Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn

[Gunitsoldier]

Dear god that doesn't exist Firas, I find it hilarious that you still try to convince us.

Reply to this one question, I shall ask no more of thee:

How the fuck can you believe in something, devote your entire way of life to something while there is absolutely NO proof of it?

[Neosutra]

Im less concerned with his belief in something with no proof (all theist do this) and more concerned with the fact that he is ignoring -every- single point that was PROVEN wrong when posted for his religion being "better" and "more scientifically right" than others..

"All my foundations were shown to be incorrect, but that doesnt change anything". Not very solid foundations if they arent what actually make you believe.

Perhaps you believe out of the same "blind faith" you laugh at the christians for?

Hmm.

[kareface]

I finally got around to watching PBS: Muhammad Legacy of a Prophet. I was expecting to write a large critique of the show, but it's mostly just a portrayal and doesn't assert anything as truth. Most of the people they have on the program are religious figures or members of Islam already. The show, to me at least, seems more like an attempt to explain the origins of Islam to people who are not Muslim. Nothing in the video offers any evidence to support the idea of him being a prophet. I actually find the video to be rather lacking in detail about the origins of the religion.

It's a nice video, but does nothing to establish truth. It's clear that he was an important person to many. The same can be said about the pharaohs, and I assume that you don't believe in Amon-Ra? Even if he accomplished many things in his life, it is not evidence for his divinity. There have been many people who can be compared to Mohammad throughout history, but none of them will be given credit as a prophet.

Finally, this doesn't do anything to help support the case for the Qu'ran. This only talks about the life and death of the prophet. Even if he was told what he was told by god, many of the traditions that are held today were not known or recorded during his life time. Even if he was hearing the word of god, there is no proof that it's the same word that is written in the Qu'ran. If you take into account the other issues with historical inaccuracies, internal contradictions and conflicts with known science, there is only one conclusion that can be drawn: The Qu'ran is likely the word of man, not god. If that is true, then the proclimations of the text can't be taken on faith.

[Faris]

Kareface

Muhammad got everything to do with the Quran...he introduced us to it; it came through him, and to know the Quran, it is very important to know who Muhammad was. its absolutely relevant to this argument.


Amon-Ra..riiight, i'm talking to you about 3 major religions in the world, the faith (that there is a God) of almost 95% of people in the world and the most mentioned man in the world.....and you're comparing this with an Egyptian mythology..you can't be serious.


I've found answers and replies on exactly what you have asked, as a matter of fact those accusations of yours were answered many many times before and were answered many many times before too.


you quoting a german who says the quran has language faults, are you serious??
you ignored the fact that there are arabs who's sole goal was to prove the Quran is false, and they couldn't. a german in the 21st century trying to "dissect" a language and a style of writing 1,400 years old...

It's all about faith; in the end, the Quran has some proofs about creationism, and God. but when we dig and dig, its all about faith. But nothing is false in the Quran.

like i mentioned before, i was going to translate a website to you; but i don't think its going to change anything, im not looking for a pat on the back from anyone here, and I'm not trying to invite you to my religion. It was the love for my belief that made me go this far with you. you're very biased; taking information from scientists that prove the Quran is wrong, but there are other scientists that prove the Quran is right....

here is the link if you think i am just bluffing and my religion has failed me:
http://www.55a.net/firas/arabic/?pag...select_page=23
you can make out its about the subject we were arguing about (looking at the pictures and some English translations) but sorry im not going to translate all that and waste more time with you


The funny thing is Muslims are told to believe in science, Jesus and Moses. but none of the followers of those believe in Islam or Muhammad.

[Max™]

You do not believe in science.

No one should, it is not a matter of faith.


I will give you that, I can not falsify the Qu'ran as far as I know.

Know what something which can not even in principle be falsified is?

I'll tell you what it isn't, it isn't a truth.

[Zilong]

Wow, I'm going through all this epiphany, and now I must go blow up some infidels in order to repent.

[Neosutra]

double post.

[Neosutra]

It's all about faith; in the end, the Quran has some proofs about creationism, and God. but when we dig and dig, its all about faith. But nothing is false in the Quran.

taking information from scientists that prove the Quran is wrong, but there are other scientists that prove the Quran is right....

The funny thing is Muslims are told to believe in science, Jesus and Moses. but none of the followers of those believe in Islam or Muhammad.

1. Several "false hoods" were pointed out in this thread over the last couple pages. How can you state that none exist? You pretty much ignored them..

2. If you admit it is all faith, do you retract your previous statement calling christianity "all about faith", and islam not?

3. And I have yet to see a "scientist" that proved the quran was true in a peer reviewed accepted process, and not simply "i believe". There are christian scientist too, that doesnt make it any more true.

[Gunitsoldier]

Stop ignoring my question Firas.
Either admitt you're avoiding it because you can't answer it or use some excuse again like: not wasting my time on you.

[zoobernut]

Firas I know a lot of people are talking to you and asking you questions but just because I am curious how it works:

How did Greek, Roman, and Egyptian religions make the jump from fact to "mythology" at some point in history?

