Milkman 1up Interview 5/22/09

[fantasticdan]

It wasn't halved, it really wasn't that bad at all. IIRC it was proportionate with your level, so yeah maybe if you were 75 it was halved. There were also no tier 2 merits, no pups etc. to worry about.

The way it worked was you would get exp proportionate to your jobs actual level, be it couldn't go under 1/2. You only needed to be like 34-35 to have your exp in a 30 cap zone halved.

[Bakthi]

The way it worked was you would get exp proportionate to your jobs actual level, be it couldn't go under 1/2. You only needed to be like 34-35 to have your exp in a 30 cap zone halved.

This is correct. My LS actually used to do manaburn parties with WHMs, BLMs, and a BRD in Riverne A01 a few times a month. You either had to be 38-42 (although the WHMs really needed 40 for banishga II), or 75 and in merit mode.

It wasn't as good as a sky or KRT party (which were closer to 10k/hour than they were to 6k, if you did it right, and people will claim more in KRT), but it was something different to do, and at least 5-6k/hour. And you got those expensive light crystals RMT were using to synth padded caps, too.

[Plow]

It wasn't as good as a sky or KRT party (which were closer to 10k/hour than they were to 6k, if you did it right, and people will claim more in KRT), but it was something different to do, and at least 5-6k/hour. And you got those expensive light crystals RMT were using to synth padded caps, too.

The exp in KRT was really low per kill, the highest bones were colibri level and the ghosts/hounds were considerably lower. CoP also kinda screwed up that camp by having Vrtra sitting down there untouched for months lol. Not to mention, 1 other party there means you're getting 3-4k tops.

As far as sky, Nexus maybe could push 10k if you had adaberk/ridill wars back then, but that was extraordinarily rare. And, even then, there's actually no way in hell with 16 minute respawns. The best weapon camp couldn't support over ~6k/hr due to lack of spawns, to push 6k you had to slow kills intentionally to allow for the respawns to fit the chain timer, and again the exp per kill was not that great.

URange was the first to give us really strong mobs in an outdoor setting, which despite the glory of colibri and imps for lower tier parties, is still the model for the best exp in the game.

[ronin sparthos]

The exp in KRT was really low per kill, the highest bones were colibri level and the ghosts/hounds were considerably lower. CoP also kinda screwed up that camp by having Vrtra sitting down there untouched for months lol. Not to mention, 1 other party there means you're getting 3-4k tops.

As far as sky, Nexus maybe could push 10k if you had adaberk/ridill wars back then, but that was extraordinarily rare. And, even then, there's actually no way in hell with 16 minute respawns. The best weapon camp couldn't support over ~6k/hr due to lack of spawns, to push 6k you had to slow kills intentionally to allow for the respawns to fit the chain timer, and again the exp per kill was not that great.

URange was the first to give us really strong mobs in an outdoor setting, which despite the glory of colibri and imps for lower tier parties, is still the model for the best exp in the game.

Uleguerand.... where I first actually made solid money EXPing... how I miss thee!

Seriously, 12k/stack Dark Crystals, Demon Horns/Skulls, Ahriman Tears, Dark Spirit Pact, Taurus Horn and random magic scrolls were just awesome. The prices always stayed high because U.Range was a bitch to climb.

Long live U.Range, the best endgame camp to have existed before Colibri faggotry

[Spider-Dan]

Kind of like how magic aggro and hp aggro work in the areas around the mobs you listed?

Prism powder? Silent oil? Ninjutsu? Non-yellow HP?

How is this a relevant comparison to true-detect mobs?

Sky was a campfest, camping for pop items to pop force pop nm's kind of defeats the purpose. Hence the fact that they changed sky to mirror cop style for the most important parts.

So I guess they created Olla Grande with a pop system that "copied" a system that was "invented" years later?

Face it, your beloved CoP pop system was invented in sky by the RoZ team. When Squenix changed a whopping one sky trigger NM to the same pop system that Olla Grande used from the start, they were copying RoZ, not CoP. And all those other NMs I mentioned like Sozu and Alky? Yep, also copied RoZ.

Good rule of thumb: when you think that the CoP team came out with an innovative, smart idea, they probably didn't.

If you don't see how every expansion before and after has either changed to adopt some of cop's strategies (sky, the nm's you mentioned), or built further upon the improvements CoP brought about (enm's are an entirely different beast than bcnm ever were, and directly led to the objective based concepts of assault and nyzul, as well as MMM, and the more interesting campaign ops)

How the hell do you get from "insipid fetch quest to allow to you enter carbon-copy smash-and-grab BC" to "extremely varied objective-based goals, many of which have nothing to do with killing at all"?

ENM is NOTHING like Assault or Nyzul.

They were intentionally trying to prevent people *OVER THE CAP OF THAT ZONE* from going back and leveling there.

Kind of like the way that they prevented people over the level of East Ronfaure [S] from going back and leveling there? OH, WAIT.

Level-sync was the final chance for Squenix to rescind their policy of punishing players for actually using CoP content. They explicitly chose not to. This tells you that CoP level-capped areas are empty, feckless wastelands by design.

Besieged doesn't mean ToAU camps are massively better, it means sanction > signet, which is a big fucking duh, and does not reflect on CoP in the least.

So if I understand you correctly, CoP gets credit for all force-popped NMs anywhere ever (when it didn't even originate the practice), while TAU gets no credit for having an event that gives players a strong incentive to participate by giving significant exp bonuses and incredibly cheap and efficient warping.

In that case, you're right; when you discard all the improvements of other expansions, or inaccurately attribute them to CoP instead, CoP is the best expansion!

And hey guess what, SHIT OTHER THAN MERITS MATTERED THEN. I hate to break it to you but when the vast majority of the population doesn't have a 75 job, the top 5 merit camps really don't mean much.

Last week of CoP: "merits aren't that important, barely anyone has LV75 anywayz"
First week of TAU: "OMFG these merit camps are so amazing WTFFFFF"

I believe your story has a bit of a hole in it.

Insert URange/Bibiki, good gear and skill = 8-10k/hr. Skillchain pt, melee pt, rng pt, any works.

A lot of things have changed since CoP's early days, and claiming CoP didn't improve the situation for both exp and merits rather dramatically is paramount to saying you didn't even play before CoP. That's the only way you could make that statement and honestly believe it.

At the end of the day, CoP camps were no better than RoZ camps. Uletab and KRT existed for the specialists, front weapons and Nexus were there for anyone who wanted them, Lufaise was a nice option for RNG/THF/DRG. (I will kindly ignore your suggestion of exping on mobs that have 2 pops total or that spawn for 1/4 of the day.)

