hardly considered because it's so easy to fuck up, but a good THF could do really well. Better or at least comparable to DRG and DRK at camps like Mamool Ja, and doing great at Colibri. They still are great there, but the advantage was significantily lowered.

Comparable to a DRG? You must have been with the crowd. I don't know about DRK, but I know DRG could beat THF before the update. I have no doubt about that. They had access to a good EVAs down weapon (That proced a lot) and Angon. That improves the PT's DMG, which increased XP. Even though it was the loldrg era, DRG were in fact doing as well and even slightly better than THFs.

Then there's no reason not to give dualwield the acc right? The gap will be made up by the WS, and the need to sub SAM. Gaxe is still better, but the gap would be significantly lower. I'm fine with that, are you?

I don't see how that proves your point about the 2H update going too far. If anything, you're contradicting yourself since you said Hasso = Dual Wield. If that's the case, then what makes up for the base Delay difference? I personally don't agree with that statement, but it's one that you made and quite frankly, you're not building an argument with it. If you honestly think that giving 1H the DEX=>ACC adjustment will suddenly diminish the discrepancy between 2H and 1H, you're sadly mistaken. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, that 20 ACC is a generous estimate. 80 DEX is needed to hit that 20 ACC difference. On Mithra DRK(Best 2H Example), it's four DEX (Easy with Rajas) to 80 DEX. On Elvaan DRK it's 65. On Elvaan DRG its 62. That 20 ACC is not a straight up bonus. However, to answer your question, if they negate the effects of off-hand weapons, I would not have a problem with 1H wielders receiving 20 ACC. The reason I would negate the effects of the off-hand weapon is because grips cannot off-set the impact that a 2-3 hit weapon or +30 ATT weapon provides.

I really do not appreciate to be made out to be a retard. How many times do I have to say situationally? The free acc you get is one of the biggest reasons you can overcome the skillgap and make it a lesser-skilled weapon work with these awesome results.

As I pointed out in my response, the free ACC is not the main reason players can use 2H weapons. It's because of other factors such as Hasso/WS/Camp types. If it were simply because of the ACC, which you yourself claimed went "overboard", then there would be more drastic changes at work than simply WARs using G Axe and DRK using Scythe.

Like I said, multihit weapons in general, and Ridill especially are just broken. It is one single example of a onehanded weapon seriously diminishing the value of a skill level. The twohanded DEX calculation dimishes the value of skill level across the board. As heavily as Ridill? Maybe not, but it's still significant.

So take out all the adjustments. No Hasso/Grips/New WS/Bird Camps/WS Fixes. You honestly think that 20 ACC alone allows a G Axe WAR to beat a Ridill WAR? You're saying that if a G Axe had 20 ACC before the update, people would have used G Axe over Axe/Ridill in merits?

It is not the only reason for twohanders being on top, but it is one of the biggest ones. That's why I keep using Gaxe WAR/NIN as my example. With just the improved WS's and the extra acc it's enough to outdo a (higher skilled, maxmeritted) dual axes WAR/NIN. It'd be fine with me if the improved WS's closed the gap, and that switching subjobs to make use of Hasso would make the unmeritted Gaxe pull ahead of the meritted axes. Then merits would make it even better. What I'm trying to say is that it's significant enough to not make SAM subjob (which you say was a significant update, and it's undeniably so) even necessary to put it on top.

See the above question. I know for sure that if the only updates 2H had coming for them was the DEX=>ACC change, that there would not have been any shift in weapon choice. You may argue otherwise, but I think almost all means of convincing you have been exhausted. You're unwilling to see the other side and because of that, you ignore the truth.

It's probably close. You get the extra acc without doing anything or giving up anything though, that's my point. If you sub /SAM you do give up the safety of Utsusemi as a twohander. Postupdate I much preferred to use DRK/SAM, it does better damage, but you give up safety (arguably, multihit TP moves vs singletarget magic etc) but at least ease of use (Utsu is more fire and forget and much more forgiving).

So what I'm hearing is that you're arguing /NIN + DEX update > /SAM because of safety and easiness? I'm going to ignore the latter since melees should learn to play actively. The former warrants discussion, but simply put, considering our zerg-zerg playstyle (Mentioned in advanced JP/NA Discussion threat), WAR/SAM would still be the predominant DD.

I would never ever want to return to the situation previous to the update. Bravura WAR's being better off dualwielding was stupid. DRK's lusting after Ridill was retarded. etcetc.

Wow. Huge contradiction you just made there. If you're saying that Bravura WAR (Which has +20 ACC) is better off Dual Wielding, then wouldn't that mean...! Yes it would! The +20 ACC from the 2H update isn't responsible for this change from Dual Wield=>2H! If it were as you claimed, then that 20 ACC should be enough to justify Bravura > Dual Wield.

