Bard makeover due?

[Tempyst]

It will take me at least 30mins to try to correct all your mistakes. Let me simply point out few important ones:
1) BLM and RDM relics are far from useless

Seeing as how the context of that post was gjallarhorn vs. mandau/excal or claustrum, maybe you should have spent 45 minutes "correcting" his "mistakes".

I'm going to assume this is a reading comprehension issue and you don't really think Mandau/Excal/Claustrum for RDM and BLM are marginally useful when compared to Gjallarhorn

[Asmoranomar]

Few quick clarifications for non-BRD's:

1) 75 BRD hits the cap for piratically every single song without gear or merits. It's easy to cap every song but one with merits and/or AF+AH items - something everyone has.

2) BRD skills might cap at 225, but every song is based on instrument skill, singing skill and CHR(enfeebles). While the formula isn't quite known, it's pretty easy to debuff most mobs without the use of gear other than an instrument. Tack on a HQ staff and some generic AH gear and you can land spells no problem (barring magic resistant mobs like birds, or HNM that need ES).

I also do want to throw in a quick comment about gear:

As a melee, you tend to focus on things that make you melee better, other stuff comes secondary.
As a healer, you tend to focus on things that make you heal better, other stuff comes secondary.
As a nuker, you tend to focus on things that make you nuke better, other stuff comes secondary.
As a BRD (Buffer), we can't really focus on things to make us better, so we tend to focus on other things - survivability(casting faster, etc), larger MP pools, pulling, etc etc etc.

There IS gear for us, but all of it amounts to a negligible boost.

I mean -
I have a kickass skill build, but no one cares that my Marches are 0.X% better than anyone elses (seriously, its like...nothing - where's that March tier post Kirschy has?).
I have a kickass string build, but no one cares I can sing songs at near max range.
I have a kickass fast cast build and -SST Latent build, but no one cares I can sing songs in 2 seconds (hey, thats 4 songs in less time it takes to cast 1 normally!), nor do they care my latent is always active (actually the healers hate me for it).
I have an awesome MND+SS build, but no one cares.
I have an awesome +MP build, but no one cares.
I have an awesome -DMG% build (back when all einherjar mobs used to agro, and when brds used to tank!), but no one cares.

But look! There's a gimp BRD with (dare I say?) *gasp* G.Horn! All hail the relic 'multi-box'! --- Never mind the fact that I can do my job better better than he can (minus ballads).

But I will say, once you start getting up there - it's all about the small differences. This goes for any job. I constantly hear melee talking about switching out builds in there gear to do like what? 10 extra DMG over the course of 20 mins? It's just you guys do it between two well-respected well-geared individuals, and BRD's do it to every other BRD...even some bots.

[Yugl]

This just in, TBR is afraid to commit himself to a support job.

Amazing what asinine statements can do for you.

Don't worry, it's because you're a guy. Guys can't commit. Apparently, neither can I though.

[Lekotas]

Look, Lets put it this way. Composure makes RDM Solo awesome.

If you don't like the fact some other guy who has some awesome computer or another xbox went an bought/stole/recieved an account with 75 BRd which he dboxes for his LS, then don't deal with it.

The fact is BRD is a very simplistic job to move around and stuff on, and yes skills impact is little more than march tiers once capped or increase song range with string(lol string). I agree with you C&O that CHR needs to have a bigger impact on the potency of stuff like Requiem and Threnodies, but not Elegy. Elegy breaks mobs and makes tanking them ridiculously easier, so stuff that needs ES elegy should remain needing Es elegy, but honestly a higher impact on threnodies and Requiem would be nice.

Secondly, do you know why so many really good BLM's leveled SCH? Have you actually seen a capable scholar in action? I'm going to go with no, because if you did, you'd see exactly how much better they are than BLM at soloing. BLM can AM2 3-4 times generally and be out of MP. and have done 4k DMG. For the same amount of MP(consider full sublimation tank). A SCH can blizz IV for twice that much damage assuming no resists. Tell me in a 45min fight how(assume they have same macc) having a BLM over a SCH wouldn't shorten it? If a SCH can cast a spell that does maybe 300less dmg, and cast atleast twice as many spells, and keep casting because they don't have to rest while BLM's are, that SCH isn't better than BLM? ofcourse, thats taking into account the need of massive amounts of macc and incredible gear, but the fact remains SCH has the potential to make a BLM look pathetic. Thats why BLM needs an update. Pup and the others just need JSE and some minor tweaks.