I mean, seriously, if one of the best body pieces in the game for pretty much every job in one way or another isn't worth fighting 10-15 decent challenge mobs (not that you can't mgs it all anyway, I have) because you have to do it in a level cap that doesn't require any extra gear, I really don't know what to tell you.

Whether or not the gear is "worth it" is beside the point.

The point is that you claim that failed philosophies of CoP would be welcomed and embraced (in fact, considered "perfect") today. They clearly would not.

P.S.

As far as sky, Nexus maybe could push 10k if you had adaberk/ridill wars back then, but that was extraordinarily rare. And, even then, there's actually no way in hell with 16 minute respawns. The best weapon camp couldn't support over ~6k/hr due to lack of spawns, to push 6k you had to slow kills intentionally to allow for the respawns to fit the chain timer, and again the exp per kill was not that great.

Wrong.

Decorative Weapons are LV79-81. There are 24 of them in the front rooms of Ru'Avitau. 16min respawn, 84-112xp/kill (98 average). Presuming that you kill every mob in the longest possible timeframe for infinite chain (60sec), you are looking at 24 minutes for 24 kills, receiving (98+117+122+127+137)+(147*19) = 3394 xp/cycle (with 8 of them being respawned at the end).

That puts you at ~8k/hr if you are lazy and do nothing but run to one end, chain them as slowly as you can, wash rinse repeat. If your puller is good enough to plan the kill order, allowing for infinite (slow) chain, that's 8.6k/hr. If you can also time kills so that you aren't letting 8 repop untouched (note: this takes actual skill), you're looking at ~40sec/kill, which sets the upper limit for front weapons at roughly 13k/hr.

edit: Fourth option: run to one end, kill all of them in 16min (or less if you've got it like that), run back to start, wait until 20min mark for some kill leeway, wash rinse repeat. 10k/hour, no skill required.

[Plow]

Prism powder? Silent oil? Ninjutsu? Non-yellow HP?

How is this a relevant comparison to true-detect mobs?

The point is having NM's with aggro around them is not a new concept, be it True Sight, or using other methods to force you to kill them off. True Sight mobs blocking access to major NM's was not a new concept (hi2u beastman strongholds).

And, most importantly, ToAU shits out true sight shit in your face at every possible opportunity. At least in CoP zones the vast majority were DC-T.

So I guess they created Olla Grande with a pop system that "copied" a system that was "invented" years later?

Face it, your beloved CoP pop system was invented in sky by the RoZ team. When Squenix changed a whopping one sky trigger NM to the same pop system that Olla Grande used from the start, they were copying RoZ, not CoP. And all those other NMs I mentioned like Sozu and Alky? Yep, also copied RoZ.

In Zilart the idea was still coming about. The expiremented with the methods for obtaining, (Curtana/Hoto/Cmits style, olla/hornetneedle) CoP brought us a multitude of pop nm's that actually dropped good shit, and the success in CoP convinced them to use the system to fix Ulli.

Good rule of thumb: when you think that the CoP team came out with an innovative, smart idea, they probably didn't.

I'm not saying they came up with it, just that they executed it amazingly, and made it incredibly useful.

But, then, of course, the massive failure of all the other pop nm's in all those empty, worthless zones clearly inspired them to move forward with the ZNM system, which of course is another massive failure.

How the hell do you get from "insipid fetch quest to allow to you enter carbon-copy smash-and-grab BC" to "extremely varied objective-based goals, many of which have nothing to do with killing at all"?

Keep telling yourself ENM were "carbon-copy smash-and-grab," and that any other than boneyard have excessively lame quests to activate. I'll keep laughing about how you've never done an ENM other than Hagun and are doing the equivalent of referring to Assault as a bunch of wall breaking.

ENM is NOTHING like Assault or Nyzul.

You're right, it's definitely not an event you can repeat based on time with objectives different from anything we saw before, which offers substantial reward without excessive time or dedication. Nothing like them at all.

Come back and finish this part of the conversation when you've done toreador's bc or some shit, fuck.

Kind of like the way that they prevented people over the level of East Ronfaure [S] from going back and leveling there? OH, WAIT.

Level-sync was the final chance for Squenix to rescind their policy of punishing players for actually using CoP content. They explicitly chose not to. This tells you that CoP level-capped areas are empty, feckless wastelands by design.

Only if you're stupid enough to believe they're actually "empty, feckless wastelands." Personally, everywhere I look I see Vsallets, Swift Belts, RSE bodies, Soboros, etc., (hell at this point with everyone whoring sam there's soboro groups shouting pretty much every day), and have the common fucking sense to realize they're not even close to abandoned areas.

I've been helping some people through Sea lately, and done some things like swift belt, and you never go all that long at all in those zones without seeing other people.

But, hey, I could say the same shit about Pashow, Jugner, Meriphitaud, UTemple, RancorDen, etc. etc., if I wanted to be intentionally oblivious.

When was the last time you did something in Batallia, Rolanberry, or Saur[tab]?

I fucking dare you to say that doesn't count because of the 3 nm's and the fucking bullshit ACP quests while claiming that CoP zones are abandoned in spite of all the nm's, farming, and missions there...

So if I understand you correctly, CoP gets credit for all force-popped NMs anywhere ever (when it didn't even originate the practice), while TAU gets no credit for having an event that gives players a strong incentive to participate by giving significant exp bonuses and incredibly cheap and efficient warping.

What? CoP gets credit for bringing the force pop nm concept into what it is now. Plain and simple, when you think force pop nm's you think CoP, or the mobs that were changed in the wake of the great success! of CoP's pop mobs, and encouraging them to set up ZNM to not rely on camping some bullshit nm to start they cycle.

ToAU gets an immense amount of credit, nobody's discrediting ToAU in the least, I'm simply saying that because ToAU signet is better does not mean the camps are massively better.

If they'd give us sanction style exp bonus on signet areas, ToAU would be the 2nd choice for the best parties, as URange mobs give slightly better exp than trolls or mamools, while having way the fuck less hp than trolls and less retarded tp moves (admittedly, doom is quite retarded for exp mobs, but not tough to avoid/deal with if you're prepared.)

In that case, you're right; when you discard all the improvements of other expansions, or inaccurately attribute them to CoP instead, CoP is the best expansion!


Last week of CoP: "merits aren't that important, barely anyone has LV75 anywayz"
First week of TAU: "OMFG these merit camps are so amazing WTFFFFF"

Who said anything about the last week of CoP before ToAU? The ENTIRE discussion when I've said specific time frames it's been "when CoP came out."

I believe your story has a bit of a hole in it.

You're right, if you're fucking retarded I can see how you'd make that jump. I mean, clearly, Vrtra sat around for months at a time untouched the last week of CoP.

