Current Known Issue (May 12) -.-

[Meian]

Thought there was data that it was better than Destroyers?

[Acturus]

Was there any proof that these were better than Destroyers? Like any parses or anything?

No, none publically released.

[Gtype954]

Did this Issue mean that the augment was not working properly in a good way (buff), or that they made it too powerful which in a bad way (nerf).

I wanted to start spamming this but I kept getting the delay augment lower then -25% and with a lack of other augments on it.
I still want to spam this for the imperial ingots with 6 ppl. If I pay all 6 of them not including paying myself, the ingots would still be way cheaper then buying them from the AH in a sense.
900k divided by 6 ppl. Divided by 5 not including myself and I just brought the ingot off of them for 750k.
I wanted these h2h though and completely forgot about mythic and almost relic once I seen these. Someone use their h2h and tell us if it can still outparse destroyers. (If it even could before the update).

I know it can't beat relic of course, but I would still use faiths and these because attacking fast is fun as hell even if the damage isn't the highest.

[Meian]

Known values:

Weapon: +122 delay

Pup @75 base delay: 360
Mnk @75 base delay: 300

-17% delay weapon on mnk: 5.0 TP per hit
-19% delay weapon on mnk: 4.9 TP per hit
-24% delay weapon on mnk: 4.8 TP per hit

-25% delay weapon on pup: 5.3 TP per hit


Delay for:
4.8 TP per hit: 156-167 per punch, 312-335 combined
4.9 TP per hit: 168-179 per punch, 336-359 combined
5.0 TP per hit: 180-184 per punch, 360-369 combined
5.1 TP per hit: 185-188 per punch, 370-377 combined
5.2 TP per hit: 189-192 per punch, 378-385 combined
5.3 TP per hit: 193-196 per punch, 386-393 combined



What the results must be:

482 -25% >> 386-393
422 -24% >> 312-335
422 -19% >> 336-359
422 -17% >> 360-369


Simple percentile reductions:

482 -25% = 362 [not valid]
422 -24% = 321 [valid]
422 -19% = 342 [valid]
422 -17% = 350 [not valid]


Inverse scaling:

482 / 1.25 = 386 [valid]
422 / 1.24 = 340 [not valid]
422 / 1.19 = 355 [valid]
422 / 1.17 = 361 [valid]


The 19% value ends up being valid using either method. The remaining values are valid in only one of the two configs.


Quantity range removed:

482 > 386-393 == 89-96
422 > 312-335 == 87-110
422 > 336-359 == 63-86
422 > 360-369 == 53-62

Range removed divided by delay value:

89-96 / .25 = 356-384
87-110 / .24 = 363-459
63-86 / .19 = 332-453
53-62 / .17 = 312-365


The only range of values that fit all 4 of the above are 363-365. It's also interesting the that the pup value range is so close to the mnks' value ranges. From that, I'm going to propose a hypothesis.


Hypothesis:

The -delay value has a cap of the base delay of the weapon that it can apply to. This cap is at 180 per weapon, or 360 for combined delay on H2H (or possibly just 360 total delay, period). So:

Mnk:
Base + weapon = 422, over 360 cap. Delay reduction is calculated on 360 and subtracted from 422.

17%:
360 * .17 = 61.2
422 - 61.2 = 360.8 => 360
TP per hit: 5.0
[matches]

19%:
360 * .19 = 68.4
422 - 68.4 = 353.6 => 353
TP per hit: 4.9
[matches]

24%:
360 * .24 = 86.4
422 - 86.4 = 335.6 => 335
TP per hit: 4.8
[matches]

25% (pup):
360 * .25 = 90
482 - 90 = 392
TP per hit: 5.3
[matches]



Matches all 4 currently known cases.

Possible secondary validation:

If any of those with the weapon can delevel to 74 to retest, the predicted TP per hit would be:

-17% (mnk): 5.2
-19% (mnk): 5.1
-24% (mnk): 4.9
-25% (mnk): 4.9
-17% (pup): 5.9
-19% (pup): 5.8
-24% (pup): 5.6
-25% (pup): 5.6




If this is the way that this augment is calculated, then the full -25% delay version would have a final delay of 332 on mnk, and may possibly be compared/verified with FRAPSing vs Lynx Baghnakhs.