[orson]

I just want to say this thread is turning into a mage tutorial lesson, I feel as if I am teaching non-BRD (or more accurately non-mage) players how to play a mage job.


It will take me at least 30mins to try to correct all your mistakes. Let me simply point out few important ones:
1) BLM and RDM relics are far from useless
2) Fastcast is one of the most important feature of RDM, if you don't understand why, I suggest you post it under RDM forum and ppl will tell you the reason
3) Fastcast and haste gear have far less impact on BRD songs than RDM routines. Do you actually think BRD needs shorter recast on minuet/march/madrigal/ballad so that they shed a couple seconds of casting time and play the aoe songs they just land on everyone else in the party again 15 seconds later? You can probably argue about Pianissimo but all you need to do is alternate songs and by the time the second song is done, the first song is back on. If you BRD constantly need to recast Horde Lullaby before the effect of the song wears off it either means you LS screw up the pulling part or ppl wake slept mobs up prematurely.

I have lv75 BLM, RDM and BRD, full morrigan/marduk and full RDM af2 etc. I am well aware of what these jobs are capable of and the influence of the gears on their corresponding jobs. You keep saying you don't believe gear doesn't help BRDs as much as any other jobs, my question is how do you know it's not the case if you don't even play the job? Judging from your comments I doubt you have much experience in RDM/BLM/BRD. I think it will be better if you at least do some research or ask the opinion of your LS mages. Cuz I am getting tired typing out all the basic facts.

The second job I took to 75 job is Blm and I've spent a long time on it. I know plenty about mage's capabilities and limitations. Don't make stupid assumptions about people you don't know shit about.

Blm's relic isn't useless? lolClaustrum ring a bell? Also if start spewing shit about Rdm's relic helping to do their role in anything other solo and small group things it'll just reveal how out of touch with the game you really are.

Having better quality gear on Blms, Rdms, Whms, and Schs mainly allows you to reduce the number of those jobs in an alliance and also helps them to solo better. No where did I say that fast cast isn't useful for Rdm, what I said or meant to get across was it is not the most important thing for the job. Not having rare fast cast and haste gear stops a Rdm from doing what's needed in most situations. To sit there and say that fast cast, -song casting gear, and haste gear helps out Brd significantly less than Rdm really isn't correct. Less casting time means you spend more time supporting just like Rdm and lower recasts mean you can resong parties faster after mobs that have dispel or swapping parties it makes things easier. You undervalue because the difference it makes is slightly less than that of regular mages.

Again your whole point behind this argument is you don't like the current level of impact gear has on your job. Many brds will disagree with you and tell you exactly what I'm saying. Yes Brd's gear has slightly less impact on performance than conventional mage jobs but Brd isn't a mage job. Brd has been designed specifically to work the way it does, making it very effective because it supports so well. It's enfeebles are obviously meant to either land easily or be resisted it has a shit skill for macc. Obviously Stun should also be completely based on gear because Rdm/Drk is ruining my Blm's fun being able to stun with incredibly low skill (that makes as much sense as Brd needing an overhaul.) Brd is not flawed, your e-peen is just hurting.

You need to go back to read Kaeko's post. SCH can potentially outperform BLM in long fight because of better MP efficiency. The fact is if a LS has enough BLMs the fight won't last long enough for SCH to put out competitive amount of total damage.

Kaeko isn't really the sole information on Sch vs Blm but I know what you're referencing and I have read his posts. Yes if you have enough blms to literally kill the mob(s) quickly then Blm has an edge but you're talking in circles though. Blm does not have the edge in many many scenarios. You think that Blms are desired more than Schs because you might have the remote scenario where you are able to do something like boot a Blm from the alliance to invite one with a fresh mp pool on a HNM. Schs are extremely effective in many situations as nukers, healers, and support so why should they have an edge over Blm's damage in any situation?