At the end of the day, CoP camps were no better than RoZ camps. Uletab and KRT existed for the specialists, front weapons and Nexus were there for anyone who wanted them, Lufaise was a nice option for RNG/THF/DRG. (I will kindly ignore your suggestion of exping on mobs that have 2 pops total or that spawn for 1/4 of the day.)

URange didn't require specialists, by any means, although it was unquestionable the best for the best players. KRT was MNK + aquarian jobs onry. No other job had any business being down there. Weapons were ALWAYS taken. The only time you could get a maximizing pt on weapons pretty much was like 9-10 am when almost nobody was on, because pre-cop it was also the best non-merit leveling spot once KTunnel and Ro'Moave slowed down around 71. CoP not only gave better spots for merits, it also opened sky up and made sky better than it had ever been for exp by getting people to go to Bibiki and URange.

Lastly, fomor at night, birds and rams during day.

Whether or not the gear is "worth it" is beside the point.

The point is that you claim that failed philosophies of CoP would be welcomed and embraced (in fact, considered "perfect") today. They clearly would not.

You're claiming that redoing a 5 year old mission that EVERYONE has done sucks ONLY because there's a level cap involved, and no other reason whatsoever, and that somehow clearly means level caps are entirely unacceptable and evil.

Totally reasonable claims, really makes me feel good about taking this time to debate with someone so truly thoughtful and worthwhile.

P.S.

Wrong.

Decorative Weapons are LV79-81. There are 24 of them in the front rooms of Ru'Avitau. 16min respawn, 84-112xp/kill (98 average). Presuming that you kill every mob in the longest possible timeframe for infinite chain (60sec), you are looking at 24 minutes for 24 kills, receiving (98+117+122+127+137)+(147*19) = 3394 xp/cycle (with 8 of them being respawned at the end).

Because perfectly killing every mob at EXACTLY 60 seconds is totally reasonable.

It also wasn't totally noticeable that certain mobs tended to spawn higher in their level range and others lower, with weapons leaning towards the low end (much like puks, urange eyes, and molechs), while demons and golems tended towards the high end of their range.

That puts you at ~8k/hr if you are lazy and do nothing but run to one end, chain them as slowly as you can, wash rinse repeat. If your puller is good enough to plan the kill order, allowing for infinite (slow) chain, that's 8.6k/hr. If you can also time kills so that you aren't letting 8 repop untouched (note: this takes actual skill), you're looking at ~40sec/kill, which sets the upper limit for front weapons at roughly 13k/hr.

It's a good thing the best jobs in the game at the time (mnk, asuran; rng, sidewinder; war, rampage; nin, jin) didn't have wildly unpredictable WS or anything.

It was totally reasonable to time every single kill at exactly 40 seconds when pulling from 2 hugeass rooms with everyone spamming multi-hit, crit, inaccurate, or combinations of the 3 WS. Especially since the mobs didn't have an aoe stun or anything like that.

Within reason, you couldn't do over 6k/hr consistently up there by trying to maintain perfect chains.

edit: Fourth option: run to one end, kill all of them in 16min (or less if you've got it like that), run back to start, wait until 20min mark for some kill leeway, wash rinse repeat. 10k/hour, no skill required.

If you got the perfect spawn levels and never lost a chain under any circumstances during the clears, you'd be around 9k doing that, but very rarely would it work out that way.

Most likely, you'd average ~105 exp a kill, and clear 3, 3.5 if you're super decked times per hour for around 8k.

And, in the end, if you want to compare mathematical maximums, the fact is it's flat out not even close to URange's. There are literally more mobs if killed quickly upon spawn on the very top half of the top camp in URange, and they give dramatically better average exp.


What you've really spent all your time proving here, is that ToAU's popular exp camps were directly based around concepts from zilart (t-low vt 1-2 type mob spam), improved with concepts from CoP's camps (masses of merit mobs in an outdoor scenario).

Not only that, but ToAU's mathematically best camps are literally direct copies of URange, in that they offer higher exp mobs with lower ones thrown in, and therefore the best potential possible, but they have sanction bonus tossed in.

Again, you're the one pointing out the pure math, look at the mobs in URange compared to the best mobs in ToAU, with a sanction bonus URange would be the superior camp.


Also, in days when dual sniper's and flame rings were an accomplishment, and spectacles were freaking amazing, sushi changed everything. Easily as big an improvement in overall exp gaining ability from 30-merits at that point as sanction. It still takes now what was then the best gear in the game by a long shot (and rare as fuck) for meat to compete with sushi for dual wield jobs.

[Spider-Dan]

In Zilart the idea was still coming about. The expiremented with the methods for obtaining, (Curtana/Hoto/Cmits style, olla/hornetneedle) CoP brought us a multitude of pop nm's that actually dropped good shit, and the success in CoP convinced them to use the system to fix Ulli.

So if I understand you correctly:

A year after the CoP team gives up the microphone to the TAU team, the devs used a farm/pop system that originated in RoZ to fix RoZ NMs. And for this, CoP gets the credit. OK.

Keep telling yourself ENM were "carbon-copy smash-and-grab," and that any other than boneyard have excessively lame quests to activate.

I was actually thinking of Uletab, which is about a zillion times worse than Attohwa if done "straight up" (and based on the randomness of the devs, it is entirely plausible that they could arbitrarily label tractoring up the ledge as an "exploit" and start another round of LM-17).

You're right, it's definitely not an event you can repeat based on time with objectives different from anything we saw before, which offers substantial reward without excessive time or dedication.

What's the objective of Totentanz? Kill the stuff you see inside.
What's the objective of Requiem of Sin? Kill the stuff you see inside.
What's the objective of Holy Cow? Kill the stuff you see inside.

Yes, that's drastically different from, say, Horns of War, or Copycat, or Under Observation, or Jungle Boogeymen, where the objective is to "kill the stuff you see inside".

Do some BCs have interesting twists on "kill the stuff you see inside," like "kill the stuff inside in a certain order," or "kill the stuff inside in 60 seconds before it blows up," or "pick one of the things you see inside and just kill that," or even "pick the right enemy and you may not have to kill anything at all"? Sure. But as you may have guessed by this point, CoP did not invent these new and interesting ways to kill things in BCs; RoZ had already done it years before.

What? CoP gets credit for bringing the force pop nm concept into what it is now. Plain and simple, when you think force pop nm's you think CoP, or the mobs that were changed in the wake of the great success! of CoP's pop mobs, and encouraging them to set up ZNM to not rely on camping some bullshit nm to start they cycle.

Yes, when I think of Sozu Rogberry, Pallas, Alkyoneus, and Ullikummi, the FIRST thing that comes to mind is "CoP!" Not the expansion that was current when those changes were made (TAU), nor the game that they actually come from... no, no. Everyone thinks of CoP.

