All Worlds Emergency Maintenance (May 13)

[Gredival]

Wait wait wait... so you're basing the entire foundation of 'Ridill WAR is better for Xp/hr than Perdu WAR' on the fact that you 'regularly destroy 2H's on Thief'?

HA HAA HA HAHAHAHAAAAA HA HA HAA!

Yeah, you just did more to damage your side of the 'argument' than I ever could. Thanks.

Good job, once again, on your impeccable selective reading skills.

I pointed out the fallacy of relying on anecdotal evidence and a few parses.

I explicitly point out this is why we should look at the math here: Now do I take this anecdotal evidence to say GA sucks and is vastly inferior to Ridill in every way? No of course not. The whole point of looking at math with ideal builds was to isolate parsing variables.

And I draw my conclusion about the math here: And any way you slice it, when you look at the *math* it is close. Certainly not a blowout. Ridill is certainly not "subpar". And certainly not justificatory for all the parading "Ridill sucks anyone who uses one is gimpzor!!!" talk.

[Raineer]

Seriously, the argument is now "you have to S+TE full time or eat damage"?

Ride Hasso, get TP
Make a quick judgement as you're WSing.

Will the monster die before WSing me?
1: Yes, and Retaliation is up, yay free damage/Tp.
2: Yes, but Retaliation isn't up.
3: No

1: Ride the wave of death and destruction, baby.
2: /ja "Third Eye" <me>, /wait 1, /ja "Retaliation" <me>
3: /ja "Seigan" <me>, /wait 1, /ja "Third Eye" <me>

Seriously, it isn't that fucking hard people. You want hard? Help me work out a way to relate the topological properties of 1 dimensional thread interactions to the point particle mass dilemma in GR. That shit is hard.

I love healing in meripo for this kind of player. You are there to wreck shit, I am there to heal you.

If you're going to wreck shit.... wreck shit

[Devolver]

If you're going to wreck shit.... wreck shit

Agreed. A healer complaining about healing is like a DD complaining about having to WS. Just doesn't make sense.

[evilpaul]

I'd love to know how much greater EXP/hr you get being a Cure IV sponge as opposed to playing somewhat defensively?

[Khamsin]

If GAxe really is the best now, and ridill sucks, then what SE really needs to do is add a new G.axe to the game, say:

DMG:95
Delay:474
Occasionally Attacks 2-3 Times

And stick it on Fafnir. Problem solved. GAxe gets to be the definitive best, and king campers are happy, too.

[Cadsuane]

Because the speed you gain TP compared to your delay is not completely linear.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/ff.../3d/Tpgain.jpg

For the optimal haste situation for WAR's we're talking 23% haste in gear, 20% in BRD, and 15% in spell? 58% reduction then.

.42 x 409 = 171.78 (Ridill)
.42 x 504 = 211.68 (Gaxe)

As you can see, haste gets the Ridill just past the very sharp spike drop, putting it better off, relatively, to where it was before. Gaxe turns out to be roughly where it was before.

For only one march we're talking 49% reduction

.51 x 409 = 208.59
.51 x 504 = 257.04

Here again Ridill turns out better as 257 places at a decreasing part of the slope.

I believe it's the same sort of effect in Dual Wield (DW naturally favors weapons with less combined delay) which makes Koggelmander/Perdu so attractive to BLUs -- they can get into a "sweet spot" for delay that optimizes how reduction trades off with TP.

Lol. The graph you just showed indicates TP/delay values before haste, ie. which delay ranges are the most efficient for TP gain. It goes on to say that anything between 480 and 530 is about as good as 180, which you will only get with daggers/katanas and fast DW'd swords. Haste doesn't change your delay or your TP per swing. DW does! If you had enough DW to put your delay around 180, you'd sort of have a case. Disregarding the fact that GAXE delay is right at that hump in the middle that's among the most efficient in the whole range, of course.

I outright stated the situations weren't equivocal. The point of the example was to demonstrate that parties aren't built around "optimal damage" such as MNK/WAR but rather around sustainable damage like MNK/NIN.

They aren't equivocal, so what's your basis in painting seigan tanks as MP sinks again? Oh right, there was none.

[TybudX]

Really, Gredival, you keep trying to back this conception that relies on /nin to work, and even then, as you admit yourself, it's almost a wash. If WAR/NIN with Perdu and WAR/NIN with Ridill are almost completely identical, what do you think happens when the big boys come out and use real DD jobs?

Your whole idea that the Ridill build gets TP faster goes to shit in the face of a 6 hit build, Retaliation, Counter Attacks, and 3rd Eye. Then you get to worry about 2 handers being buffed with 2x Minuet instead of Madrigal/Minuet. Then you get to worry about Raging Rush having higher average damage than Rampage.