Seriously ppl need to get their facts right. The adjustment we ask for does not change what a BRD can do. We don't need a major boost to get into exp party or endgame LS. We are asking for an adjustment which separates good RBDs from bad BRDs. You can't compare the situation to BST/PUP because those jobs are competiting with other DD jobs.

BRD's case is unique because it's the only job when you hit the soft cap, it doesn't matter what you put in your 13 gear slots. Imaginehow will you feel if every 6 STR only return 0.1 attack when the total amount of STR is above 100?

Really? Again this boils down to just bitching. Why isn't there gear that adds more power Cor's buffs? Why isn't refresh, protect, shell, haste affected by gear? Why isn't flash and stun heavily affected by skill and gear? Brd is already a heavily popular job and the fact that it's buffs and enfeebles don't need a crap load macc/chr/whatever is nothing unique.

HQ gear may not help Brd as much as regular mage jobs but you can still tell the difference between a gimp and a well geared Brd. It does make a noticeable difference. Even if you don't need a shit load of HQ gear to perform most expected as a Brd it's just your opinion that, that is a bad thing. Again nothing is really wrong with Brd. There are so many other jobs and generally other problems in the game that deserve far more attention than Brd.

Discussing NIN and BLM update is the first step to opening another can or worms. All I can say is that SE seem to only adjust jobs for specific reasons. For example, WHM update to make WHM a much better healer than SCH. MNK update to improve their performance against HNM (not really doing its job I must say). And clearly "not having a recent update" is not a good enough reason for them to change a job.

Are you high? Whm had arguably less need of an update than Blm or Nin. Mnk they gave them footwork to make them better against HNM? Says who? You're just reading into stuff and making assumptions. Also what possible reason War or Thf needed Retaliation or Accomplice/Collaborator? They updated those jobs because they were over due for an update.

[Ahlah]

I agree with you C&O that CHR needs to have a bigger impact on the potency of stuff like Requiem and Threnodies, but not Elegy. Elegy breaks mobs and makes tanking them ridiculously easier, so stuff that needs ES elegy should remain needing Es elegy, but honestly a higher impact on threnodies and Requiem would be nice.

I have already said it twice in my previous post, lower elegy baseline effect to 47% and raise its cap to 52%. It's not going to break the game and gimped BRD still do fine in endgame situations.

Secondly, do you know why so many really good BLM's leveled SCH?

BLM is my first lv75 job and I see absolutely no reason to level SCH apart from soloing UFO in sea. From LS's perfective, they can bring BLMs to any manaburn HNM fight (try doing JoL with SCH) on top of that BLM have more unique abilities which can be potentially life saving - stun, sleepga, ES+sleep. If you want to argue about MP issue just bring more BLMs and rotate them in to dump MP and you get a shorter fight without the fuss to get all your SCHs Novio etc.

Seeing as how the context of that post was gjallarhorn vs. mandau/excal or claustrum, maybe you should have spent 45 minutes "correcting" his "mistakes".

I'm going to assume this is a reading comprehension issue and you don't really think Mandau/Excal/Claustrum for RDM and BLM are marginally useful when compared to Gjallarhorn

Actually when I saw the word relics I thought you meant AF2 lol.
When SE designed relics weapons they are meant to be the best melee weapon in their corresponding group. Mandau/Excalibur/Claustrum do serve this purpose. Gjallarhorn is not a weapon, it's designed to be the most powerful instrument and yet any +2 song instruments grants the same effect as Gjallarhorn. As mentioned before, if SE add a +2 ballad instrument Gjallarhorn will become the biggest relic joke.

[Ahlah]

The second job I took to 75 job is Blm and I've spent a long time on it. I know plenty about mage's capabilities and limitations. Don't make stupid assumptions about people you don't know shit about.

The fact that you keep going over and over about how SCH is better than BLM in endgame scenario proves that you have very little knowledge of the job.

Kaeko isn't really the sole information on Sch vs Blm but I know what you're referencing and I have read his posts. Yes if you have enough blms to literally kill the mob(s) quickly then Blm has an edge but you're talking in circles though. Blm does not have the edge in many many scenarios. You think that Blms are desired more than Schs because you might have the remote scenario where you are able to do something like boot a Blm from the alliance to invite one with a fresh mp pool on a HNM. Schs are extremely effective in many situations as nukers, healers, and support so why should they have an edge over Blm's damage in any situation?