If they'd give us sanction style exp bonus on signet areas, ToAU would be the 2nd choice for the best parties, as URange mobs give slightly better exp than trolls or mamools, while having way the fuck less hp than trolls and less retarded tp moves (admittedly, doom is quite retarded for exp mobs, but not tough to avoid/deal with if you're prepared.)

Yes, and the half-hour hike through truesight aggro is a total non-factor, right? Give me a break.

Signet could have exp bonus tomorrow and the top three camps would still be birds, north MJSP, nyzul mamool.

You're claiming that redoing a 5 year old mission that EVERYONE has done sucks ONLY because there's a level cap involved, and no other reason whatsoever, and that somehow clearly means level caps are entirely unacceptable and evil.

No one gives a f*ck about having to visit zones that they are already familiar with! If this were the case, people would have been complaining just as loudly about Fei'Yin! The ONLY difference between "visiting old area that you visited 5 years ago" and "visiting other old area that you visited 5 years ago" is that ONE OF THEM HAS A LEVEL CAP ADDED. And coincidentally, that's the one that people complain about! Do the f'ing math.

Because perfectly killing every mob at EXACTLY 60 seconds is totally reasonable.

It's a good thing the best jobs in the game at the time (mnk, asuran; rng, sidewinder; war, rampage; nin, jin) didn't have wildly unpredictable WS or anything.

It was totally reasonable to time every single kill at exactly 40 seconds when pulling from 2 hugeass rooms with everyone spamming multi-hit, crit, inaccurate, or combinations of the 3 WS. Especially since the mobs didn't have an aoe stun or anything like that.

Within reason, you couldn't do over 6k/hr consistently up there by trying to maintain perfect chains.

You claimed that the reason that front weapons suck is because there aren't enough mobs. If you do nothing more than start at one end and kill them all as fast as possible, intentionally lose chain, and run back to the start, you get 9-10k/hr, which would have been considered elite exp rate pre-TAU. This is with no special effort or timing involved; simply kill everything as fast as you can. Therefore, your claim that CoP was "a drastic improvement" in exp is unfounded.

It also wasn't totally noticeable that certain mobs tended to spawn higher in their level range and others lower, with weapons leaning towards the low end (much like puks, urange eyes, and molechs), while demons and golems tended towards the high end of their range.

And I say that front weapons "tend" to spawn higher while Uletab demons "tend" to spawn lower. See how easy it is when you just get to make up facts?

[Plow]

So if I understand you correctly:

A year after the CoP team gives up the microphone to the TAU team, the devs used a farm/pop system that originated in RoZ to fix RoZ NMs. And for this, CoP gets the credit. OK.

CoP gets the credit for experimenting with the system from the bullshit that was sky during its prime, and getting the developers thinking of ways to give us nm's with great gear that didn't involve camping in any way, shape, or form.

They did it wrong in Sea, they did it great in the world pop nm's. Guess which parts of the systems are featured in ToAU?

In case you legitimately haven't figured it out yet, ToAU was built as a party expansion, not an alliance expansion, just like CoP. ZNM is its sky/sea. Salvage, Nyzul, and Assault are its experiments, and just like CoP, it succeeded hugely in some ways, and failed massively in others.

I mean, honestly, you'd rather sit there literally unable to do anything at all productive waiting to lot on something that will finally give you one tiny portion of your job than be in a level cap? Really?

And fuck, the way you cry about true sight, I'd pay to see the look on your face when you get a "don't aggro gears" floor.

I was actually thinking of Uletab, which is about a zillion times worse than Attohwa if done "straight up" (and based on the randomness of the devs, it is entirely plausible that they could arbitrarily label tractoring up the ledge as an "exploit" and start another round of LM-17).

URange one sucks if you happen to be going for that specific one, and happen to suck at lining up with people. If either of those cases are not true, it's not bad at all.

If you're that fucking retarded with aggro that getting to the top is difficult, I dunno what to tell you.

What's the objective of Totentanz? Kill the stuff you see inside.
What's the objective of Requiem of Sin? Kill the stuff you see inside.
What's the objective of Holy Cow? Kill the stuff you see inside.

Yes, that's drastically different from, say, Horns of War, or Copycat, or Under Observation, or Jungle Boogeymen, where the objective is to "kill the stuff you see inside".

Wait, you mean the general objective in an MMO is to kill stuff? Oh, wait, you're the guy that's against the philosophy of killing monsters in mmo's.

Probably the most creative BCNM was the coffers prior to CoP. Everything else was "here's a mob with a tough move, kill it," or "here's a mob and 5 mini versions, kill them," or "here's 4 of a mob, kill them." Not to mention, they were heavily limited by beastman's seals. Extremely little outside of sky farming and exp involved killing mobs that actually dropped seals back then.

Do some BCs have interesting twists on "kill the stuff you see inside," like "kill the stuff inside in a certain order," or "kill the stuff inside in 60 seconds before it blows up," or "pick one of the things you see inside and just kill that," or even "pick the right enemy and you may not have to kill anything at all"? Sure. But as you may have guessed by this point, CoP did not invent these new and interesting ways to kill things in BCs; RoZ had already done it years before.

Where exactly was the NM that had 3 mini versions of itself, each one blocking a different kind of attack, while putting you in an infinite yo-yo and forcing you to actually figure out relative ranges on the fly?

Where was the NM that disappeared and had to be refound, while potentially finding the wrong mobs on accident?

Where was the solo match against a mob's pet clone of you with incredibly useful r/ex rewards?

Etc., enm took BCNM's, which up to that point were very simple monster fights placed in a BC, and began the process of developing new and original challenges.

Hell, you didn't get anything you couldn't literally recreate in the rest of the world until ENM.

Yes, when I think of Sozu Rogberry, Pallas, Alkyoneus, and Ullikummi, the FIRST thing that comes to mind is "CoP!" Not the expansion that was current when those changes were made (TAU), nor the game that they actually come from... no, no. Everyone thinks of CoP.

Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to someone that started playing in 2007. I hate to break it to you, but when people who aren't trying to make a bullshit argument think "pop nm," they don't think of NM's that were changed to a pop method years into the game. We think of the 2 boots, the absurdly amazing necks, the swift belt, soboro, tatami, etc., etc.

But I suppose 2 pairs of situational gloves valued at 50k and 500k respectively, and the 2 biggest pain in the ass camping non-pop NM's in the fucking history of ffxi fit the bill perfectly in their stead.

Yes, and the half-hour hike through truesight aggro is a total non-factor, right? Give me a break.

Your retardation is no longer an excuse, period. Shut the fuck up about a "half hour hike" through a 5 minute wide zone that takes 10 with time to s/i/notberetarded.