And you still completely ignore the fact that /sam does not make you more of a 'sponge' unless the other DDs you are meriting with are considerably worse than you.
edit - and if that's the case, /nin isn't going to make you less of a sponge

I'm not even going to comment on the claim that you 'walk all over' 2 handed DDs on your THF. No, fuck it, I am. They were either afk, dead, or just really, really bad players. Really fucking bad. You better have a Mandau and HQ fucking Heca to stand up against an actual 2 handed DD, update or not. Do you realize how bad the people you play with are? Do they?

[mallister]

anectdotal would be one person showing up w/o any parsed evidence to back it up and saying 'one time, in band camp, i outparsed a riddil war.'

people have been outparsing riddil wars with well-geared aggressive 2h DD/sam for what, 2 years now nearly, and coming forward with parses showing it. maybe a bit less longer if you take out the period where the 2h adjustment was all borked up. but at any rate, there shouldn't be any suprise here, and it's not just anectdotal.

[evilpaul]

Lol. The graph you just showed indicates TP/delay values before haste, ie. which delay ranges are the most efficient for TP gain. It goes on to say that anything between 480 and 530 is about as good as 180, which you will only get with daggers/katanas and fast DW'd swords. Haste doesn't change your delay or your TP per swing. DW does! If you had enough DW to put your delay around 180, you'd sort of have a case. Disregarding the fact that GAXE delay is right at that hump in the middle that's among the most efficient in the whole range, of course.



They aren't equivocal, so what's your basis in painting seigan tanks as MP sinks again? Oh right, there was none.

I've learned from this thread that MNK/WARs aren't MP sinks because with Counterstance, Double Attack, Berserk, etc mobs die so fast you won't be an MP sink unless the other DDs suck. Just Ride Berserk and spam WS.

[Maaglin]

I've learned from this thread that MNK/WARs aren't MP sinks because with Counterstance, Double Attack, Berserk, etc mobs die so fast you won't be an MP sink unless the other DDs suck. Just Ride Berserk and spam WS.

Yeah, no one has mentioned seigan/third eye at all or how to manage switching between hasso and seigan.

[Tempyst]

Yeah, no one has mentioned seigan/third eye at all or how to manage switching between hasso and seigan.

No as soon as you put a merit into great axe/polearm/scythe/great katana the number key assigned to seigan spontaneously breaks and never comes back. All hail 2005 era game playing techniques forever

[Cadsuane]

I've learned from this thread that MNK/WARs aren't MP sinks because with Counterstance, Double Attack, Berserk, etc mobs die so fast you won't be an MP sink unless the other DDs suck. Just Ride Berserk and spam WS.

I've learned that the arresting influence of self-important princess healers who want to AFK during merit parties can count for more than any desire to get better exp rates.

[evilpaul]

So what's the difference in EXP/hr where you have people using Seigan fulltime or /NIN in a party where you get Chain #180 before somebody has to go pee/smoke/jerkoff/whatever and a party where you get Chain #180 with people fulltime Hasso /WAR+Berserk before somebody has to go pee/smoke/jerkoff/whatever?

Could somebody crunch some numbers on that for me please? I'm genuinely curious.

[TybudX]

Well, consider that using Seigan and 3rd Eye can actually generate free offensive attacks, while Utsusemi does nothing but take up the time used casting it. Which do you think produces more DoT?

[Max™]

I actually try to time S+TE so they activate just as I swing, rather then just before a round, but I'm super anal about shit like that when I merit.

Also: did that guy back there REALLY argue that Ridill gains TP better, because the reduced delay when fully hasted gives favorable TP/hit rates?

Nevermind that HASTE DOESN'T FUCKING REDUCE TP PER HIT, YOU MOOK!

Btw, I've never seen Retaliate kick in off an anticipate.

As for Chain 180 with defensive players vs Chain 180 with offensive players, let's call it 2 hours defensive vs 1 and a half hours offensive, totally not exact numbers, but that's basically what you get.

More merits for your time, thus more merits for your money, and all you had to do was turn your MP into damage by curing me.

[TybudX]

Don't forget the part where he went:

Pre-2 handed update Ridill WAR/NIN > THF/NIN = post 2-handed update WAR/NIN > THF/NIN

Since he can 'walk all over' every 2 hander but an Amano SAM (and he comes close to that, as his parse shows), against non-piercing bonus mobs, on his THF no less, then obviously Ridill WAR/NIN mops the floor with 2 handers still.

Clearly this guy gets some real winners in his merit parties. I bet the Amano cries itself to sleep fat night.

[Maaglin]

I think a "goodbye to you" is in order here at this point.