You are not seriously thinking SCH is preferred over RDM/WHM/BLM in endgame battles? Get a WHM if you need a healer, BRD/COR if you need a support job and BLM for nuking. Endgame is all about job specialisation and SCH will always remain a second class hybrid job that no1 cares about except players who are too lazy to solo BLM or find it too boring to level WHM.

From LS's perspective it's a huge waste of time to gear up SCH. BLMs work in all manaburn scenarios (think Ouryu/JoL), the job has some unique and important abilities/spells which can potentially save the alliance (stun, ES sleep) Plus the more BLMs a LS have, the faster they can take down HNMs which make your point obsolete. I bet you must be one of those BLMs who sub SCH for cheaper nukes. Learn how to play the job to its full potential.

Really? Again this boils down to just bitching. Why isn't there gear that adds more power Cor's buffs? Why isn't refresh, protect, shell, haste affected by gear? Why isn't flash and stun heavily affected by skill and gear? Brd is already a heavily popular job and the fact that it's buffs and enfeebles don't need a crap load macc/chr/whatever is nothing unique.

COR's Quick draw is affected by AGI and magic accuracy. Phantom rolls are not fixed value, it can be enhanced with the presence of appropriate jobs and a smart COR can potentially modify the results using merits and commonsense. I have already touched on haste/refresh. Protectra V and Shellra V are heavily affected by merits. Again you are missing the point, no1 says BRD should get stronger buffs. We are saying that not all BRD should have the same song effects regardless of gear/skill.

HQ gear may not help Brd as much as regular mage jobs but you can still tell the difference between a gimp and a well geared Brd. It does make a noticeable difference. Even if you don't need a shit load of HQ gear to perform most expected as a Brd it's just your opinion that, that is a bad thing. Again nothing is really wrong with Brd. There are so many other jobs and generally other problems in the game that deserve far more attention than Brd.

Level BRD yourself since you don't believe what ppl said on this forum,

Are you high? Whm had arguably less need of an update than Blm or Nin. Mnk they gave them footwork to make them better against HNM? Says who? You're just reading into stuff and making assumptions. Also what possible reason War or Thf needed Retaliation or Accomplice/Collaborator? They updated those jobs because they were over due for an update.

Check out Fanfest 2008 interview report, when asked about SCH, SE specifically mentioned they wanted to increase the gap between SCH and WHM. SE already adjusted dagger base damage long before they introduced accomplice/collaborator, they still gave THF something new because the developers believe THF should be a job specialised in enmity control. Footwork is supposed to compensate for h2h low base attack. Under specific conditions it does help MNK to deal better damage on high defense mobs, it's just not good enough to compete with 2h weapons. I must say retaliation is the odd one but we can go into details of how 2h weapon affect SAM/DRK/DRG/WAR and justify a minor adjustment to boost WAR's performance since it's a pure melee job and has no other beneficial JAs which enhance party performance (SAM can give TP, DRK has stun absorb spells, DRG has angon etc and lol @ provokewarcry).

SE even mentioned a new JA which allows NIN to drop enmity for a short period of time (i.e. to help NIN tank better). They certainly don't adjust a job just because it hasn't got an update for a long time. Many jobs have received more than one adjustment over the past 2 years (PLD, PUP, DRK, SAM

P/S: Regarding fastcast, I suggest you level RDM too, may be you will learn to appreciate the importance of fastcast when you have 4 members to refresh, 2 members to haste on top of the debuff and support healing routine. SE give RDM fastcast trait for good reasons. Also do you even know why RDM/NIN has become a viable endgame tank job?

[Asmoranomar]

HQ gear may not help Brd as much as regular mage jobs but you can still tell the difference between a gimp and a well geared Brd. It does make a noticeable difference.

I've had One person outside of my linkshell comment about my gear on BRD in the past 4 years. I don't even know what other people/linkshells think of my BRD. Despite this, I have every piece of BRD gear you can imagine, minus relic.