Signet could have exp bonus tomorrow and the top three camps would still be birds, north MJSP, nyzul mamool.

No, mathematically, it flat out would not, period. You're the one that wants to try to argue this specifically, so you go right on ahead and calculate.

No one gives a f*ck about having to visit zones that they are already familiar with! If this were the case, people would have been complaining just as loudly about Fei'Yin! The ONLY difference between "visiting old area that you visited 5 years ago" and "visiting other old area that you visited 5 years ago" is that ONE OF THEM HAS A LEVEL CAP ADDED. And coincidentally, that's the one that people complain about! Do the f'ing math.

There's nothing to argue when you're convinced that the only thing you didn't like is the only thing anyone didn't like.

Running to fei'yin every fucking day sucks my fat hairy balls, I do it every day and it sucks and it's retarded. Happy? Now you can't say you've never seen the complaints.

Where, pray tell, are the complaints about the vast majority of bcnm's being level capped for the entirety of the game?

You claimed that the reason that front weapons suck is because there aren't enough mobs. If you do nothing more than start at one end and kill them all as fast as possible, intentionally lose chain, and run back to the start, you get 9-10k/hr, which would have been considered elite exp rate pre-TAU. This is with no special effort or timing involved; simply kill everything as fast as you can. Therefore, your claim that CoP was "a drastic improvement" in exp is unfounded.

The fact is URange is better. Period. You can bullshit about just how super duper awesome dweaps really were, it doesn't mean jack shit when you actually think for 2 seconds about the argument you're trying to make.

And I say that front weapons "tend" to spawn higher while Uletab demons "tend" to spawn lower. See how easy it is when you just get to make up facts?

lol @ you accusing me of making up facts. Are you even aware of the fact that statues can spawn T? It's about 1 in 40, but they can most definitely spawn that low.

Come to your own conclusions, I'm too lazy to go around to different camps testing, but check your average exp per kill against what it should be according to going by the median level of the mobs, I'm quite certain you'll find it's consistently higher and lower (one or the other specifically) on most mob types.

Or, you know, just ask any BST or SMN you've ever known.

Anyway, by all means, carry on crying about how the level caps are the problem and then bitching about URange being too hard, etc., it's really rather amusing to watch you vent the massive level of frustration you have over having to stop and fight now and then.

[Spider-Dan]

CoP gets the credit for experimenting with the system from the bullshit that was sky during its prime, and getting the developers thinking of ways to give us nm's with great gear that didn't involve camping in any way, shape, or form.

Which, of course, they did jack-all with when they were in control.

CoP team hands over the reigns, game immediately takes drastic and sustained leaps forward over the next 2 years. Coincidence? Apparently.

And fuck, the way you cry about true sight, I'd pay to see the look on your face when you get a "don't aggro gears" floor.

Are you still unable to comprehend the difference between "participating in an event" and "being hijacked while being handcuffed on the way to an event"? I thought I made the distinction fairly clear.

Wait, you mean the general objective in an MMO is to kill stuff? Oh, wait, you're the guy that's against the philosophy of killing monsters in mmo's.

You continually want to pat CoP on the back for finding 38764328 different ways to say "kill all enemy," yet when contrasted to an event that has actual, distinct objective-based goals that are NOT based upon making a mob's lifebar empty, you cannot dismiss said event fast enough.

Some consistency, please.

Not to mention, they were heavily limited by beastman's seals. Extremely little outside of sky farming and exp involved killing mobs that actually dropped seals back then.

Quick, what is the one activity in this game that consumes more time than any other?

You, the person that lavishes praise upon the concept of killing mobs to obtain rare items for purposes of spawning a mob that drops items, should be doing nothing but shouting loud hosannahs for the entire concept of BCNM and KSNM. It does exactly what you stand for! Maybe you just need to think of a way for crediting CoP for inventing it, first...

Where exactly was the NM that had 3 mini versions of itself, each one blocking a different kind of attack, while putting you in an infinite yo-yo and forcing you to actually figure out relative ranges on the fly?

Where was the NM that disappeared and had to be refound, while potentially finding the wrong mobs on accident?

Where was the solo match against a mob's pet clone of you with incredibly useful r/ex rewards?

You mean the BC where you kill the stuff inside, the BC where you kill the stuff inside, and the BC where you kill the stuff inside? Revolutionary game design, there.

Sorry, I didn't realize I was talking to someone that started playing in 2007. I hate to break it to you, but when people who aren't trying to make a bullshit argument think "pop nm," they don't think of NM's that were changed to a pop method years into the game.

No, they think of f*cking SKY GODS. But you already disqualified sky gods because they changed ONE SKY TRIGGER NM to the SAME SYSTEM used to pop ANOTHER ALREADY EXISTING SKY TRIGGER NM. Which means the entirety of sky is just a big ripoff of CoP. Or something.

No, mathematically, it flat out would not, period. You're the one that wants to try to argue this specifically, so you go right on ahead and calculate.

Fine. Where do I plug in the part for "wivres use berserk, colibri hit like wimps and take 25% more damage from any merit DD not named DRK or MNK"?

lol @ you accusing me of making up facts. Are you even aware of the fact that statues can spawn T? It's about 1 in 40, but they can most definitely spawn that low.

Come to your own conclusions, I'm too lazy to go around to different camps testing, but check your average exp per kill against what it should be according to going by the median level of the mobs, I'm quite certain you'll find it's consistently higher and lower (one or the other specifically) on most mob types.

Or, you know, just ask any BST or SMN you've ever known.

Or, you know, I'll just try looking in the parsed logs that I already have from exping in the front of Ru'Avitau! Sounds good.

LV74 party on decoweapons. They are 79-81, so I expect (98+112+126)/3 = 112 mean (ahem) base xp.

c0 - 112xp
c1 - 134xp
c2 - 140xp
c3 - 145xp
c4 - 156xp
c5 - 168xp
expected average for one chain 5 set: 142.5xp/kill

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/decoweap-exp.jpg
In case you're wondering, the average for one chain5 set there was 142.17xp/kill.

But let me guess... my sample size is "not big enough" to disprove the statement that you invented out of thin air?

[Plow]

Which, of course, they did jack-all with when they were in control.

CoP team hands over the reigns, game immediately takes drastic and sustained leaps forward over the next 2 years. Coincidence? Apparently.

Because the list of shit I already mentioned from poppable nm's amounts to "jack-all."

Definitely not some of the most useful items in the game which are still readily available, but challenging no matter what level you are.

And, it is absolutely entirely your opinion that what the CoP team was actually responsible for has "moved forward" since. Games advance, and systems improve, but it's very much a personal opinion on if we've "moved forward" from having the game be built around the story to having the story fit into the game where it can.

