North Korea 2nd Nuke Test

[MaachaQ]

I'm suddenly very glad that I had my passport renewed a couple weeks ago... My family would be ready to go pretty quickly should the situation here get worse, even my husband shouldn't have any trouble leaving since he still has a Green Card. My husband's family however... My parents have been e-mailing me every day since this stuff started again, trying to persuade us to make a trip back to the states...

And we also live in Seoul, so should anything actually go down, we'd be among the first to take a hit. We're literally a few bus stops away from the US military base here, not that it would make alot of difference as bombs lobbed over the border would be here maybe before they even had sirens blaring...

I have no doubt should the regime in North Korea finally fail, somehow, that South Koreans would flood the north with food and money to begin the rebuilding process. The biggest problem will be persuading all those people who have been brainwashed from birth to believe KIS and KJI are near-dinivity to accept modern reality.

edit: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31007296/

[Senoska]

Many of you are acting like North Korea wants nothing more than a war. They don't; it's suicide. They want to continue their nuclear program to avoid being opportunistically overthrown by the US or, maybe more importantly, being able to resist the increasing pressure from China to reform, something that would eventually weaken the regime's position. Their behaviour is sadly rational and just about the only chance for them to keep their political system. But the prospect of them using WMDs for anything but self-defense is grossly overstated. Which terrorist organizations or governments, incapapble of aquiring nukes by other means, would have enough resources to justify the huge risk for North Korea to engage in such trade? Of course, even a tiny chance is too high for comfort, but it's never going to justify killing millions of civilians or risking a nuclear attack on Seoul.

The best solution, at the moment, is to put China in an as good position as possible for putting pressure on North Korea. China has been very willing to cooperate and they definitely don't want WMDs in the hands of the regime. And if there has to be a conflict, it really would be best if China is the main actor in it; even if North Korea might take South Korea and Japan as hostages, an invasion by China would cause much more internal unrest and divisions than an attack by America, Japan or South Korea would. It would be very sad if America or Japan jumps the gun and blows the chance for this to be solved peacefully, out of paranoia and the usual disregard for other people's lives.

The problem is that they are saying ANY sanctions against them is an act of war which they will 'respond to as self defense'. Kind of funny that they think they are entitled to the aid they are getting

[Obev]

Not to mention that Japan would have them if they were allowed. They still aren't allowed to have a standing army from the treaty they signed at the end of WWII.

It's a clause in their constitution, not a treaty. Of course, Japan's post-war constitution was written in cooperation with the US occupation administration, so it's largely a matter of semantics.

As to whether they "would" have them if they "could," Article 9 of the Japanese constitution, which "forever renounce[s] war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes," has widespread support, the only amendments desired being ones which would allow the JSDF to undertake collective "self defence" operations such as UN peacekeeping.

Plus, Japan as America's "unsinkable aircraft carrier" has the US nuclear arsenal to protect it. That's well worth the annual tithe of Okinawan schoolgirl rape. Wait a minute...

[Kuya]

Ah, Okinawa, the Japanese Puerto Rico.

[Senoska]

Plus, Japan as America's "unsinkable aircraft carrier" has the US nuclear arsenal to protect it. That's well worth the annual tithe of Okinawan schoolgirl rape. Wait a minute...

Brb, joining the navy.

[Beckwin]

There is a big difference between the living situation in North Korea vs. Iraq and Afghanistan. If the government of North Korea were to be destroyed I can say with certainty that South Korea, Japan and China would pour billions, if not trillions of dollars into the infrastructure to make North Korea what east Germany is today. Also North Korea doesn't have thousands of km of boarders that house warlords and boarders on a hostile nation. The populace of North Korea is very much like the south, they were just unfortunate enough to be on the North side of the DMZ when the Korean War ended.

But as I said a few pages earlier, although the US could fight and win a conventional war with North Korea it is in nobodies interest to see this happen. It will be China that determines what the fate of North Korea will be as it is the only nation that is keeping North Korea alive - and China must decide eventually on its future.

Does anyone have a list of the troop count of the nations involved? I remember seeing one in Time or National Geographic a few years ago and it was quite disturbing.

Reunification is not something that SK wants thrust on them... there's sort of a dichotomy of feelings; they empathize with the plight of the people of North Korea, but on the other hand there would be monumental financial challenges to face with a full-on reunification. I think the ideal scenario for reunification would be a graduated one... first as a confederation of sorts, in which time infrastructure could be repaired and created, and necessary government/bureaucracy could be instituted along with allowing unrestricted trade between NK and SK; work visas would be required for residence though. Once NK achieves something in binocular-sight of structural parity, fully merge the two countries... this minimizes massive human migration impact, allows North Koreans to hold onto and improve their hometowns, and makes NK an attractive destination for work/business(other than just cheap labor manufacturing/farming, which would be the norm during the beginning of the confederation stage)/vacation for SKs too.

But yes, I agree with you about the influence of China and that the surrounding Asian countries would invest in a free NK.

[Rammses]

The problem is that they are saying ANY sanctions against them is an act of war which they will 'respond to as self defense'. Kind of funny that they think they are entitled to the aid they are getting

Directly threatening China is really the point of no return. It will lead to their demise in one way or another, and they know that perfectly well. If they're so stubborn that they'd rather go down than reform, it would at least do wonders for a potential coupe d'etat, and it would shatter the KPA's morale if an armed conflict were to take place. The North Korean people have memories; all the songs and portraits in the world aren't going to cover that up. And again, 90% of their energy is imported from China. A reverse fiat lux isn't exactly going to do Kim's divine credentials any favours.