Adjusting the numbers I used on page 2, that would put these at 5.4% above Destroyers, fully on par with Faiths. Any other augments (eg: +2 acc, as I've seen reported) would push them a bit above Faiths.

from here Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI


Not like it matters anymore anyway...

[ringthree]

from here Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI[/url]


Not like it matters anymore anyway...

That was handled in the other thread. The math is pretty bad and makes a lot of assumptions, as they did with Faith's too.

I still have not seem evidence, theoretical or parsed that Faith or these Manoples are better than Destroyers.

[ringthree]

Did this Issue mean that the augment was not working properly in a good way (buff), or that they made it too powerful which in a bad way (nerf).

I wanted to start spamming this but I kept getting the delay augment lower then -25% and with a lack of other augments on it.
I still want to spam this for the imperial ingots with 6 ppl. If I pay all 6 of them not including paying myself, the ingots would still be way cheaper then buying them from the AH in a sense.
900k divided by 6 ppl. Divided by 5 not including myself and I just brought the ingot off of them for 750k.
I wanted these h2h though and completely forgot about mythic and almost relic once I seen these. Someone use their h2h and tell us if it can still outparse destroyers. (If it even could before the update).

I know it can't beat relic of course, but I would still use faiths and these because attacking fast is fun as hell even if the damage isn't the highest.

Edit: Oops. Posted before reading fully.

[ringthree]

Awesome. Our dev team once more shows it's true intelligence (or lack thereof @-@)

How so?

[Cream Soda]

That was handled in the other thread. The math is pretty bad and makes a lot of assumptions, as they did with Faith's too.

I did what i call using practical parse data. I went to one of my parses, grabbed my dmg/hit average and dmg/crit avearge. Then i took the delay of both (using the 317 figure) and was like in 100 attack rounds of destroyers I'd get X number of attack rounds with Manoples, found X and plugged in # of hits for both (using same acc so just -25% delay before the other stats) and then applied crit rates and Manoples came out on top assuming they were both dmg 18 (which manoples are dmg 20 and can also get 3 acc).

[Ultimagi]

Ringthree is a Ridill poster now.

[ringthree]

Ringthree is a Ridill poster now.

I know. LOL I am the worst about that. It even bugs me too. I post before reading the whole thread because it better follows my train of thought. I am about to do it again.

[Drace]

While I would love to see some buffs added for Hand to Hand and Single Hand wpn melee in general, I don't think the fix all should be some absurdly broken weapon from an ANNM (and imo, yes 25% off your total delay is broken, not to mention the counter and acc possible buffs.) You are basically getting a wpn very close to being on par with fully upgraded relic/ PW drop that takes a good 15 minutes and some luck to obtain.

As Francisco mentioned, this felt too much like slumming it to me. I even told my ANNM group I wasn't too worried about getting these because they seemed too good to be true (and SE doesn't exactly have a track record of having things that are too good to be true stick around for very long >_>)

[Shenrien]

Accuracy +2 Counter +4 Delay +25% .

Fixed to accommodate the new changes to come to the weapon, expect to see this.

[TummieGaruda]

I had thought it was strange that the -delay took the delay from 360 or 180 and then took that amount and subtracted it from the total delay of the weapon (Or weapon + base delay on h2h). Now it will probably reflect what it should have, which was -delay from the weapon itself meaning those -25% on those H2H weapons will be around 91 Delay.

[Zilong]

blah, guess I'd have to get that goddamn destroyers after all...

[Almalexia]

Balrahn : totally punk'd you, bro. rofl

[BRP]

SE should just break everything in this game and make all the stats reach infinity, then the playerbase will be happy.

[Maguile]

Why even put the chance of -25% delay on a h2h weapon in the game, if theyre just gonna take it out?

Christ they dont think before they do half the shit they do....fuckin bizzare

[Francisco]

SE should just break everything in this game and make all the stats reach infinity, then the playerbase will be happy.

Not if it benefits SAM!

[ringthree]

blah, guess I'd have to get that goddamn destroyers after all...

Destroyers are very easy to get. Hell, all the Crit hit weapons are easy to get.

[ringthree]

SE should just break everything in this game and make all the stats reach infinity, then the playerbase will be happy.

No, they would complain that SE has limited reality to infinity and will demand interdimensional gear.