That's a fundamental difference of opinions, and that's the root of it.

Are you still unable to comprehend the difference between "participating in an event" and "being hijacked while being handcuffed on the way to an event"? I thought I made the distinction fairly clear.

Are you really unable to comprehend that lufaise etc was "on the way to an event" and the level capped zones for the missions ARE a part of the event?

Like I said, you're looking at it through a jaded lens after sitting in AU for a couple years teleporting instantly to bc's. If that's your thing, so be it, some of us actually enjoy participating in the world of the mmo's we play.

You continually want to pat CoP on the back for finding 38764328 different ways to say "kill all enemy," yet when contrasted to an event that has actual, distinct objective-based goals that are NOT based upon making a mob's lifebar empty, you cannot dismiss said event fast enough.

First off, not a single one of the specific enm's I listed is "kill all enemy." In fact, in 2 of them, if you try to kill all enemies, you're going to be struggling for time and killing aimlessly, in the other, just fucking lol if you try to kill the gob.

Secondly, you're right. I don't play FFXI for mgs'ing in scenarios where fighting is not a key part, especially when they involve no form of story beyond "I'm lost, halp!"

Some consistency, please.

Again, tell me about it.

Quick, what is the one activity in this game that consumes more time than any other?

Depends entirely on what you choose. Feel free to claim that it's exp no matter what, watching you make a fool out of yourself is pretty entertaining.

For me, personally, in those days it was farming by miles and miles and miles. It took a looooooooong fucking time to get a haub, sniper's, etc without some great luck back then.

You, the person that lavishes praise upon the concept of killing mobs to obtain rare items for purposes of spawning a mob that drops items, should be doing nothing but shouting loud hosannahs for the entire concept of BCNM and KSNM. It does exactly what you stand for! Maybe you just need to think of a way for crediting CoP for inventing it, first...

BCNM are fantastic, one of the best parts of the game easily. Also, they're level capped.

You mean the BC where you kill the stuff inside, the BC where you kill the stuff inside, and the BC where you kill the stuff inside? Revolutionary game design, there.

Yeah, fuck, it would be so much more entertaining to click on lamps. That's way more creative than original fight mechanics, too. I mean, Nyzul altogether, and Salvage, 2 of the most popular parts of the game now, they definitely don't remind me of any other expansions at all.

No, they think of f*cking SKY GODS. But you already disqualified sky gods because they changed ONE SKY TRIGGER NM to the SAME SYSTEM used to pop ANOTHER ALREADY EXISTING SKY TRIGGER NM. Which means the entirety of sky is just a big ripoff of CoP. Or something.

Sky = camping. This is not complex, and changing the worst ones into non-camp does not make it not involve camping.

Fine. Where do I plug in the part for "wivres use berserk, colibri hit like wimps and take 25% more damage from any merit DD not named DRK or MNK"?

Plug it up there right next to your head, imo. You're really going to argue that colbri are the best exp camp there is? Really? I'd love to see that argument, because the math (and common sense) says no. And yeah, wivre's are freakin awesome exp targets...

Also, I like how you keep throwing in things that just make you look stupid. I mean, yeah, SAM and WAR with polearm are totally going to do 25% more damage than they would with Gaxe/GKT. Which is why both are rocking polearms everywhere now anyway, since they're the exact same damage baseline and penta is amazing for them on higher evas mobs. Also nins are totally worth having for colibri.

Or, you know, I'll just try looking in the parsed logs that I already have from exping in the front of Ru'Avitau! Sounds good.

k

LV74 party on decoweapons. They are 79-81, so I expect (98+112+126)/3 = 112 mean (ahem) base xp.

In both situations it's also the median, I wasn't looking closely at your math and assumed since it was a 3 level gap you were just using the middle level as the baseline.

c0 - 112xp
c1 - 134xp
c2 - 140xp
c3 - 145xp
c4 - 156xp
c5 - 168xp
expected average for one chain 5 set: 142.5xp/kill

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/decoweap-exp.jpg
In case you're wondering, the average for one chain5 set there was 142.17xp/kill.

But let me guess... my sample size is "not big enough" to disprove the statement that you invented out of thin air?

Your having an example of a pt with good luck doesn't say a lot really, no, but I'll concede that my statement that different mobs tend to spawn closer to one end of their level range than others is entirely from "eyeball" experience.

[astrael]

You know what would make great DNC-specific daggers? Enmity+ daggers, Augmented Step effects (ie, increase the defense/evasion/magic resist down effect of each Level, either done individually or all Steps), Light Staff-like dagger, Subtle Blow+, "Conserve TP", and maybe even a dagger with Added Effect: Slow. How about a "Double Step" trait on the weapon that occassionally sets the recast timer to 0 for the JA used. S-E can do whatever they want if it's DNC JSE.

But I hate to break it to you, if you are relying on a blau dolch or multi-hit dagger addition to "fix" DNC then you are doing it wrong.

[Plow]

DNC with a multi-hit dagger would be godlike in a lot of the most popular (currently) parts of the game.

[Antithesis]

ToAU did everything as close to fantastic as possible compared to the other expansions. Although the missions were a step down from CoP they were still very impressive post-Ovjang rescue fight. Beyond the missions, ToAU basically gave us everything we do now. Merit parties? In ToAU. Main crafting cities? Whitegate. The hub to basically all the best events in the game? Whitegate. New event where you could get previous expansion gear plus some new gear? Einherjar.

Basically, most of everything that we do now is in ToAU. I honestly feel a bit sad to think that while ToAU continues to floursh even after WoTG, all of the original areas are as ignored as ever. FoV was the first step in getting people back to the original areas but SE needs to pick it up if they want us getting out of Colibri / Mamool camps. Hell, I don't even think people EXP on trolls anymore and it has just become those two camps exclusively.

Also:

I approve of the story, but running from 15 minute CS to 15 minute CS makes me feel like I'm playing Xenosaga again.

; ; I liked Xenosaga.

[Spider-Dan]

Because the list of shit I already mentioned from poppable nm's amounts to "jack-all."

You claim that CoP deserves credit for fixing the broken NMs.
The CoP team did nothing to fix said mobs when they were in control.
2 + 2 = orange?

Are you really unable to comprehend that lufaise etc was "on the way to an event" and the level capped zones for the missions ARE a part of the event?

Like I said, you're looking at it through a jaded lens after sitting in AU for a couple years teleporting instantly to bc's.

Don't forget the "jaded lens" of, you know, every city mission, and every Zilart mission.

I understand that the level-capping zones are interpreted as "part of the challenge." What I am saying that it's a banal, tedious challenge that does not test any skills I consider worth testing in an online MMORPG. The problem is not that it's a challenge; the problem is that it's a lazy, poorly designed one.