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/74867...-transfer.html

[Marcicus]

Btw, I've never seen Retaliate kick in off an anticipate.

Especially when you have to take damage in order for it to kick in anyway..

[Gredival]

Lol. The graph you just showed indicates TP/delay values before haste, ie. which delay ranges are the most efficient for TP gain. It goes on to say that anything between 480 and 530 is about as good as 180, which you will only get with daggers/katanas and fast DW'd swords. Haste doesn't change your delay or your TP per swing. DW does! If you had enough DW to put your delay around 180, you'd sort of have a case. Disregarding the fact that GAXE delay is right at that hump in the middle that's among the most efficient in the whole range, of course.

I'm not really a math major so it's hard for me to explain this concept. But try think about this for a second. We all know haste has increasing marginal returns. But by your logic it shouldn't. I's not like having more haste changes the way haste works (like how the TP formulas switch). The equation is constant. So why does haste have increasing marginal returns?

It's an artifact of math from how haste works as a divisor in the equations. The same sort of thing is in effect with your base delay. Reducing the top of the equation proportionally (i.e. by the same amount of haste) doesn't yield proportionally similar results when you process the rest of the damage equation. There turn out to be "sweet spots" in base delay to be where you'll get better effective results in reduction from your haste.

They aren't equivocal, so what's your basis in painting seigan tanks as MP sinks again? Oh right, there was none.

I argue the conditions which are relevant should be what actually produces the best XP; we shouldn't have to assume whatever is optimal to a person if what is optimal is harmful to the party as a whole (because of things such as sponging)

Proving that point, and only that point, (again, I will repeat: we shouldn't have to assume whatever is optimal to a person if what is optimal is harmful to the party as a whole), is what the example of the Kclub DRK and MNK/WAR was for.

So when I admit Seigan/3E wasn't equivocal I mean that yes, Seigan obviously isn't as bad at sponging. But I'm saying the fact it's not as bad means nothing because the logic justifying it is the same though "This produces optimal damage for me, thus it is fair" is faulty.

Therefore, the argument is that if it turns out that Seigan/3E is too spongy then it should be excluded. This if-then statement only follows though if we can first agree that conditions should be stipulated around what is XP optimal, not DMG-for-Every-DD optimal.

So it's now about whether Seigan/3E is in fact too spongy. My arguments about this do not rely on the comparison to Kclubs or MNK/WARs.

Are the logical relationships between my points now sufficiently clear?

Really, Gredival, you keep trying to back this conception that relies on /nin to work, and even then, as you admit yourself, it's almost a wash. If WAR/NIN with Perdu and WAR/NIN with Ridill are almost completely identical, what do you think happens when the big boys come out and use real DD jobs?

Which is the whole purpose about the debate about if /SAM is too spongy...

And it's not really a wash, at least in my opinion, 4-10% is a lot of speed. However people have their own inflated ideas about what RR vs. Rampage comes down to. If someone provides the numbers for that, we can discuss the math more.

Again I never set out to prove Ridill vs. GAxe /SAM since I think it's moot due to sponging. But I do acknowledge Hasso does a lot, but we have to mitigate it somewhat because you won't be full timing it. I feel in this situation yes you'll probably out the Ridill but he'll probably be a lot less spongy.

Your whole idea that the Ridill build gets TP faster goes to shit in the face of a 6 hit build, Retaliation, Counter Attacks, and 3rd Eye. Then you get to worry about 2 handers being buffed with 2x Minuet instead of Madrigal/Minuet. Then you get to worry about Raging Rush having higher average damage than Rampage.

But... it doesn't. At least not with /NIN. You are ignoring the god damn math.

Yes there is a 5-hit build (I'm going to take RR landing as a hit). I accounted for it in that giant post you obviously can't read because anything but GA for any situation is blasphemous. Comparatively Ridill is a 5.5-round build. But it's shown, in the math, that the Ridill is still be faster than the GA 5-hit build. Why? Because a *full* extra round for the Ridill takes 6.8 seconds. The Great Axe is taking 8.33 extra seconds to get five rounds already because of its higher delay.

Now yes if we assume /SAM it's slightly different. Hasso is namely the big one. But here's a large math errors you are committing in your glorious "lolspam2HWS!!!"

Retaliation occurs only when you're taking a hit. So if you want to squabble that GA Wars get more out of retaliation than Ridill WARs, you're back biting the argument that GA Wars are not sponging. There's a larger problem at hand here, we're back to inefficiently trading MP for TP.

Yes, you can counter on Seigan. But that's not a retaliate. For a /SAM using Seigan and Third Eye, what we're actually talking about is a 2-5% extra counter rate. This is a 2-5% chance to land one extra hit, in that small subsection of situations where you have hate. This seems just sort of irrelevant compared to a 4-10% differential in pure speed.

