North Korea 2nd Nuke Test

[aru]

pffft i don't even want to get involved in the NK shit at all. US needs to stay out and let the UN attempt to do something (looooooool)

Not our job

as much as i'd like to see that happen... yea right.
it'll be all american troops with the "support" of a handful of our closest allies

[Plow]

Warning, this post might get hueg because I went to sleep like 6 pages ago.

That was just one city, but hey don't let that get into your argument. You really think if 17million american cilivians died, we would just forget about it? Don't kid yourself. We would have probably nuked Tokyo instead of two villages.

Actually we did Hiroshima, and the one that ended up in Nagasaki, because they were the perfect strategic targets. Massive direct damage to the industry that not only supported the war, but literally directly supplied it, while providing sufficient psychological impact. On top of that, Hiroshima held a significant chunk of Japan's strongest forces.

I'm not 'taking the side of Japan' I'm saying that killing hundreds of thousands of people was a bad idea when the country we bombed was TRYING to surrender. but I digress.

You, buddy, are just plain full of shit.

Do you know what Japan's direct response was to the surrender offer created by the U.S., Canada, China, England, and the Soviets? Translated literally, it was "we will kill it with silence." A more perfect translation is "uh, we're ignoring this."

Japan's primary conditions for surrender were that the same crazy fucks maintain control, and the handling of all war crimes is done on the inside. The extent to which they demanded to be allowed to continue their military build up is hard to judge.


Most importantly, you're just utterly and entirely ignoring the reality of Japan. Their "greatest" historical trait militarily has been the utter unwillingness to surrender.

Their philosophy was, quite literally, if we can force them to come here and fight, we should be able to kill enough of them to not have to give up as much in the surrender.


There was no "trying to surrender," unless you count trying to bait us into losing hundreds of thousands of soldiers (and giving up similar amounts of their own in the process, which they'd be quite proud to do) so that they can then surrender with more leverage.


The atomic bombs were not dropped as "revenge." The atomic bombs were not designed to "show Russia what we can do," beyond preventing the massive simultaneous invasion.


The atomic bombs were dropped because it was the only way to end the war in a way that did not involve a direct invasion, which may or may not, but most likely would have resulted in many more deaths. Or, you know, letting someone that just tried to literally take over the world and killed millions in the process rebuild and do it again.




Not going to take the time to go further into it than that I guess, it's all that really needs to be said. Well, not all, there's plenty to make of the fact that Japan literally made itself a war machine, its "civilians" being simply the production facet, and treated all those it made war with as though they were the same, among many other things, but it's really not even necessary when you're stupid enough for your entire argument to be "but they wanted to surrender!"


In closing, if you want to make the moral argument, go right ahead. Arguing it as an evil plot to show off power, however, is just stupid, as the reality is it was that or invade, and we cannot judge which was the better military strategy directly.

[noblemountain]

Beckwin, I'm afraid I won't be able to do that. I only hope that the war deaths can serve as a reminder of the pains japan has caused for everyone else during WWII. I bear no ill will toward japan or japanese individually. hell, anime was all i watched growing up and one of my exes is japanese. If I were the pilot I probably couldn't bring myself to hit the bottom, but I am ok with the fact they got a taste of what it was like.

About NK, it's moving its ICBMs. So it's better you gather some provisions and have a contingency plan in case scuffle erupts.

I just read that...I'm really hanging on the thread of KJI's sanity in hoping that he's just flexing his muscles like the insecure kids at the gym.

On another note...I sympathize with what your family went through as mine went through similar things from the Chinese at several points. However, you can't really blame the actions of the few on the many. Just like the German populace didn't really know what was going on (for the most part) the average Japanese citizen had no clue what it's military was doing and would've been appalled by it. Civilian casualties are a byproduct of war, but it's the job of the nations involved to keep it to a minimum. I know every soldier's conscience will eat them alive if they even accidentally take an innocent life. Mine bugs me over some that weren't innocent really, but still didn't sit well. I can't imagine how the pilot's who dropped those bombs or those men who made the decision to drop them must have felt later on.

[archibaldcrane]

I'm a tiny bit late to the Hiroshima/Nagasaki chat, but I hope everyone realizes that the largest price that would've been paid had the war continued would've been paid by the Chinese, who were starving by the millions come 1945 because of Japan.

China had more civilian deaths (over 16 million) than any other country in WWII, and their dead were well over 25% of the total deaths from the war.

In my opinion, you can argue that the bombs should've been dropped on different targets, or that they should've been dropped sooner (even days sooner if possible), but arguing they should've never been used, from a "casualties" standpoint, isn't even close to a winnable argument.

edit: Looks like this has been somewhat covered, just wanted to make sure it was clear who the biggest "winner" in ending the war ASAP was.