Yet at the same time, we have a really well-known kick-ass BLM; Several awesome PLD's and DD's, and all of them are constantly woo'ed by other people and linkshells.

I'm not asking for any attention, but if you really think people care about what equipment BRD has and the 'additional' support a better geared BRD has to offer, your gravely mistaken. No one cares.

This is also easily discounted for the sheer number of linkshells that will recruit practically any main BRD - despite gear, despite merits, despite experience, and even despite missions requirements/area access, etc. You'll never get that with any other job unless they are pimp HOT or have an 'in' with the linkshell.

oh...and obligatory - "No you don't notice the difference - it's the same damn buffs.", the BRD might know the difference, but everyone else certainly doesn't.

[orson]

Wow you are completely ignoring what I'm saying. This time you even specifically cut out parts of what I wrote.

The fact that you keep going over and over about how SCH is better than BLM in endgame scenario proves that you have very little knowledge of the job.

You are not seriously thinking SCH is preferred over RDM/WHM/BLM in endgame battles? Get a WHM if you need a healer, BRD/COR if you need a support job and BLM for nuking. Endgame is all about job specialisation and SCH will always remain a second class hybrid job that no1 cares about except players who are too lazy to solo BLM or find it too boring to level WHM.

From LS's perspective it's a huge waste of time to gear up SCH. BLMs work in all manaburn scenarios (think Ouryu/JoL), the job has some unique and important abilities/spells which can potentially save the alliance (stun, ES sleep) Plus the more BLMs a LS have, the faster they can take down HNMs which make your point obsolete. I bet you must be one of those BLMs who sub SCH for cheaper nukes. Learn how to play the job to its full potential.

Blm > Sch in all situations and that people prefer Blms > Schs all the time is incorrect. You also apparently can't read very well because no where did I say that Sch is preferred over Rdm or Whm but it serves the role of a healer and support very effectively.

I sub Sch for cheaper spells? OMFG, You don't know shit about how I play on Blm or what I've fought on it. You'd have to be retarded to use /Sch in most situations as Blm but it does have use in certain fights or do you not think so? Seriously do you or your friends test anything yourself? Do you actually have any competent and well geared Schs in your LS? This is just getting fucking annoying so I'm not going to bother arguing with you any more about Sch especially since it's way off topic.

COR's Quick draw is affected by AGI and magic accuracy. Phantom rolls are not fixed value, it can be enhanced with the presence of appropriate jobs and a smart COR can potentially modify the results using merits and commonsense. I have already touched on haste/refresh. Protectra V and Shellra V are heavily affected by merits. Again you are missing the point, no1 says BRD should get stronger buffs. We are saying that not all BRD should have the same song effects regardless of gear/skill.


Level BRD yourself since you don't believe what ppl said on this forum,

Again you completely ignored my point. I don't know whether I'm not making it clear enough or you just aren't reading what I wrote. There are precedents for spells and many abilities to be almost completely unaffected by gear. Brd's gear does affect what they do it's just your personal opinion that it doesn't have a big enough impact. As for your example that protect/shell V is heavily based on merits. Well ya, but it isn't affected by gear by your logic a Whm or Rdm with a gimp mnd/enhancing should have a lower prot/shell than one with amazing gear. Not all things are impacted, heavily or at all by gear nor should they necessarily be.

Check out Fanfest 2008 interview report, when asked about SCH, SE specifically mentioned they wanted to increase the gap between SCH and WHM. SE already adjusted dagger base damage long before they introduced accomplice/collaborator, they still gave THF something new because the developers believe THF should be a job specialised in enmity control. Footwork is supposed to compensate for h2h low base attack. Under specific conditions it does help MNK to deal better damage on high defense mobs, it's just not good enough to compete with 2h weapons. I must say retaliation is the odd one but we can go into details of how 2h weapon affect SAM/DRK/DRG/WAR and justify a minor adjustment to boost WAR's performance since it's a pure melee job and has no other beneficial JAs which enhance party performance (SAM can give TP, DRK has stun absorb spells, DRG has angon etc).