And you still completely ignore the fact that /sam does not make you more of a 'sponge' unless the other DDs you are meriting with are considerably worse than you.
edit - and if that's the case, /nin isn't going to make you less of a sponge

When we're talking Mamools, picked because that's the situation unfavorable to Ridills we are talking about the potential for AOEs that /SAM does not help you avoid.

We can talk about Birds, then, yes you don't sponge... but you lose a great deal of your offensive differential vs. Ridill WARs when you drop down to the weaker merit mob. Doesn't matter if you have higher potential when you cap so relatively early.

I'm not even going to comment on the claim that you 'walk all over' 2 handed DDs on your THF. No, fuck it, I am. They were either afk, dead, or just really, really bad players. Really fucking bad. You better have a Mandau and HQ fucking Heca to stand up against an actual 2 handed DD, update or not. Do you realize how bad the people you play with are? Do they?

Nope, no Mandau. No AFKs in those parses, no deaths (well there were, but I paused parse), and they are decent players. I've had many people tell me, in laughable gear and elite gear, there is no way my THF would be competitive with them much less outparse them.

The fact is I lost to the BB Mnk too. But what I note is that both of the well geared speed oriented DD's came in before the 2Hs, and the not so well geared speed oriented DD did not. Again I think this points to the natural bias towards speed that exists in XP.

But feel free to come and parse against me if, like with Ridill, you just can't believe that someone can do any damage, even against relatively weak XP mobs, unless they're swinging something the same size as themselves.

Don't forget the part where he went:

Pre-2 handed update Ridill WAR/NIN > THF/NIN = post 2-handed update WAR/NIN > THF/NIN

Since he can 'walk all over' every 2 hander but an Amano SAM (and he comes close to that, as his parse shows), against non-piercing bonus mobs, on his THF no less, then obviously Ridill WAR/NIN mops the floor with 2 handers still.

Clearly this guy gets some real winners in his merit parties. I bet the Amano cries itself to sleep fat night.

Once again, superb selective reading. I pointed out the anecdotal strawman you made by making my own. I made the argument that if anecdotals are valid so are mine, and used my anecdotal evidence to draw a ridiculous conclusion, just like you.

You call for math, then you reject math with your parses. Then you reject any parses that contradict those that you want to uphold.

What I see is... Basically GA is god, just because, and anything that contradicts that, be it math or parse, is wrong, but anything that upholds your point, needs no proof.

Nevermind that HASTE DOESN'T FUCKING REDUCE TP PER HIT, YOU MOOK!

See above. The chart was ill deployed on my part.

I was responding to this claim: x amount of haste will give you y increased proportion in rate of attacks which is completely irrespective of what your delay is. Which was a response to the my claim Haste benefits lower delays.

What I wanted/should have tried to illustrate is there is mathematical artifact of how damage is calculated that certain delays have better haste returns similar to how certain delays. This is why haste has increasing marginal returns and why haste benefits lower delays more.

Btw, I've never seen Retaliate kick in off an anticipate.

Talk to this man here.

Tybudx:You do know that Seigan can activate a counter attack, right? you do know that Retaliation procs on anticipates?

[Max™]

What I wanted/should have tried to illustrate is there is mathematical artifact of how damage is calculated that certain delays have better haste returns similar to how certain delays. This is why haste has increasing marginal returns and why haste benefits lower delays more.

What?

200 Delay x 25% Haste = 150 Delay
500 Delay x 25% Haste = 375 Delay

200 Delay x 80% Haste = 40 Delay
500 Delay x 80% haste = 100 Delay

200 - 150 = 50, 200 - 40 = 160
500 - 375 = 125, 500 - 100 = 400

So respectively you go from losing 50 and 160 delay, to losing 125 and 400 delay, as you go from capped gear to capped total haste (incidentally capping total haste is basically impossible for non-2hers last I checked, no hasso hax).

Now, consider Maneater/Ridill, 276 + 240 x .8 = 412~

412 at 25% Haste = 309, a gain of -103 Delay
504 at 25% Haste = 378, a gain of -126 Delay
504 at 35% Hasso+Haste = 327, a gain of -177 Delay

Wow, it looks like higher delays lose more delay for a set amount of haste, math works apparently. (A set percentage subtracted from two numbers will remove a larger amount from the larger number, obviously)

In the actual way the game works, both delays gain roughly the same amount of total damage dealt from a set amount of haste, but strictly speaking you can NOT say that lower delays benefit more mathematically, because the opposite is true.

You CAN say that multi-hitting weapons benefit more from haste, and on that I would concede that Ridill gains more compared to a non-multi-hitting Great Axe.