PLD/NIN

[mcb]

our tanks seem to have difficulty holding hate as PLD/NIN. i think voke as /war is a crutch for them but i don't know how to teach them to gain as much or more hate /nin. right now nin/drk is able to easly hold hate for the durration of any fight its been tested in. any tips i can pass along to the pld?

[eva00r]

First and foremost, read Kaeko's journal about enmity machanism that could be found here Kanican.

[Raen Ryong]

Self-cure III and self-cure IV. Atonement spam as applicable; idle in accuracy.

[Darlantan]

Looks like we are back at 2005!

Have them make different macros for Flash, Ni, Ichi, for eating hits, one to idle for atonement spam, and one when for some reason its not recomendable, and also one set to eat magical damage, at least. When they get used to swap between these sets they will get the most of every action, thus improving their performance greatly.

As Eva00r said, have them learn how hate works. Also, get as few hits as you can, obviously, and cure yourself (make cure cheat macros is recomended) and others. Just a Flash, Sentinel, Bash and a couple cures in the beginning of a fight will give them an edge. Poke and kindly tell them to suck less!

[Furionstormrage]

On the other side of this, make sure they have proper support.

Having a BRD in the tank PT helps tremendously, 2 BRDs makes it an absolute joke to tank anything.

Make sure your RDMs are Hasting and Refreshing them, and your WHM or /WHM are getting any important status effects off of them immediately.

Sometimes it's not always the tanks fault that they are having trouble, just making sure you're looking at every angle.

Beyond that, it's all about keeping Utsusemi and Flash recasts as low as possible, spamming Flash every 22 seconds, and curing. Atonement is a huge boost but if your PLDs are having that much trouble, let them learn the basics first.

[seiji]

say your whm to not bomb cure em as soon as they take dmg

[arshesney]

our tanks seem to have difficulty holding hate as PLD/NIN. i think voke as /war is a crutch for them but i don't know how to teach them to gain as much or more hate /nin. right now nin/drk is able to easly hold hate for the durration of any fight its been tested in. any tips i can pass along to the pld?

Provoke is completely worthless for holding hate, it is only a spike (and the enmity is gone when it is up again): spam flash, remember them they have sentinel/rampart, make them curing each other for hate.

[Furionstormrage]

Shield Bash is more VE than Rampart, assuming your Rampart can't hit every PT member.
(Had to mention, I rarely see people use Shield Bash, even Aegis PLDs ;

[Feedmenow]

I'm a participating member in this LS, and have PLD75 that I rarely use.

Looks like we are back at 2005!

Most of our strategies are from around that time, yes. Hopefully we can get up-to-date through this thread.

Have them make different macros for Flash, Ni, Ichi, for eating hits, one to idle for atonement spam, and one when for some reason its not recomendable, and also one set to eat magical damage, at least. When they get used to swap between these sets they will get the most of every action, thus improving their performance greatly

For one, most of our paladins don't have atonement. The ones that do don't go paladin, or rarely go anyways. Most avoid blinking gears if possible, which kinda complicates the issue. Would getting recast timers down as much as possible help more, or would the refresh from a ballad help more?

As far as my paladin goes, I'm getting close to finishing a Loquacious Earring, at which point I'll pursue having more specific gear for PLD tanking. What would be some inexpensive pieces for a cure cheat macro? I currently have BBQ ring and a ritter gorget, and if I'm investing in HP+ gear I could spring for some RSE2 hands and waist for enough to cover a cure III. What would be the next best steps to go towards a full C4, avoiding HP- if possible? Also, for confirmation, just how useful is DEF/VIT food and gear on gods and such? I'm imagining not much at all, but would like some assurance I'm not doing something retarded. The few times I've used PLD all the damn turtle gear and food didn't save me from getting Razor Fanged for 1k+. Using sushi and a haubergeon, or other DD gear, still seems really odd for tanking NMs, even though it realistically won't affect much.

Thanks for any help or advice, this issue's been bothering me for a bit, too. MCB's been making a mockery of the PLDs at tanking NMs and such on his NIN/DRK, which is kinda scary.

[arshesney]

Shield Bash is more VE than Rampart, assuming your Rampart can't hit every PT member.
(Had to mention, I rarely see people use Shield Bash, even Aegis PLDs ;

Oh yeah! Forgot about that. Shield Bash is about the same enmity as Provoke too!

[Taliesin]

Cure cheat macros.
Also, don't care about the blinking, tell your healers to learn to use <stpt> and/or <stal>.

Open the fight like this:
Get on hate list with a Banish, a sword swing, or any "low cost action".
Pop Sentinel, Flash, Cure IV, Cure IV and you're done.
Sentinel by itself generates enmity if you are already on hate list, and doubles the enmity generated during its duration. If one ability must be capped merit-wise, it's this one. Use it as soon as its timer and flash's one are up.