And I'm glad that they've realized that it's an idiotic solution and have almost entirely discarded the idea.

BCNM are fantastic, one of the best parts of the game easily. Also, they're level capped.

Again, where did you see me complain about level-capped BCs? I don't have a problem with those.

Yeah, fuck, it would be so much more entertaining to click on lamps. That's way more creative than original fight mechanics, too.

Wait, are we now judging things on whether they are actually good, instead of just unique? I thought the point was just that CoP was more unique than the rest, which made it better.

Sky = camping. This is not complex, and changing the worst ones into non-camp does not make it not involve camping.

So because 3/8 of the trigger items in sky are campable, "sky = camping." OK.

Plug it up there right next to your head, imo. You're really going to argue that colbri are the best exp camp there is? Really? I'd love to see that argument, because the math (and common sense) says no.

Certainly.

Colibri themselves are squishy, weak, have some of the mildest WS in the game, and mathematically average higher spawn (81-82) than Uletab Demons (79-83).

Wivres average higher spawn (78-83) than both Smolenkos (79-80) and Molech (78-81). They use a WS that greatly increases their damage taken, as opposed to, say, Doom or AoE petrify. The one serious WS they have (Debilitating Roar) is easily negated by smart healers with TParty.

Neither colibri nor wivres cast -ga, have pets, use AoE Paralyze, or have a WS that can easily oneshot 'zerked DDs (e.g. Fang Rush). Neither of them use single-target nukes that Third Eye won't protect you from. Oh, and there aren't any T mobs that use Flashga mixed in.

Bonus points: COR is required for top tier exp, and COR deals more damage on colibri+wivres than anywhere else.

Also, I like how you keep throwing in things that just make you look stupid. I mean, yeah, SAM and WAR with polearm are totally going to do 25% more damage than they would with Gaxe/GKT.

They'll still deal more damage at that camp with polearm than they will at any other camp with anything else. Which is, you know, the point.

[Plow]

You claim that CoP deserves credit for fixing the broken NMs.
The CoP team did nothing to fix said mobs when they were in control.
2 + 2 = orange?

I never made that claim. You're just going to make shit up to try to make the argument fit your beliefs now I take it?

The CoP team deserves credit for bringing the system to the forefront and giving us *really* fucking good rewards with no camping involved. If not for the massive level of success with the CoP pop NM's, it's unlikely they'd have continued in that direction for ZNM.

They core guys, regardless of which expansion, REALLY fucking like their endgame events to involve camping, if you haven't noticed.

Don't forget the "jaded lens" of, you know, every city mission, and every Zilart mission.

Because we were all 75 and merited for city missions and ZM's... they definitely weren't right on par in terms of pain-in-the-ass-ness at the levels we did them or anything...

Definitely no true sight mobs in the way of any city missions or zm's rofl...

I understand that the level-capping zones are interpreted as "part of the challenge." What I am saying that it's a banal, tedious challenge that does not test any skills I consider worth testing in an online MMORPG. The problem is not that it's a challenge; the problem is that it's a lazy, poorly designed one.

Honestly, why the fuck didn't you quit after rank 3 missions, let alone 4 or 5?

Dungeon crawling is not a "lazy, poorly designed" challenge, it is a staple of great mmo's.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe they didn't want people to go in with their level 75's and carry through a bunch of level 30's without any exploration or challenge?

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess those high levels being able to carry you through were exactly why you didn't quit after the early missions.

Bet with myself: you started on ps2 or xbox release didn't you?

And I'm glad that they've realized that it's an idiotic solution and have almost entirely discarded the idea.

They're still setting up the exact same scenarios everywhere, except now since everyone has 75 jobs, it's all designed to be done at 75.

Keep telling yourself getting to Khim is as easy as getting to Jorm, Vrtra, Timmy, or even any CoP mission prior to the uncapped ones in sea.

Again, where did you see me complain about level-capped BCs? I don't have a problem with those.

So, the problem with level capped areas is that they're level capped, but being level capped isn't inherently a problem?

What? Make up your mind.

If the only thing that makes the Delkfutt mission suck is the level cap, and that's the only reason people are complaining about it, then all level capped events must suck, what exactly am I missing here?

You said:

The ONLY difference between "visiting old area that you visited 5 years ago" and "visiting other old area that you visited 5 years ago" is that ONE OF THEM HAS A LEVEL CAP ADDED.

So, yeah, make up your mind.

Wait, are we now judging things on whether they are actually good, instead of just unique? I thought the point was just that CoP was more unique than the rest, which made it better.

Where the fuck did you ever get that idea? I certainly never said anything of the sort.

So because 3/8 of the trigger items in sky are campable, "sky = camping." OK.

So because 3/8 of the trigger nm's are (now) poppable, well, really 2, curtana is still essentially camping and competitive, "sky=pop nm's." OK.

Certainly.

Colibri themselves are squishy, weak, have some of the mildest WS in the game, and mathematically average higher spawn (81-82) than Uletab Demons (79-83).

This = easiest camp, not best. And the kindred are lower near the entrance to their spawn area than up the last ramp.

Wivres average higher spawn (78-83) than both Smolenkos (79-80) and Molech (78-81). They use a WS that greatly increases their damage taken, as opposed to, say, Doom or AoE petrify. The one serious WS they have (Debilitating Roar) is easily negated by smart healers with TParty.

I'm not sure how tparty helps with an attack down debuff, but whatever you say. They also attack fast, require special positioning, have naturally high hp/def, and have an aoe knockback.

Neither colibri nor wivres cast -ga, have pets, use AoE Paralyze, or have a WS that can easily oneshot 'zerked DDs (e.g. Fang Rush). Neither of them use single-target nukes that Third Eye won't protect you from. Oh, and there aren't any T mobs that use Flashga mixed in.

T mobs mixed into higher mobs are a good thing, they allow you to chain the best exp the fastest and maintain your chains during brief relaxing periods easily. That's what Molechs and Eyes are were used for, that's what puks and pets are used for by the best exp parties currently.

Bonus points: COR is required for top tier exp, and COR deals more damage on colibri+wivres than anywhere else.

COR do more damage in mire than anywhere else, think before you speak.

They'll still deal more damage at that camp with polearm than they will at any other camp with anything else. Which is, you know, the point.

Until it occurs to you that not only are you using a weapon with 30 lower acc and att with a lesser ws that depends on more hits...

You're doing it on mobs that prohibit good food.


Anyway, have fun deciding which arguments you realize you're wrong on but can't possibly admit and leaving them out, making up some ridiculous bullshit to claim is my argument so you can argue against something retarded, and being convinced that ToAU camps possibly being slightly better than CoP without sanction means "CoP's direct successor made the entirety of CoP exping look pointless and foolish by about day 3."