What is the difference between their religions and yours that makes it ok to call them a mythology while your religion is the one truth and fact?

In general how do you differentiate between which religions are the truth and which ones are mythologies?

Do you believe that Christianity and Judaism both of which believe in only one God believe in the same God as you and they just got all the other stuff wrong or do you believe that there is only one god and your religion panders to the one true god?

I am just curious how it works between different religions and how you can believe in one and call another a mythology when there is no real evidence supporting one over another. That is not an argument that they are all wrong or all right I am just saying that beyond what fallible man has said there is no way to know which one is true and which ones are false since they rely on faith not proof.

[kareface]

Muhammad got everything to do with the Quran...he introduced us to it; it came through him, and to know the Quran, it is very important to know who Muhammad was. its absolutely relevant to this argument.

The problem is, the content of the book was written after he died. It was collected over a period of several hundred years, and to make matters worse, a great deal of it was plagiarized. Even if some of the book is based in truth, that does not make the entire book true. It's not even accurate historically. If you look at the scholars at the time there are many major discrepancies between what is claimed by the Qu'ran, and what actually happened.

Martin Luther King was an important person who came from a humble beginning. If several hundred years after his death a book claiming that he rode a pink unicorn and held the scull of Hitler in his left hand at ever rally he ever went to, would you believe it? Would you believe anything else in that book, even if a few points were accurate? If one thing is wrong in the book, you MUST question the book at whole. It's either a book from the words of god, or it's not. If anything in it is false, then it's not. We have already established many falsehoods, those being only the tip of the iceberg.

Amon-Ra..riiight, i'm talking to you about 3 major religions in the world, the faith (that there is a God) of almost 95% of people in the world and the most mentioned man in the world.....and you're comparing this with an Egyptian mythology..you can't be serious.

What is the difference between them? Think of what the Egyptians accomplished? The monuments to their leaders and gods were way beyond their time. They understood the moments of celestial objects better then anyone in their time. They built structures that still stand to this day. I believe that what they accomplished it more impressive then what Mohammad accomplished during his life time. Why are their gods not worthy? How are they different? They made fantastic claims, and your book even stole some of their stories. Why do you think that your religion is unique?

you quoting a german who says the quran has language faults, are you serious??
you ignored the fact that there are arabs who's sole goal was to prove the Quran is false, and they couldn't. a german in the 21st century trying to "dissect" a language and a style of writing 1,400 years old...

I didn't ignore the 'fact', because a fact wasn't presented. You simply asserted that this was ture. I don't want to here assertations, I want to see something that has been established by a consensus in the scientific community. I want to see something that was pulbished in a peer reviewed journal. Otherwise you are simply making claims that are unsupported by facts.

Also, we aren't talking about some random person. We are talking about someone who is world renowned for his understanding of the scripture. Not to mention, it's not only him, there is a consensus in the community of the most educated and knowledgeable historians on the topic. But, even if the book was written perfectly, it was still written hundreds of years after his death. Even if it was the word of god when it was recited, we can prove that aspects of the text are false, inaccurate or conflict with itself.

But nothing is false in the Quran.

Yes, there is. Mountains don't prevent earth quakes. A member of the Pacific Northwest Seismic Network even verified this. Please provide me with a creditable source for suggesting otherwise. Embryos don't develop bone before muscle. Don't ignore things that have been long scene known. Instead of trying to prove the Qu'ran right, why don't you send an email to a major university, a place that isn't bias. Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, UCLA. Ask their Seismology departments or embryology departments and see what they have to say on the matter. Stop looking for resources that validate your position but are dubious in nature.

like i mentioned before, i was going to translate a website to you; but i don't think its going to change anything, im not looking for a pat on the back from anyone here, and I'm not trying to invite you to my religion. It was the love for my belief that made me go this far with you. you're very biased; taking information from scientists that prove the Quran is wrong, but there are other scientists that prove the Quran is right....

If they really could prove the Qu'ran is right, then it would make it's way to the text books. Proof doesn't just involve making a statement and asserting that it's true. Most scientists are wrong, that's why there is a peer review process. Show me a single peer reviewed article that proves the truth of the Qu'ran as a whole. Show me a single peer reviewed article that proves the case of any of the points I made in my earlier post. I welcome you to translate the 'scientists' that proved the truth of the Qu'ran, because they can't escape the facts.

here is the link if you think i am just bluffing and my religion has failed me:
http://www.55a.net/firas/arabic/?pag...select_page=23
you can make out its about the subject we were arguing about (looking at the pictures and some English translations) but sorry im not going to translate all that and waste more time with you

I'll see if I can get my friend to translate it for me. However, this isn't proof. This isn't a scientific paper. This isn't something that would even be acknowledged by the community. Because it's not based on actual facts. You can complain all you like, but bone does not come before muscle.

The funny thing is Muslims are told to believe in science, Jesus and Moses. but none of the followers of those believe in Islam or Muhammad.

The reason is, if you learn the truth, you understand the falsehoods.