[Plow]

In my opinion, you can argue that the bombs should've been dropped on different targets, or that they should've been dropped sooner (even days sooner if possible), but arguing they should've never been used, from a "casualties" standpoint, isn't even close to a winnable argument.

But, hey, if you can paint the picture that the entirety of Japan was standing outside waving white flags and we went and dropped a couple nukes on a bunch of em, you don't have to worry about those silly "legitimate argument" things.

[Beckwin]

Archibald, at the time of the bombings and surrender talks, the Russians were in the middle of stomping the Japanese in China, making Japan very afraid of an imminent Russian invasion of the islands.

[Plow]

The big concern other than the massive fighting in an invasion was the possibility of communist dictators having too big of an influence if we waited and allowed them to get to Japan.

Meanwhile Japan was just trying to convince Russia to back off long enough to kill enough Americans to gain leverage and redirect some of the power where they'd prefer.

[Meian]

by Onion's and Chubbs' {surprised tbh} logic: I should be punished for what Americans have done to blacks during times of slavery and afterwards so I can UNDERSTAND what it feels like (taste of "my" own medicine) which occured far BEFORE I was born. But let us not stop there, I should also be punished for what the US has done to Japan with the nukes (assuming if one thinks it was a mistake and evil even though I think it is more grey than black or white in terms of Truman's decision which was incredibly difficult for a man in his position), what we did in Vietnam, what we did to those alleged terrorists we captured and tortured in inhumane ways that wasn't aware by the public for a while, and for the mass genocides and rape {sounds familiar} going around in a "certain area" in Africa because we aren't pressing into stopping thus making us just as bad as the problem itself, and the list can keep on going.

Yes, I should be punished. I have to feel everything that this country has done wrong to others. With that logic, other countries should do the same. Good thing for war so we can punish each other----hmm...

The fact that I am from Peru and moved to America when I was six months old is trivial because I lived pretty much my whole life in the states so I should be equally punished for association.


Anyway, back on the real topic.


At this point I am running out of ideas in what "anyone" (not just the US) can do. The only safest way so far I can think of is China lays down the law considering how much influence and aid they are giving NK. If NK considers China hostile and even threatens them, then damn... I am unsure if having China cut them off entirely would be more humane than having a pre-emptive strike and ending it as early as possible instead of letting them suffer a long period of time {prolly resulting in more deaths?}...

[Plow]

by Onion's and Chubbs' {surprised tbh} logic: I should be punished for what Americans have done to blacks during times of slavery and afterwards so I can UNDERSTAND what it feels like (taste of "my" own medicine) which occured far BEFORE I was born. But let us not stop there, I should also be punished for what the US has done to Japan with the nukes (assuming if one thinks it was a mistake and evil even though I think it is more grey than black or white in terms of Truman's decision which was incredibly difficult for a man in his position), what we did in Vietnam, what we did to those alleged terrorists we captured and tortured in inhumane ways that wasn't aware by the public for a while, and for the mass genocides and rape {sounds familiar} going around in a "certain area" in Africa because we aren't pressing into stopping thus making us just as bad as the problem itself, and the list can keep on going.

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but did you just put torturing some prisoners right in line with the Vietnam War, use of nuclear bombs, and mass genocide?


I love America.

[Meian]

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but did you just put torturing some prisoners right in line with the Vietnam War, use of nuclear bombs, and mass genocide?


I love America.

lol I was about to head to bed and picked random things I could think of since the list could be long (major headache and super tired). Was doing a weak attempt at trying to combine how the forms of torture put them in a similiar level as the terrorists did (although not quite so similiar but yea, weak attempt so bit of a fail on my part with listing accurately but the point is still made).

[0ni0n]

lol I was about to head to bed and picked random things I could think of since the list could be long (major headache and super tired). Was doing a weak attempt at trying to combine how the forms of torture put them in a similiar level as the terrorists did (although not quite so similiar but yea, weak attempt so bit of a fail on my part with listing accurately but the point is still made).

No offense, but the fact that you and Mistress insist that prisoner torture and the raping and murdering of millions are perfectly comparable shows how much you know about the enormity and magnitude of historical events. They aren't even remotely the same thing.

[HadesChubbs]

No offense, but the fact that you and Mistress insist that prisoner torture and the raping and murdering of millions are perfectly comparable shows how much you know about the enormity and magnitude of historical events. They aren't even remotely the same thing.

Dumb people are dumb, mang. They see what they want, and are willing to twist and reword what you say to further their point. Not Saying meian is dumb. I'd have his babies.