After that, it's all about MP management.

Your gear must be made of Haste (Homam, Swift/V. belt...) for Flash and Utsusemi, and must have a good chunk of accuracy for mobs that giving TP is not an issue (if your PLDs have Atonement - if they don't, make them work on it asap).
Macro-in as much enmity as possible for all Enmity-generative action (shield bash, Rampart, etc...)

Canceling Utsusemi (when 1 or 2 shadows have been used already) to recast 3 fresh shadows when the other tank has hate helps too.

One last thing, make them understand that Sentinel is more an Enmity tool than a damage reduction tool.

Check Belkin's LJ for some other tips (belkinator)

[Darlantan]

Lets not derail this into another to blink or not to blink thread, but seriously, they should. Not only its silly because of all the tools that let mages not lose their target (make sure your mages change their macros to <stal>, etc), but we are trying to make your PLDs able to hold hate, and making specific sets of gear for specific actions should help them a lot. If they still dont want to, at least use the appropiate swaps in the non-visible slots, you can make some noticiable changes just with your neck, rings, earrings, back and belt pieces.

To be honest, I dont abuse cure cheat macros, at all. There is usually someone to cure, but I figured I would advice it as another source of great hate management. As for how much support is needed to get some cure3/4 cure cheats rolling, refresh, parade gorget and auto-refresh is enough. If you are running out of mp with that its because you are curing others, which means you shouldnt be use cure-cheat macros, lol. A ballad, or two if you had two bards in the party, and also Ares's Cuirass, would make it terribly easy, but I never have a second bard, and the one I have gets to sing double march not often than not, nor Ares's Cuirass, and never run into mp problems. So not much support at all for that.

For examples of cure-cheat builds, and other PLD sets, I refer to this, and its previous threads:

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/75157...ead-title.html

You should find there what many great (and not so great) PLDs of all servers use.

Def/Vit food and gear are worthless, is what PLDs used to equip back when there werent any other equipment options and people hadnt figured out how little those do when facing a high level mob. I figure tacos and food of that kind are never a bad addition if your PLDs havent got Atonement, but sushi or marinara pizza, and less often, meat, will do much better for those that do have it.

If you have to turtle it up and blood tank stuff, you should be using Shield Skill, -% Damage taken and to a less extent, hp gear, period.

Hope it helps.

[Enedin]

Give them 2 BRDs and a RDM and they'll think they are awesome. After some time, let them repeat it with just a BRD.

[tonystigma]

Dude. Dorado Sushi. Acc and Enmity - it's even nice for Vorpal Blade, depending on what you're tanking.

[Mayareira]

Most common mistake I see people making is that they idle, TP in Enmity gear.

Enmity + equipment will do little to nothing during TP/atonement phase as the enmity you generate from melee swings aren't worthwhile. Idle in haste/accuracy instead. Have an enmity macro for JA's. Having an idle gear set is essential. It doesn't have to be expensive, AH pieces will just do fine.

Here are some gearset examples.

TP Phase

This set prioritizes haste and accuracy to get you enough TP as fast as possible

Joyeuse
Koenig/Terror Shield
Lamian Kaman
Walhara Turban
Peacock Charm/Chivalrius Chain/Fortitude Torque/Ancient Torque
Suppanomimi
Ethereal Earring/Hollow Earring/Assault Earring
Haubergeon +1/NQ/Avalon Breastplate
Dusk Gloves +1/NQ, Homam Manopolas
Accuracy Ring
Accuracy Ring
Cerberus Mantle
Swift/Speed Belt
Homam Cosciales
Homam Gambeiras/Dusk Boots

Utsusemi: Ichi:

This set prioritizes haste and shield skill to avoid interruption

Joyeuse
Koenig/Terror Shield
Lamian Kaman
Koenig/Kaiser Schaller
Shield Torque
Loquacious Earring
Buckler Earring
Nuevo Coselette with Fast Cast augment
Dusk Gloves +1/NQ, Homam Manopolas
Shadow Ring/Hercules' Ring/Sattva Ring/Defending Ring
Boxer's Mantle
Swift/Speed Belt
Homam Cosciales
Gallant Leggings +1/NQ

Flash Set

Prioritizes Haste, Fast Cast and Enmity

Joyeuse
Koenig/Terror Shield
Lamian Kaman
Walhara Turban
Ritter Gorget/Harmonia's Torque
Hades Earring/Loq. Earring
Nuevo Coselette with Fast Cast augment
Dusk Gloves +1/NQ, Homam Manopolas
Hercules'/Sattva/Mermaid's Ring
Cerberus Mantle
Swift/Speed Belt
Homam Cosciales
Homam Gambeiras/Dusk Boots

