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[Fridell]

Drace speaks the truth.
ON topic, a Kikoku NIN outparsed my SAM today @ MMJ, so did my friend on her DRG, and I beat her up many times on NIN MNK DRK before, and so did I as SAM.

[Callisto]

Just curious as to what kind of averages you actually see on Kaiten on something like MMJSP mobs? I've never partied with an Amano SAM myself, only well-geared Hagun SAM/WARs, and their WS averages never seemed to top what my WAR(geared above-average, but no GA merits or Ebody) did with RR with the same buffs. Is the gap between Hagun Y/G/K and Amano Kaitens really that large?

[Raen Ryong]

The thing about Y/G/K is that their damage starts quite high and ignoring DA procs, it "plateaus" early due to the attack bonus (it's a similar idea to critical hits). On weak stuff like merit mobs, it means that the damage will cap earlier than it will on multihit weaponskills in particular, or any weaponskill with a higher max potential. The reason Y/G/K are so brilliant is because their minimum potential is really high!

Kaiten will outdamage then given enough attack due to 3.00fTP vs ~2.00fTP on Gekko, with 75% vs 60% STR mod not making up this difference (essentially Kaiten at potential is just under 50% stronger).

EDIT: Amano of course making this difference even larger since it's the stronger weapon.

[Drace]

Yes, Kaiten absolutely rapes xp mobs. Averages are obviously going to depend on your buffs/food/gear etc, but if I were to go out with Hagun for YGK and average ~1100ish in a good meripo, I will be averaging 1400+ Kaitens in that same setup. Easily

[Zatho]

From being in a shell with 3 bravuras and 1 amano I can say from watching them play that I fully agree with drace. Is gonna come down to how agressive said person is on their job and how much u push ur job. Can't comment on apoc but I can say Sam/war or war/Sam with a relic on the right hands are both really fucking strong if the person gives 110%.

[Neoex]

I can assure you my playstyle when im at my home computer is to never have my weapon at my side if im targeting thru mobs Einherjar, merits etc., i fits a pop mob im meditating before the pop and every second i can giving it everything, thats how the DDs in my shell are, everyone is going 110%. My merits are capped and my gear is very near cap(just need a few +1 WS pieces), if other people hit the same macros as me and do more damage, well im happy for them. Because your E body is better than my E body.

I agree both Relic Bravura and Relic Amano are EXTREMELY strong DDs probably among the strongest in the game across the board. But from my experiences the SAM is usually putting more damage on the parse than the WAR. Maybe its my linkshells playstyle, maybe my Bravura isnt as strong as the next, but im just saying thats how it pans out.

Linkshell usuaully using 3 Bravura, 1 Amano, and 4-6 Apocs in Einherjar or JoJ burn or Kirin burn for example. 90% of situations march/march for our whiney apocs

[Drace]

Why would it beat DRK "for sure"? Both have 6hit, DRK abuses haste more and puts out heavier melee DoT, SAM puts out higher WS frequency (DRK does more per WS unless we're talking Polearm). Berserk only amplifies SAM DoT in a merit setting which will still be inferior to DRK's, and 10DA is only slightly better than Diabolic Eye. DRK has higher accuracy too.

Is it really so obvious? No idea how people draw this conclusion. Seems like it would be down to the players.

If you are talking about relic vs relic, you almost nailed the reason. SAM will put out a much higher frequency of WS, and the average will also be much higher. You should be close enough to ACC cap that the advantage of Diabolic Eye won't come close to being as effective as the DA for SAM (boosting both the WS frequency and dmg). Whether you are using Guillotine for the extra dmg, or relying on a mix of Guillo + Catastophe for the haste, they won't pull down the same numbers as Kaiten.

If you are talking non relics in general, I think the comparison would be much closer, but Kaiten really just amplifies SAMs greatest strength to a degree that it is very hard to match for other 2 handers.

[Zatho]

I understand what u are saying and playing with people that I know go balls pretty much on their job is always a fun experience. It comes down in a way to not every apoc being a taint or every amano being a drace. Sadly u gonna tend to meet more retards with gil than impressive players.

[Neosutra]

I want to be in a LS where all of my melees are balls to the wall god sends, where my cotanks can actually take hate off me, where my whms have as many gear swaps as I do, and where I could point to any given person in the LS and know they could lead the event if I died that instant.