SE even mentioned a new JA which allows NIN to drop enmity for a short period of time (i.e. to help NIN tank better). They certainly don't adjust a job just because it hasn't got an update for a long time. Many jobs have received more than one adjustment over the past 2 years (PLD, PUP, DRK, SAM

You seriously aren't reading what I'm writing are you? I didn't say SE didn't mention the fact they wanted to update Whm. On the contrary I know they specifically mentioned Whm last fanfest. I said that arguably it wasn't bad off compared to other jobs but it too was overdue for an update! They had been saying for a long time that they would be adding new spells to Whm, Rdm, and Blm (maybe for Blm that just meant retrace if that was the case, fuck you, SE.)

You are right that they often update jobs to balance them that isn't a disputable fact but War, Thf, Mnk, Rdm, and many job updates recently did not change game or job balance. SE did announce that they were going to add each of those updates well before they came out but for the most part they didn't say specifically "we want to do this so XX job can do XX better." The Mnk one honestly I think you're pulling right outta your ass. I recall them saying simply they wanted give Mnks the ability to kick more/harder nothing that I can recall about them saying to make them better on HNMs (that was speculation by the community I'm pretty sure.)

Blm and Nin are the only jobs that haven't received any significant and positive updates unique to their job. We know it's likely that Nin will be getting an update soon but it seems more like Nin is getting a new toy as opposed to something that will significantly change the dynamics of playing the job. Just the way updates have went it seems as though SE wants to add something new to every job slowly over time. Blm and Nin are due.

P/S: Regarding fastcast, I suggest you level RDM too, may be you will learn to appreciate the importance of fastcast when you have 4 members to refresh, 2 members to haste on top of the debuff and support healing routine. SE give RDM fastcast trait for good reasons. Also do you even know why RDM/NIN has become a viable endgame tank job?

Again, reading comprehension!! You're talking about Brd's gear effectiveness! I was talking about Rdms gear effectiveness! Yigit Gomlek and other gear similar to that is helpful for Brd in a very similar way to Rdm! NO WHERE DID I SAY FAST CAST WASN'T USEFUL FOR RDM!!!!!!! I said specifically Duelist's Chapeau + Refresh Body is the biggest upgrades they can get, not fast cast gear. Does not having Loquacious Earring and Duelist's Tabard stop a Rdm from performing well? No. Does adding those said pieces of gear save you way more time than Brd? Maybe a bit but Brds can definitely make almost as good use out of fast cast, -song casting, and haste gear in many situations. Sure on a single HNM it becomes less important but it does help, you can in theory do stuff like keep songs on each party in the entire alliance.

I've had One person outside of my linkshell comment about my gear on BRD in the past 4 years. I don't even know what other people/linkshells think of my BRD. Despite this, I have every piece of BRD gear you can imagine, minus relic.

Yet at the same time, we have a really well-known kick-ass BLM; Several awesome PLD's and DD's, and all of them are constantly woo'ed by other people and linkshells.

I'm not asking for any attention, but if you really think people care about what equipment BRD has and the 'additional' support a better geared BRD has to offer, your gravely mistaken. No one cares.

This is also easily discounted for the sheer number of linkshells that will recruit practically any main BRD - despite gear, despite merits, despite experience, and even despite missions requirements/area access, etc. You'll never get that with any other job unless they are pimp HOT or have an 'in' with the linkshell.

oh...and obligatory - "No you don't notice the difference - it's the same damn buffs.", the BRD might know the difference, but everyone else certainly doesn't.

Reality is Brd plays vicariously through the jobs it supports. That is the reason why people are less likely to notice Brds in general and complement them on gear. The reason LSs often just recruit brds with shit gear is A) the LS is probably stupid because a player that doesn't put effort into gear doesn't put effort into playing the job well and B) because very few people like to play brd a lot. Again I'm not saying that gear impacts Brd as heavily as certain jobs but most mage jobs can also fulfill their role almost as effectively in easy to get R/EX and AH gear. Many Whms and Rdms both fall under the exact same recruitment as what you described for Brd. A Rdm/Blm with full Slow II merits works in the same style as a Brd/Blm with full Troub merits. Brds hit what they need for debuff gear easier than other mage jobs and their buffs aren't overly affected by gear this is a negative why? Even based on that it still doesn't mean that something like Marduk Body is useless for a Brd. In events like Einherjar you can really notice that the better geared Brds sleep mobs a lot more reliably and tend to have a much greater survivability. It really just boils down to a personal opinion that gear doesn't have a big enough impact on Brd and certain people want lower end Brds nerfed.