[Beckwin]

Directly threatening China is really the point of no return. It will lead to their demise in one way or another, and they know that perfectly well. If they're so stubborn that they'd rather go down than reform, it would at least do wonders for a potential coupe d'etat, and it would shatter the KPA's morale if an armed conflict were to take place. The North Korean people have memories; all the songs and portraits in the world aren't going to cover that up. And again, 90% of their energy is imported from China. A reverse fiat lux isn't exactly going to do Kim's divine credentials any favours.

bingo.

[Rammses]

And yes, rebuilding North Korea would be a momentous task and it really can't be compared to the DDR. That was still one of the richer and better administered countries in the world; North Korea could have been more intuitively built in Sim City. If you think South Korean bank rolling could get it up to a decent standard in a decade or so, you're way, way off the mark. It would either have to be an international effort, or you'd have to deal with shitty living conditions and refugees for a long time.

[Indalecia]

Aegis Cruisers/Destroyers have been fitted with BMD (Ballistic Missile Defense) capability in the US since 2006, and successful tests have been run (even up to recent times making headlines) covering the abilities to shoot down incoming missiles. It was the compromise for not getting Star Wars. A total of 18 (3 Cruisers/15 DDG) warships so far have been outfitted with BMD capability in the US fleet as of this year. Technically speaking however, in regards to your comment everything in a carrier battlegroup is actually only there to take the incoming fire for the carrier. Any other service it provides is secondary.



Actually, if you want to get right down to it, the stationing of a carrier battlegroup (CVN73 and its complement airwings and screening fleet) in Japan was the real show of force we put forth. Everything we're adding now is just eyecandy. Additionally, we have another 4 carrier groups that could be there within a 1~3 days timeframe.

Arleigh Burke class destroyer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

which uses the SPY-1D phased array radar
Phased array - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It tracks anything and everything in its AOR.

Also, yeah, carrier groups are the fist of god with brass knuckles.

[Celeste]

I dunno, guys! USA was the first country to use atomic bombs against another country. We sorta set the scale. Those bombs they mentioned, yeah, we used them to level Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think we fire bombed several other cities too? Yeah? Oh well.

I'm not going to be hypocritical enough to say shame on NK.

[Vekta]

I dunno, guys! USA was the first country to use atomic bombs against another country. We sorta set the scale. Those bombs they mentioned, yeah, we used them to level Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think we fire bombed several other cities too? Yeah? Oh well.

I'm not going to be hypocritical enough to say shame on NK.

Wonder what the death toll from a land invasion of japan vs the two nukes that were dropped would of totaled.

If Okinawa is anything to go by the two nukes would have probably paled in comparison.

Comparing the NK situation to the bombing of Japan doesnt quite work.

[Celeste]

Wonder what the death toll from a land invasion of japan vs the two nukes that were dropped would of totaled.

If Okinawa is anything to go by the two nukes would have probably paled in comparison.

Comparing the NK situation to the bombing of Japan doesnt quite work.

Oh, I'm not trying to compare the two. I'm not forming an opinion on the matter is all I'm saying. I feel it's hypocritical to do so considering my country's actions with nuclear weapons in the past.

Cold War is another thing too. The USA and Russia stockpiled tons of weapons during that time, leaving the rest of the world out, and fuck, now other countries want to do it, and we can play the higher authority and chastise them for it? It doesn't feel right.

[Senoska]

Spamming that post count up Mistress?

[Celeste]

Spamming that post count up Mistress?

No, sir.

[Vekta]

Oh, I'm not trying to compare the two. I'm not forming an opinion on the matter is all I'm saying. I feel it's hypocritical to do so considering my country's actions with nuclear weapons in the past.

Cold War is another thing too. The USA and Russia stockpiled tons of weapons during that time, leaving the rest of the world out, and fuck, now other countries want to do it, and we can play the higher authority and chastise them for it? It doesn't feel right.

"Other Countries" being people who possibly couldnt be trusted with a branch off a tree never mind WMDs.

Plenty of people had WMDs during the cold war, just now the people after what should be the ultimate deterrent and a last resort wouldnt think twice about using them oh their enemies.

[Celeste]

"Other Countries" being people who possibly couldnt be trusted with a branch off a tree never mind WMDs.

Plenty of people had WMDs during the cold war, just now the people after what should be the ultimate deterrent and a last resort wouldnt think twice about using them oh their enemies.

So, it's basically, "we know better than them"?

[Vekta]

A 5 year old child knows better than Lil Kimmy.

Then again what would us infidels know right?

[Celeste]

A 5 year old child knows better than Lil Kimmy.

Then again what would us infidels know right?

Infidels? We created Osama Bin Laden and this Al'Qaeda bullshit. But it was okay then, evil Soviets were invading!

[kuronosan]

Oh, I'm not trying to compare the two. I'm not forming an opinion on the matter is all I'm saying. I feel it's hypocritical to do so considering my country's actions with nuclear weapons in the past.

Cold War is another thing too. The USA and Russia stockpiled tons of weapons during that time, leaving the rest of the world out, and fuck, now other countries want to do it, and we can play the higher authority and chastise them for it? It doesn't feel right.

The USA and Russia are both superpowers. North Korea having nukes is like rednecks in Oregon having nukes (in comparison).

It's not hypocritical to prevent other people from making the same mistakes you did. It's hypocritical to talk about how other countries have nukes and use it as your justification to have them as well when you're fucking insane and brainwashing your people to their deaths.

There is absolutely no comparison to past behavior of the world powers and North Korea's current behavior.