Maybe when the servers all come together 10 years from now =/

[Indalecia]

Preach it

[Killkenny]

Yes, Kaiten absolutely rapes xp mobs. Averages are obviously going to depend on your buffs/food/gear etc, but if I were to go out with Hagun for YGK and average ~1100ish in a good meripo, I will be averaging 1400+ Kaitens in that same setup. Easily

I wish my WS averages were that high, certainly with Hagun I never averaged much over 1k with any regularity and that was with similar WS gear to what I have now, no more than a few extra str/attack in upgrades.

1.4k on Kaiten also seems a little high, with 2brds and cor I have managed just under 1.3k average (short party and more DAs than normal), other DD was a drk so he wasn't particularly interested in lining up with me for overwhelm but still, I think 1.4k is overestimating it a bit.

I will agree its got a lot to do with playstyle but I have a lot of other well geared sam war drk and drg to measure against in events like Einherjar and Limbus and its very rare that another DD will come close to matching my damage (if they do its usually cause I got killed).

Yoichi sam is something I'm dying to try but it will be a while before I have the means to upgrade still. Having spoken to a couple of owners I was told 2 very different stories. The first being that although it will destroy at bird camp it won't 'quite' be up with Amano in instances where you can fulltime hasso (Einherjar, Mamools, some limbus, Jailers etc). The other person said that with 2 brds or brd + cor it will destroy an Amano sam or any other DD against any target.

[Zatho]

Thats prolly the reason why I wouldn't change my ls ever, while they can make u laugh until u pee urself literally. The bastards make u wanna do better everytime u get on ur job and our leader is like some sort of genius cyborg seriously.

[Drace]

Person 2 was correct. If you have the support (2 BRD/ BRD + COR) I honestly don't know of anything in the game that will put out like Soboro Yoichi. Full time Hasso will obviously close the gap with Amano, but the Accuracy and DMG consistency of Namas is pretty shocking. I have parsed a good 600k xp on it up to now, as well as using it in all Dynamis/ Einherjar/ Salvage zones, and I really don't know how else to describe it than completely broken.

Obviously, for anything you don't want to feed lots of TP, your fun is up, but even on stuff like Salvage bosses where I want the MNK to be main tank, I can full time Hasso, melee on Amano, spam Namas, and the Chariot hardly gives me the time of day.

All of this not to mention the fact that you will be self chaining 75% of the time you pop a WS, if the mob stays alive that long. It's basically a wet dream for balls to the wall players, and nice to poke fun at friends who eat all the feather tickles, firespits etc while you sit back full timing Hasso and popping WS's at a 3 to 1 rate to anyone else in the pty.

The only negative I have found on it so far, is that if you have been spamming Namas, and you find yourself in a sudden need to be the tank, chances are you are very low on the hate list.

Edit: On the 1400 Kaiten average - I remember many 1300+ averages full timing Seigan, but I was trying to give a estimate off the top of my head comparing to my memory of using Hagun. I imagine our ws gear is similar enough that 1300ish might be a solid figure for MMJ average.

[Mansin]

This is not accurate.

I can tell you from a top tier DD, being you have RELIC and all the best TP gear, and all the best WS gear. There is no way a Bravura WAR/SAM can keep up with a SAM/WAR, neither can a DRK/SAM with likewise relic and all top of the line gear.

I say these after tons of parses on everything from Jailers, ZNM, Einherjar, Kirins, Merits...

Amano SAM geared with all the best gear, will beat a Bravura Warrior and an Apoc DRK 90% of the time, there will always be special situations with 2hours or whatever, but the SAM is incredibly tought to out damage.

Here would be the sets im referencing:
WAR - - FFXIAH.com
DRK - - FFXIAH.com
SAM - - FFXIAH.com

You should get a six hit.

[Kellanved]

You don't actually need to rely on any hypothetical or resort to any of the "math" theory crafting, for whatever they are worth, to see how Neoex experience is an accurate observation of the jobs outputs.

As mentioned before in various other threads that often appear about the topic. Given the current state of the game, in merit-like situations where there are generally two main categories of damage output( that produced by individual hits, and that produced by weaponskills) the general proposition regarding the jobs in question, is that because weaponskills generally produce more damage output than individual melee hits, the job with the capability to produce the most weaponskills will produce the most damage WHERE melee average, weaponskill average, number of attacks/round are all relatively equal.