[Kaeko]

@Orson+C&O Debate:

1. Just because someone attempts to argue that SCH is better than BLM does not automatically mean they got the idea from my blog. People are more than capable of forming their own ideas.

2. Just because someone mentions my name in an argument does not make them right - but it doesn't automatically make them wrong + blind follower either. Though this really doesn't even apply in this case because Orson was not even the first to mention my name in the argument between you two. He mentioned SCH and you just assumed he blindly followed what I wrote. Again, see #1.

3. This statement...

Try to learn to process information when they are presented to you, don't just treat them as fact simply because they are posted by some1 reputable (no offense to Kaeko).

...is horribly condescending towards the person you're arguing with. You will have a hard time convincing anyone period by implying "you're a blind follower you can't think for yourself". It's obviously not offensive to me, but it is to the guy you're debating. I'm actually quite surprised that it's been as civil as it is in this topic.

4. You win, lose, or utterly crash and burn in arguments on the merit of your own words.

5. I have nothing to add to the actual argument because see #4.

[Tempyst]

Actually when I saw the word relics I thought you meant AF2 lol.
When SE designed relics weapons they are meant to be the best melee weapon in their corresponding group. Mandau/Excalibur/Claustrum do serve this purpose. Gjallarhorn is not a weapon, it's designed to be the most powerful instrument and yet any +2 song instruments grants the same effect as Gjallarhorn. As mentioned before, if SE add a +2 ballad instrument Gjallarhorn will become the biggest relic joke.

A. Claustrum serves a purpose? lol
B. What kind of argument is that, if they add a Damage 90 dagger then mandau will become the biggest relic joke too. The chances of either happening: not bloody likely

[The Blackrose]

I just want to say this thread is turning into a mage tutorial lesson, I feel as if I am teaching non-BRD (or more accurately non-mage) players how to play a mage job.


It will take me at least 30mins to try to correct all your mistakes. Let me simply point out few important ones:
1) BLM and RDM relics are far from useless

Wait... WHAT?!

Someone's three seconds from becoming the next Ahlah. And we all know where he ended up.

[Ahlah]

Orson do you even read the whole thread before you start arguing?

The BLM vs SCH discussion only started because some1 thinks BLM deserve an update since they are apparently "outnuked" by SCH and I simply pointed out that no LS in their right mind will ever use SCH over BLM simply because SCH can potentially nuke better over time. You are the one who barge in and start your silly argument.

You seriously need to play BRD and RDM. Yigit gomlek reduces song casting time by 10%, big thing! Your sing your song 0.8 second faster and it lands on everyone in your party end of story. RDM AF hat + AF2 body + job traits shorten casting time by 40% and recast by 20%, which allows RDM to land refresh on 4 party members 12 seconds faster than without any fastcast gear (we haven't even included any haste gear). If you think shedding 12 seconds from RDM routine is no big deal, what makes you think Yigit gomlek actually do BRD any good?

Blm and Nin are the only jobs that haven't received any significant and positive updates unique to their job. We know it's likely that Nin will be getting an update soon but it seems more like Nin is getting a new toy as opposed to something that will significantly change the dynamics of playing the job. Just the way updates have went it seems as though SE wants to add something new to every job slowly over time. Blm and Nin are due.

Perhaps you should level NIN too. The proposed new job ability allows NIN to recast shadow without getting interrupted, bounce hate with co-tank and save themselve in emergency situation. THF and melee/THF will be able to SATA on NIN more reliably. It has huge implication in both exp party and endgame situation. Unless the recast is ridiculously long it's definitely going to be more than just a "new toy".