Cuz, you know, merits are the only part of exp in the game and all. Afk solo leveling my 24 sch in ToAU zones.

[Spider-Dan]

I never made that claim.

You said that the "success in CoP convinced them to use the system to fix Ulli," and that CoP deserved credit for the system (as opposed to the expansion that actually originated it, RoZ) because "sky was a campfest" which somehow means that it doesn't count, or something.

Because we were all 75 and merited for city missions and ZM's... they definitely weren't right on par in terms of pain-in-the-ass-ness at the levels we did them or anything...

Definitely no true sight mobs in the way of any city missions or zm's rofl...

The VERY FIRST NEW AREA you can enter for CoP missions is LITERALLY FULL of true-detect mobs. How many true-detect mobs exist throughout the entirety of city/ZM... like 5? 10? Yeah, apples to apples.

Dungeon crawling is not a "lazy, poorly designed" challenge, it is a staple of great mmo's.

Lazy, poorly designed dungeon crawling is lazy and poorly designed. Notice that I am singling out CoP, while strangely NOT complaining about the other expansions' missions.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe they didn't want people to go in with their level 75's and carry through a bunch of level 30's without any exploration or challenge?

If only there were some way to choose to adjust the content to the level of the participant... you know, an optional level-cap, or something. I wonder what kind of genius dev team could conceive of such a crazy idea?

Bet with myself: you started on ps2 or xbox release didn't you?

10/28/03. Does that mean I win this argument? Because my start date is oh-so-relevant to the discussion.

Keep telling yourself getting to Khim is as easy as getting to Jorm, Vrtra, Timmy, or even any CoP mission prior to the uncapped ones in sea.

Is getting to Khimaira a TAU mission?

No?

Then WTF is your point?

So, the problem with level capped areas is that they're level capped, but being level capped isn't inherently a problem?

[...]

If the only thing that makes the Delkfutt mission suck is the level cap, and that's the only reason people are complaining about it, then all level capped events must suck, what exactly am I missing here?

Already explained several times, but roadblocking the journey to the BC is a sh*tty, lazy substitute for actual content. This is why people detested CoP missions, yet had no real objections to level-capped BCs. Unless you have an alternate explanation?

So because 3/8 of the trigger nm's are (now) poppable, well, really 2, curtana is still essentially camping and competitive, "sky=pop nm's." OK.

Actually, I'd say it's because the NMs that people actually go to sky to kill (gods) are poppable. But what kind of crazy logic is that? Sky gods are considered "camping," just like Soboro is considered "killing a bunch of mobs for low-drop-rate item," right?

This = easiest camp, not best. And the kindred are lower near the entrance to their spawn area than up the last ramp.

Which you have exactly as much evidence for as your "decoweapons spawn low" claim. That is to say, none.

I don't have time to quote your obvious and systemic lack of understanding of how merit parties work point-by-point, so let me summarize it for you:

- weaker mobs require less healing, which means that RDM has more MP for Dia3 and COR spends less time giving Evoker's and more time DDing
- less dangerous mobs allow DDs to use more offensive SJs without risking death
- TParty is relevant to Debilitating Roar because healers know who to Erase first to maintain chain (this is why you have two erases on wivres)
- any time a wivre is attacking fast (i.e. haste), they are also berserked and taking ridiculous damage
- mixing in T mobs is incredibly dumb, since (particularly with puks) you kill them in ~80% of the time of a real mob for ~50% of the exp
- if you need T mobs to maintain chain for "brief relaxing periods," you f*cking suck and you need to give up the zone to a real party
- in 2009 (or even 2007), mire is not a real merit camp, and bringing it up as if you've proven a point makes you look, well, not informed

P.S. COR deals more damage on boyahda darters than in mire! See what I did there!

[Zilong]

Oh god, is Plow honestly arguing that colibri is a worse merit camp than uleguerand range?

[ronin sparthos]

ToAU did everything as close to fantastic as possible compared to the other expansions. Although the missions were a step down from CoP they were still very impressive post-Ovjang rescue fight. Beyond the missions, ToAU basically gave us everything we do now. Merit parties? In ToAU. Main crafting cities? Whitegate. The hub to basically all the best events in the game? Whitegate. New event where you could get previous expansion gear plus some new gear? Einherjar.

Basically, most of everything that we do now is in ToAU. I honestly feel a bit sad to think that while ToAU continues to floursh even after WoTG, all of the original areas are as ignored as ever. FoV was the first step in getting people back to the original areas but SE needs to pick it up if they want us getting out of Colibri / Mamool camps. Hell, I don't even think people EXP on trolls anymore and it has just become those two camps exclusively.

Also:



; ; I liked Xenosaga.

The problem is exactly in what you said above.

ToAU made some aspects of the game so easy that most players now have an almost unrealistic expectation of how certain aspects of the game are supposed to work in the future expansions. The ToAU to WoTG transition was so poor because SE felt they could go back to CoP era tactics when ToAU had already set this impossible to surpass standard. Do I blame players? Not really, SE yet again drove themselves into a wall.

There is no getting people out of Mamool/Colibri camps because SE in their infinite wisdom decided to create some of the easiest mobs in the game, pack them full of an EXP bonus that is nigh impossible to lose, put said mobs within 5mins of town, neglect any sense of balance and then release an expansion that goes two years backwards.

Unless SE somehow overhauls how EXP works, they'll need to create monsters that explode on contact and rain shiny bits of EXP gold in order to move people outta the current meripo camps and restore some sense of "balance" in that area of the game. Even within TOAU itself you currently have dead Troll, Qutrub, meleeburn Wamouracampa (lol) and Mamook camps.

Fields of Valor is a nice band-aid to the oldschool problem of slow soloing and slow parties but it really does nothing to make WOTG worthwhile (zonewise) and unless SE throws Ballista/Nyzul/Salvage style drinks into play, creates some kinda quick way to get to other camps and evens the playing field of EXP bonuses for parties MMJSP and Nyzul Thickets will be the only place anyone goes.

Will SE fix this? Not likely. They are too busy beating people up for getting "too much" EXP out of events like Campaign.

[Zilong]

Unless SE somehow overhauls how EXP works, they'll need to create monsters that explode on contact and rain shiny bits of EXP gold in order to move people outta the current meripo camps and restore some sense of "balance" in that area of the game. Even within TOAU itself you currently have dead Troll, Qutrub, meleeburn Wamouracampa (lol) and Mamook camps.

Well, Djinn was exactly that before they nerfed it :/

[ronin sparthos]

Well, Djinn was exactly that before they nerfed it :/

NERF THOSE DJINNS, WOTG CANNOT POSSIBLY YIELD ANYTHING USEFUL!