1. The advantages of the WAR and DRK job compare to the SAM job are the following:
• Generally weapons with higher D rating –generally producing higher melee average (DRK &WAR) – Examples I’ve seen are WAR, DRK (Perdu, Bravura) (180-200) compare to SAM (Onimaru, etc) (160-170)
• Generally superior weaponskills – (WAR only, being King’s justices) examples of what I tend to see top out at 1.1Ks, DRK guillotine and Cata are not superior to Gekko/Rana

2. These weapons also come with a disadvantage compare to SAM GKT. They have higher delay, where haste totals are equal/similar, they will swing less than GKT in general.

There should be no question that samurai is most capable of producing the greatest number of weaponskills. The issue, however, is that while the non-relic GKT SAM will swing a little more often than the WAR, the melee damage total is still lower than WAR due to the melee average being significantly lower. (SAM160-170 v. WAR180-200)

Additionally, in comparison to the WAR, again while the SAM will produce a bit more weaponskills, the WAR maintains a consistently higher WS average. (SAM900-1K v. WAR1K-1.1K)

There is a reason why amanomurakumo has been recognized as such a powerful weapon, though few people actually seem to get it. When you give the SAM something like a relic weapon, you effectively close the gap of melee average discussed above and provide a higher WS average, while maintaining the capability to produce the most weaponskills.

What was 160-170 v. 180-200 before becomes 190~ v. 200 melee average, 900-1K v. 1.1K~ becomes 1.2K(kaiten) v. 1.1K(KJ) WS averages.

With all the above premises being generally true, and not all that complicated to deduce, I often find it confusing when some players say they can’t see/accept the experiences described by Neoex as an accurate conclusion. But then again these are the same people that loleverything.

@ Callisto, the average kaiten I saw recently was 1.2K over 64 WSs at MMJSP BRDX2. I haven’t had extensive experience with that WS so…

@Drace, where the target is not weak to piercing damage, Soboro/Yoichi is not superior to the jobs/weapons(SAM-amano, WAR-Bravura etc) I discussed above for the same reasons covered. Using a Soboro, you have no DoT at all. The majority of your output is WS. I’ve had some credible experience with this to understand it first hand.

[Killkenny]

Damn now I've got to figure out how to make enough gil. I understand the mechanics of it and how it completely changes your offensive limits based on support (its rare I eat anything more expensive than a sub except during salvage as I tend to tank everything), but I really didn't know how impressive Namas would be as there are no NA bow owners on shiva that I'm aware of. Is the performance good without bard/cor support or would that be a definite time to swap to Amano.

I had been told Namas was a very accurate WS but I wasn't sure of the rattack and str influence. As it is such a high accuracy WS does it have an attack bonus or is it heavily dependant on attack like Kaiten (if I make a concerted effort to get it I'd like to know which WS pieces to aim for such as maat's cap vs barbut)?

[Kipling]

You should get a six hit.

I would assume he eats Carbonara?

[Marcicus]

Should be using Arrabbiata, but good luck finding people to consistently make that for you. The last one sold over two years ago on my server.

[Knyghtmayre]

Arrabbiata isn't really that much of a pain to make, it's the same as red curry really and that's quite abundant ;\

Well on second thought, it is slightly more of a pain, but anyone that can make Carbonara (that is, has NK) and can make red curry, can make arrabbiata.

[Max™]

War = Sam > Basically everything else outside of a few situations.

Drk > Jesus in zergs, Kclub leading the pack.

Drg > Your mom and her cousin at birds with a pimp setup, and DB rapes face in many other situations, seriously a fucking ridiculously awesome WS.

You need a 6 hit if you're being destroyed that badly on War, and I wonder what WS you're using as well. Meta isn't that bad last I checked, KJ and RR never stop pwning in their respective areas, Kaiten is naturally badass for low end mobs, but so is RR with a solid build.

I've pushed over 1.1k as a taru without ebody and nhead and shit, if you aren't beating that WITH that stuff, +5 base Str, and a D99 weapon... well, I dunno what's up there.

Nevermind if you're in a situation where you can get Retaliates, the whole reason I drool over Bravura is being able to ride Meta's aftermath with hasso and retaliation haxxorz.