JA Set

Prioritizes Enmity

Joyeuse
Koenig/Terror Shield
Lamian Kaman
Bahamut's Mask/Iron Ram Sallet/Aegisjalmer/Hydra Salade
Ritter Gorget/Harmonia's Torque
Hades Earring
Neuevo Coselette with Enmity augment/Hydra Haubert/Avalon Breastplate/Valor Surcoat
Homam Manopolas/Iron Ram/Askar/Hydra Mouffles
Hercules'/Sattva/Mermaid's Ring
Cerberus Mantle
Trance Belt/Warwolf Belt
Iron Ram/Hydra Brayettes
Iron Ram/Hydra Solerettes

Magic Damage Taken minus

Prioritizes in lowering Magic Damage Taken, especially useful macro against Ixion and similar.

Iron Ram Lance
Lamian Kaman
Iron Ram Sallet
Ritter Gorget
Coral/Merman Earrings
Avalon Breastplate/Coral
Iron Ram Hands
Merman Rings
Lamia Mantle +1
Resolute Belt
Corals

Cure Cheat

There are many combinations you can make here, an example would be;

MP DOWN

Faerie Hairpin
Morgana's Chocker
Serket/Ether/Electrum Ring
Settler's Cape

Cure SET

Ritter Gorget
Cassie Earring
Bomb Queen Ring
Sattva Ring/Bloodbead Ring
Valor Cape/Cerberus Mantle/Gigant Mantle
Warwolf Belt/Trance Belt

Wrote this off my head, tried to list alternatives as much as I could. Probably missed bunch of stuff in the process but this should give you an idea. A solid TP set helps a lot with holding hate and a good Cure III/IV set is always good to have.

Its also entirely possible to adjust your gear sets to avoid blinking but with <stpt> and <stal>, that shouldn't be necessary. They are godsend. Sooner you adjust, better it is.

EDIT: *added Hydra Pieces, fixes Flash Set body/ear pieces.

[Darlantan]

Those are good gear sets examples. Just to be picky, I think you wrote "Suppanomimi, Ethereal Earring/Hollow Earring/Brutal Earring, Haubergeon +1/NQ" for Flash mistakenly, wanting to advice Hades Earrings/+1/Loq. Earring/ACP body (with Enm+5 Fastcast) instead. Also, if you are going to recomend Suppa, it is a better earring to tp in than Hollow Earring/Assault Earring.

[Mayareira]

Fixed that, thanks. I copy/pasted first set to use as a template for other sets and missed Neuvo/earrings.

[Feedmenow]

Yeah, I can whip up a DD gear setup real quick matching a few of those descriptions, let me work a bit with some FFXIAH.com profiles real quick.

Edit: TP setup right now would be:
- FFXIAH.com

Now I have some other builds:

Spoiler: show

MDB build- had this before this thread
- FFXIAH.com

JA/Atonement- Same as one above
- FFXIAH.com

PDT/turtling- meh build
- FFXIAH.com

Cure cheat precasting- honestly just screwing around with some of the gear at the moment
- FFXIAH.com

Actual cure setup-with that setup, I have 214 HP swapped for a +38 Enmity C3
- FFXIAH.com

[Mayareira]

^ Quite solid TP build. Cerberus Mantle/Valor Cape would be a good upgrade as it'll give you some flexibility for Cure Cheat (Settler/Valor/Gigant) and shadow recasts (Boxer's Mantle).

[Max™]

Shield Bash is more VE than Rampart, assuming your Rampart can't hit every PT member.
(Had to mention, I rarely see people use Shield Bash, even Aegis PLDs ;

This and a JA stun is why I was torn between meriting Bash and Rampart, with Flash, Cure cheats and Atonement, I don't need the JA's to cap hate out quickly. They're just like a Nitrous button on a turbocharged small block chevy, for when you REALLY wanna get the fuck to hate cap fast, or for some reason can't poke at shit with the joyeuse.

Still, Rampart is handy for some shit, and hitting the party with it for hate rocks.


Also: I did some math comparisons a while back in the what's better thread I think.

If you can get a C3 cheat in full +Enm pieces, versus a C4 cheat in limited +Enm, the C3 will be far better.

I was using Gigant and shit, but it wasn't swapping all the Enm so it was really a waste.

Now I'd say my ideal would be like this:

-Hp Hairpin
Neutral HP body (Haub)
-HP Back
-Hp Rings (Ether/Serket)
+Enm hands
+Enm feet

Assjammer (I.R. head)
Enm Nuevo (Valor, AF)
Valor mantle (Cerb)
Herc ring/Sattva (Herc/Mermaid)
Cure III

I C3 in +37/41 (Joy/Maca +1) Enm atm, while I could only C4 in something like +25 I think, and I get much more Enm/Mp with C3's than I could with C4's now.

I only do C4's under Sentinel.