But really, if you say NIN got it bad, then THF etc got it just as bad. NIN had nothing done to it, it was just left behind. Like every other dual wielder.

NIN was the ONLY one shafted in the update. THF didn't "get it bad" they had it bad. Other dual wielders? BST? BLU? You do realize that problems existed long before the update with these classes. If you're complaining about those three classes having it bad, then you should look to blame class-specific problems instead of the 2H update.

**Baha** · 2009-05-16 21:21

Originally Posted by Yugl

What do you mean "Not quite this bad"? There are arguments about the effectiveness of Axe/Ridill v G Axe in the advanced thread at this moment. G Axe may reign supreme, but Axe/??? is no slouch either. You're overemphasizing the difference greatly.

I think I understand what your true goal is now. You just want an FFXI where you can Axe/Axe as you please without criticism, and to do so, you're willing to make outlandish claims and criticize what was a successful update. You're not making any points about MNK. You're not making any points about how the 2H update went overboard. You're willing to suggest and take any improvements that come for dual wielders, and because of that, you miss out on the points that truly make Dual Wielders fall behind.

Seriously: Ridill WAR is broken, it's grasping for straws to use that as a reason to say that onehanders are in okay shape. I don't blame you for using it, because there's a good chance that any boos to onehanders will make Ridill too powerful again.

Oh and that 20 ACC to you, suddenly destroyed the boundary between Dual Wield and 2H? It went too far? Like I said earlier, you detestation for 2H is causing you to make absurd remarks. More importantly, I don't see how it went too far. You like arguing without my points, yet you don't back up your claim. Tell me how 20 ACC (Which is generous considering you need to be Mithra with some DEX gear to reach that amount) towards 2H wielders went overboard (Especially when they have more delay).

Honestly, I have no detestation for twohanders. They were in a shitty place, and are now in a much better one, deservedly so.

Spoiler: show

36 acc difference, deduct 7 (276-269 skill difference) and it's still a 29 difference in accuracy.

Comparable to a DRG? You must have been with the crowd. I don't know about DRK, but I know DRG could beat THF before the update. I have no doubt about that. They had access to a good EVAs down weapon (That proced a lot) and Angon. That improves the PT's DMG, which increased XP. Even though it was the loldrg era, DRG were in fact doing as well and even slightly better than THFs.

Blau/Sirocco was a great weaponcombo too, and Angon and Feint even eachother out more or less. You say DRG's were doing slightly better, I say THF was doing better, at a camp that should be ideal for both DD jobs. Can we agree to call this comparable?

I don't see how that proves your point about the 2H update going too far. If anything, you're contradicting yourself since you said Hasso = Dual Wield. If that's the case, then what makes up for the base Delay difference?

Hasso was implemented in an earlier patch, and made twohanders gain back a lot of lost ground, but did not restore them to dominance by itself. Hasso gave dualwielders a subjob that gave them both a bigger punch and a safety net, , which they previously lacked.
Twohanders are slower, but hit harder. They weren't doing this (not by enough) preupdate, a Gaxe wouldn't hit twice as hard as an individual axe, even though it should've done so. The STR to attack adjustment was a logical solution, and did its job I think.

The same update also gave grips (as a counterweight to offhand weapons stat choice, whether or not the small selection of grips were enough, no comment from me) and also improved WS's greatly (twohanders always had a soft spot for big WS's, and this also makes sense).

Just this would, I believe, have resulted in Gaxe WAR/SAM and twohanders in general to be on top (where they ought to be). The extra accuracy from DEX just widens the gap even more, and I don't think it's strictly necesarry.

I personally don't agree with that statement, but it's one that you made and quite frankly, you're not building an argument with it. If you honestly think that giving 1H the DEX=>ACC adjustment will suddenly diminish the discrepancy between 2H and 1H, you're sadly mistaken.

It will diminish it, not make it dissappear, and that'd be fine.

However, to answer your question, if they negate the effects of off-hand weapons, I would not have a problem with 1H wielders receiving 20 ACC. The reason I would negate the effects of the off-hand weapon is because grips cannot off-set the impact that a 2-3 hit weapon or +30 ATT weapon provides.

Grips should've been the thing to fix the statbonus of an offhand weapon, it seems most logical. Juggernaut isn't really gamebreaking, and neither would a grip with stats on jugg's level. I'm all for new grips, hell, add in some rarer ones that are much stronger than the current ones. (Maybe add some extra DD shields too please! Rare or otherwise)
Ridill is gamebreaking, so using it as a measuring stick to compare onehand/twohander just seems like a bad idea. SE created a big balancing problem for themselves when they made it, if they have to nerf it to make it fairer, ok.