[archibaldcrane]

Archibald, at the time of the bombings and surrender talks, the Russians were in the middle of stomping the Japanese in China, making Japan very afraid of an imminent Russian invasion of the islands.

Basically my point was that even if they would've surrendered without an invasion (which is doubtful at best), it would've definitely taken many months for that to happen.

In that time, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Chinese civilians would've died.

There was no way to end that situation without a massive, massive pile of bodies. The only questions were how massive did you want that pile to be, and whose bodies were they going to be. It sucks that war, especially that war, becomes -that- immensely abstract, but Japan was the aggressor, and it's the least wrong that it was their bodies.

[Celeste]

Ah, I am completely disgusted now. Arrogance knows no bounds. Your inability to see the cost of civilian life being far too high to reckon with makes me fear for the future of this world. We're all just turning into a bunch of sociopaths it seems. I pity you all, I really do. It's just so goddamn easy to have that sort of attitude ingrained into you. It's so much easier to clutch to ignorance as if it were life support.

They started it, right? They fucking deserve it. Kill all those jappo, raghead, and brainwashed commies! We fight the good fight! They started it! Right? Right..?

[HadesChubbs]

Ah, I am completely disgusted now. Arrogance knows no bounds. Your inability to see the cost of civilian life being far too high to reckon with makes me fear for the future of this world. We're all just turning into a bunch of sociopaths it seems. I pity you all, I really do. It's just so goddamn easy to have that sort of attitude ingrained into you. It's so much easier to clutch to ignorance as if it were life support.

They started it, right? They fucking deserve it. Kill all those jappo, raghead, and brainwashed commies! We fight the good fight! They started it! Right? Right..?

You don't understand how the world works. Hows life in fucking lala land?? Just calm down, think what you want, but dont continue to criticize the rest of us when you know you're living in a god damn dream world. Lifes a fucking bitch, and you are fucking annoying.

[Beckwin]

ah, the good ol' condescension routine- implying "not getting it" or naivety when justifying massive death counts.

see, you guys just don't get it... there are terrorists out there, and they want to take our freedom. this is war. don't question the deaths of 100k iraqi civilians, or torture, or selectively supporting regimes that are just as bad as the ones we fight but happen to like our money... you just don't understand, get out of la-la bleeding heart liberal land.

The problem is that when you understand all too well how things have been working, you see a lot of problems. There's no reason to accept shit when we're capable of better, however marginally better that may be.

[HadesChubbs]

ah, the good ol' condescension routine- implying "not getting it" or naivety when justifying massive death counts.

see, you guys just don't get it... there are terrorists out there, and they want to take our freedom. this is war. don't question the deaths of 100k iraqi civilians, or torture, or selectively supporting regimes that are just as bad as the ones we fight but happen to like our money... you just don't understand, get out of la-la bleeding heart liberal land.

The problem is that when you understand all too well how things have been working, you see a lot of problems. There's no reason to accept shit when we're capable of better, however marginally better that may be.

If only there could be better. What one is forced to do is often looked down upon.. I'm sure he wasnt happy about his decision, nor would anyone be happy about killing that many (maybe a few nut jobs). In the end of the day you have to do what will overall be best. And that includes killing people who never deserved it. But it saves OUR people who never deserved it. "Better them than us". I am indeed selfish. Fuck them if it saves me (too a certain degree).

[Kuya]

As always, it's perfectly easy to talk about sacrificing others or talking about having no other options than to kill others when you're not the victim or those you care for are not the victims. However, once you are the sacrifice being discussed and when you notice how casually people refer to your existence, how easily they can speak of throwing your life away for the greater good, all bets are off.

That's why i avoid speaking liberally of the lives of others, because i know i don't have the balls to accept the situation where it to be revered. Where i willing to sacrifice myself or those i care for for someone else's, no matter who, intentions, then i would probably freely talk about sacrificing people's lives.

[Celeste]

You don't understand how the world works. Hows life in fucking lala land?? Just calm down, think what you want, but dont continue to criticize the rest of us when you know you're living in a god damn dream world. Lifes a fucking bitch, and you are fucking annoying.

Our lives are over in the blink of an eye, life is but a dream. Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream.

[HadesChubbs]

Our lives are over in the blink of an eye, life is but a dream. Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream.

My dad lost many friends (and one brother) in nam. Same war? Naw. But to war none the less. Civilian? NOPE! But a relative/friend is a relative/friend none the less. They signed up for it.. and by living here so did we. If a bomb was to hit us today, i'd say it was a price to pay for living as good as we have for the last X amount of years. Fair? No. In their eyes, neccessary? Possibly. And thats why we do what we do. To prove what we think is right, and what they think doesn't matter. Welcome to war.