[Conformity]

I never quite understood the point of debating things in which there was no solid scientific evidence for. It's kind of just a battle of wits, while that is fun and all it still does nothing but surmount to a cock size contest. I mean if your going to debate the merit of actual religious text (which there has been some) that is great because there are lots of interesting things to debate in the short stories which compile most religious texts. However, debating the existence of a god is for the fool believer. My father once told me dont get into arguments with fool because from afar people cant tell them apart.

Now if we are going to have a dick size contest lets post sum diks.

[Gunitsoldier]

You first

[thetruepandagod]

My father once told me dont get into arguments with fool because from afar people cant tell them apart.

I always liked the saying never argue with an idiot because they will just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Which fits pretty damn well in this thread.

[Conformity]

You first

http://i39.tinypic.com/29dvd6a.jpg

[Gregorio]

Faith is fact. If George Bluth taught us anything it's that.

[Celeste]

Hey guys, sorry to butt in, but what is this thread about? Oh, religious discussion. This post does not exist. Move along.

inb4 godwins law

[Gunitsoldier]

http://i39.tinypic.com/29dvd6a.jpg

Well played, kind sir.

[Faris]

[QUOTE=zoobernut;2789750]Firas I know a lot of people are talking to you and asking you questions but just because I am curious how it works:

How did Greek, Roman, and Egyptian religions make the jump from fact to "mythology" at some point in history?

lack of evidence, logic, consistancy, and their beliefs kinda died with them. Tells you alot of its caliber, if it didnt survive to this age. But lets not go too far, there are religions now that just don't make any sense; scientology, is one..then comes the great country india, with hundreds of religions there; worshipping the son, the cow, the bat..there are religions that worship women...read more about those religions and you will find out it does not have a very solid base.

What is the difference between their religions and yours that makes it ok to call them a mythology while your religion is the one truth and fact?

my religion is consistent (don't mind what kareface says), survived til this day without a single alteration and not a single mistake. the ideology of my religion is rational and has a stronger base in regards to philosphy, good morale, and evidence. Its really deeper than just this, these type of questions need research and books to read.

In general how do you differentiate between which religions are the truth and which ones are mythologies?

Religion is not just believing, oh ok this God is there...ok, makes sense, lets worship him. Its more to it, you read about the religion, its history, what does it say about different issues in life, does it make sense to you, is it right? there are many aspects, not just following blindly. Its a whole system, you gotta study it first, and you'll know of the quality or truth in the religion.

Do you believe that Christianity and Judaism both of which believe in only one God believe in the same God as you and they just got all the other stuff wrong or do you believe that there is only one god and your religion panders to the one true god?

I believe in all 3 religions, their books and their prophets; Jesus and Moses. Their God is my God, but their teachings and books have been altered by man. therefore, Islam was brought down to us. In the bible and the torat it talks about Muhammad; very clearly too.

"The Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you."
[Bible - John 14:26]

{Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "A messenger will come after me,named Ahmad} [Quran 61:6].

The chief priests and Levites asked John the Baptist, "If you are not the Christ (Messiah), and not Elijah - are you THAT Prophet?"
[John 1:20]

When the chief priests and Levites asked John the Baptist who he was, they asked him in a very strange way. First the questioned him as to whether or not he was the anticipated "Messiah" [Christ in Koine Greek]. He was not the "Messiah" that had hoped for. Next they asked if he was the prophet Elijah and again he tells them, "No." Now comes the really strange part. Finally, they asked him if he is "That Prophet?"

Religion came down to us in a sequence, first the unitarian; which simply says believe that there is one God. No system, no guideline to follow. Then Judaism came, and then christianity, and finally Islam.

I am just curious how it works between different religions and how you can believe in one and call another a mythology when there is no real evidence supporting one over another. That is not an argument that they are all wrong or all right I am just saying that beyond what fallible man has said there is no way to know which one is true and which ones are false since they rely on faith not proof.

there is falsehood that is proof what not to follow. and there is proof that man cannot write such a book considering the time, the region and the status to write such a book and prophesize about the future, which so far is true. (yes, im not agreeing what kareface have provided; i found my answers)

[zoobernut]

Thank you Firas that was a very comprehensive and interesting post. You answered my questions very well.

I still think as an outside observer, and this is with my basic knowledge of the different religions, that there are not any differences between the religions that you dub mythology and the religions that you have deemed acceptable.

I think that if you search hard enough for what you called a solid base and sound logic you can find it in any religion because you want it to be there not necessarily because it is actually there.

I find it very fascinating to see how someone who believes in scientology or one of the religions in India can believe in their religion with the same passion and fervor that you believe in yours and yet this fact cannot be understood between different religions.

If someone posted the exact same post as yours and had the exact same evidence and exact same arguments but it was about a different equally old religion that was very fundamentally different from yours what would you say to them?

How would you convince them that they are crazy and wrong and you are right? Where is the proof that your religion is consistent and has never had a single alteration by man and has never made a mistake? How is your religions ideology rational?

my religion is consistent (don't mind what kareface says), survived til this day without a single alteration and not a single mistake. the ideology of my religion is rational and has a stronger base in regards to philosphy, good morale, and evidence.