As I pointed out in my response, the free ACC is not the main reason players can use 2H weapons. It's because of other factors such as Hasso/WS/Camp types. If it were simply because of the ACC, which you yourself claimed went "overboard", then there would be more drastic changes at work than simply WARs using G Axe and DRK using Scythe.

The camp types are clearly the main cause, if my statements made you think I thought otherwise, my bad. WS improvements help (they've had more than an impact than I thought at first) undoubtedly. Let me tone down my rhetoric a couple notches. The extra accuracy is what pushes polearm SAM and WAR the extra mile from viable to great. If you use a significantly lower skilled weapon, accuracy's your main concern.

So take out all the adjustments. No Hasso/Grips/New WS/Bird Camps/WS Fixes. You honestly think that 20 ACC alone allows a G Axe WAR to beat a Ridill WAR? You're saying that if a G Axe had 20 ACC before the update, people would have used G Axe over Axe/Ridill in merits?

See the above question. I know for sure that if the only updates 2H had coming for them was the DEX=>ACC change, that there would not have been any shift in weapon choice. You may argue otherwise, but I think almost all means of convincing you have been exhausted. You're unwilling to see the other side and because of that, you ignore the truth.

(I'm pretty sure bird camp was added in an update a few months before changed 2h calculations, but I'm really not sure)
No, the extra acc in itself wouldn't have been enough. That's why I think it could make the gap between onehanders and twohanders a bit smaller, without going back to dualwield > all.

So what I'm hearing is that you're arguing /NIN + DEX update > /SAM because of safety and easiness? I'm going to ignore the latter since melees should learn to play actively. The former warrants discussion, but simply put, considering our zerg-zerg playstyle (Mentioned in advanced JP/NA Discussion threat), WAR/SAM would still be the predominant DD.

WAR/SAM Gaxe should be the best DD. WAR/NIN Gaxe trades in damage for extra survival etc. WAR/NIN axes would have the safety and it would be nice if the damage potential (given equal skill) would be about the same. If Gaxe edges *slightly* ahead with equal skill (due to RR being improved), that's still fine. I'm all for the zerg-zerg merit mentality myself, JP's can sit on convert all they want, I'll dualbox a healer if I want to be safe.

Wow. Huge contradiction you just made there. If you're saying that Bravura WAR (Which has +20 ACC) used to be better off Dual Wielding, then wouldn't that mean...! Yes it would! The +20 ACC from the 2H update isn't responsible for this change from Dual Wield=>2H! If it were as you claimed, then that 20 ACC should be enough to justify Bravura > Dual Wield.

The twohanded update was necesarry, and Hasso/Seigan, grips, better WS's, changed STR>att and the DEX>acc changes all played their role in it. I know this.

I think that even without any DEX/acc change, the targets you would've liked to see (which I'm pretty sure I'd agree on) would've been met. We won't be sure though, because other than Hasso/Seigan, they hit us all at the same time. Taking it away now would be cruel, so giving onehanders just the DEX>acc, and then balancing further with some extra grips and stuff seems better to me.

NIN was the ONLY one shafted in the update. THF didn't "get it bad" they had it bad.

They already had it bad, so all twohanders collectively jumping further/over them does still hurt them. No onehanded jobs got nerfed, but they're all in a much worse position than they were before.

**Yugl** · 2009-05-16 23:31

Alright, I get what you're trying to say now. The DEX=> ACC adjustment itself didn't make the update broken, the factors in play along with that make it overpowered. I can reason with that assertion, but I find that it was necessary to deter WAR/DRK/NIN Dual Wielders from power. As you mentioned, /NIN is a safety net, and because of this, if G Axe only did slightly better than Axe, then people would still Dual Wield. You say it went overboard because it stopped dual wielding. I say it was objectively on the spot since that was the point.

Honestly, I have no detestation for twohanders. They were in a shitty place, and are now in a much better one, deservedly so.

Spoiler: show

36 acc difference, deduct 7 (276-269 skill difference) and it's still a 29 difference in accuracy.

Why is it showing Hume with a BASE of 101 DEX and 89 STR? That's skewed results from the beginning.

I checked with someone and as a hume, their base DEX is 69+32 that is 25 ACC difference in the best case scenario. Notice this is the best case scenario you're trying to throw out where Haidate breaks the rules with a +15 DEX addition. No other 2H DD aside from SAM receives this benefit (DRK and DRG).

Blau/Sirocco was a great weaponcombo too, and Angon and Feint even eachother out more or less. You say DRG's were doing slightly better, I say THF was doing better, at a camp that should be ideal for both DD jobs. Can we agree to call this comparable?

Absolutely not. You're trying to say THF was comparable to DRG and DRK before the update, which is untrue. I see what you're trying to argue. You want to say that THFs were in the same situation as DRG and DRK until the 2H update. That is a lie. They were not in the same bracket as DRG or DRK. Both classes outperformed THF long before the 2H update. Also, what with comparing Angon to Feint? I don't know about you, but any respectable DD would never claim them to be equal. Angon/Mezraq (Combo at the time) added much more for the PT than Feint ever could.

They already had it bad, so all twohanders collectively jumping further/over them does still hurt them. No onehanded jobs got nerfed, but they're all in a much worse position than they were before.

If we put each class on a scale before and after the update, you'll find that they're pretty much in the same situation. NIN falls behind other DDs (Which I think is the objective considering their tanking capabilities), THF/BST/BLU are still worse than the DDs they were before, and MNK is slightly worse than some DDs (Not really due to the difference in ACC, especially with the addition of Pizza). The most damaging update to MNKs is the WS update since that's where MNKs were and continue to lack. THF/BST/BLU are genuinely screwed no matter what updates to 2H are made, they need single adjustments to compensate for their lacking. Oh and PUP as well. Even if they're in a "worse" situation, does that matter? Not really. To say that 2H didn't need the ACC because they were already better than these four classes is ignorant.

Will they need adjustments later on? Yes, but that doesn't mean SE shouldn't have fixed a glaring problem while they can. They can fix the other classes in separate updates, but when the opportunity to fix 2H DDs presents itself, it would be foolish to ignore such a chance. Maybe you're not arguing against this, but quite frankly I don't see how else mentioning becoming "worse than worst" augments your argument against the DEX=>ACC bonus in the update.

**Thorny** · 2009-05-16 23:35

Originally Posted by Starr

Are you telling me that Barbut is 5% Snapshot?

's what i've been told, if anyone's actually done the frame test feel free to correct me

**Baha** · 2009-05-17 01:09

Originally Posted by Yugl

Alright, I get what you're trying to say now. The DEX=> ACC adjustment itself didn't make the update broken, the factors in play along with that make it overpowered. I can reason with that assertion, but I find that it was necessary to deter WAR/DRK/NIN Dual Wielders from power. As you mentioned, /NIN is a safety net, and because of this, if G Axe only did slightly better than Axe, then people would still Dual Wield. You say it went overboard because it stopped dual wielding. I say it was objectively on the spot since that was the point.

Yeah that was the point. I just think that making Gaxe WS's even better, or improving grips or /SAM would've been a better way to go around it. Come to think of it, I think the update that added Hasso gave /SAM access to lolZanshin as well.

Why is it showing Hume with a BASE of 101 DEX and 89 STR? That's skewed results from the beginning.

I checked with someone and as a hume, their base DEX is 69+32 that is 25 ACC difference in the best case scenario. Notice this is the best case scenario you're trying to throw out where Haidate breaks the rules with a +15 DEX addition. No other 2H DD aside from SAM receives this benefit (DRK and DRG).

It's not listed the same as ingame, the number before the brackets is the total, brackets is the bonus from gear. I suppose you could call Haidate breaking the rules one of the unforeseen consequences. ;p

To say that 2H didn't need the ACC because they were already better than these four classes is ignorant.

Didn't mean to say that, that'd be like saying that no job would deserve an update until it's the worst one.

Will they need adjustments later on? Yes, but that doesn't mean SE shouldn't have fixed a glaring problem while they can. They can fix the other classes in separate updates, but when the opportunity to fix 2H DDs presents itself, it would be foolish to ignore such a chance. Maybe you're not arguing against this, but quite frankly I don't see how else mentioning becoming "worse than worst" augments your argument against the DEX=>ACC bonus in the update.

Yeah, they should've fixed the glaring problem of course. First one big upgrade (Hasso), that didn't do it, so another big update that changes/updates 4 things at the same time. We can't really say anything conclusive about the effect of the extra accuracy by itself, we can only speculate. Hasso by itself was not enough to break DW dominance, that we can say. Then we got DEX>acc, STR>attack, grips and improved WS's all at once. I *think* that the last three changes would've been enough, but I can't say for sure because we got all four together.

Nothing wrong with overshooting your goal, and then do some little rebalancing afterwards (it's pretty standard in online gaming), it's just that they haven't really rebalanced since. Par for the course for SE of course though, after all, it did take years before they gave twohanders that necessary update.

Spoiler: show

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