I have said it many times, SE only introduce adjustment when they believe there are things to fix. BRD is already in high demand and SE still give them Pianissimo and it actually improves the gameplay and make the job more efficient, I have no doubt they will go back to change BRD again if ES elegy and gear/skill sof cap are brought to their attention. If ppl can think of a good reason to change BLMs I am sure SE will consider it, but saying that BLM deserve an update simply because it hasn't got one in a long time is not going to interest SE.

A. Claustrum serves a purpose? lol
B. What kind of argument is that, if they add a Damage 90 dagger then mandau will become the biggest relic joke too. The chances of either happening: not bloody likely

Relic weapons are pure melee weapons, it's the best melee staff you can get in this game. If you want to argue about usefulness at least use mythic weapon vs HQ elemental staves.
Mandau will still stand out if SE adds a dagger which has the exact same base damage and delay as Mandau - the occasional 3 times damage + Mercy stroke are what make it the best dagger in this game. Gjallarhorn is practically no difference from any other +2 song instrument. If SE adds a +2 ballad instrument the only reason to get Gjallarhorn is to save youself some inventory space.

Wait... WHAT?!

Someone's three seconds from becoming the next Ahlah. And we all know where he ended up

Read everything before you post.

[Tempyst]

Orson do you even read the whole thread before you start arguing?

The BLM vs SCH discussion only started because some1 thinks BLM deserve an update since they are apparently "outnuked" by SCH and I simply pointed out that no LS in their right mind will ever use SCH over BLM simply because SCH can potentially nuke better over time. You are the one who barge in and start your silly argument.

You seriously need to play BRD and RDM. Yigit gomlek reduces song casting time by 10%, big thing! Your sing your song 0.8 second faster and it lands on everyone in your party end of story. RDM AF hat + AF2 body + job traits shorten casting time by 40% and recast by 20%, which allows RDM to land refresh on 4 party members 12 seconds faster than without any fastcast gear (we haven't even included any haste gear). If you think shedding 12 seconds from RDM routine is no big deal, what makes you think Yigit gomlek actually do BRD any good?


Perhaps you should level NIN too. The proposed new job ability allows NIN to recast shadow without getting interrupted, bounce hate with co-tank and save themselve in emergency situation. THF and melee/THF will be able to SATA on NIN more reliably. It has huge implication in both exp party and endgame situation. Unless the recast is ridiculously long it's definitely going to be more than just a "new toy".

I have said it many times, SE only introduce adjustment when they believe there are things to fix. BRD is already in high demand and SE still give them Pianissimo and it actually improves the gameplay and make the job more efficient, I have no doubt they will go back to change BRD again if ES elegy and gear/skill sof cap are brought to their attention. If ppl can think of a good reason to change BLMs I am sure SE will consider it, but saying that BLM deserve an update simply because it hasn't got one in a long time is not going to interest SE.


Relic weapons are pure melee weapons, it's the best melee staff you can get in this game. If you want to argue about usefulness at least use mythic weapon vs HQ elemental staves.
Mandau will still stand out if SE adds a dagger which has the exact same base damage and delay as Mandau - the occasional 3 times damage + Mercy stroke are what make it the best dagger in this game. Gjallarhorn is practically no difference from any other +2 song instrument. If SE adds a +2 ballad instrument the only reason to get Gjallarhorn is to save youself some inventory space.


Read everything before you post.

"Read the thread" is the new "nuh uh"

and baseless, speculative arguing is the worst kind of arguing. PLD will be the new lol tank when NIN gets invincible on a 20 second timer. Just like Gjallarhorn will be when they add another +2 ballad instrument.

[The Blackrose]

Read everything before you post.

Wow, not only did I call what you were going to say, but I should have taken a look at the IPs beforehand just to make sure! Hello Ahlah!

Say goodnight!

[orson]

Orson do you even read the whole thread before you start arguing?

The BLM vs SCH discussion only started because some1 thinks BLM deserve an update since they are apparently "outnuked" by SCH and I simply pointed out that no LS in their right mind will ever use SCH over BLM simply because SCH can potentially nuke better over time. You are the one who barge in and start your silly argument.

Yes I did read the thread.

I responded to the Sch vs Blm thing because you were unconvinced of the fact that Sch can out nuke Blm. You did not simply point something out. You in a condescending remark saying "Anyone who actually believes SCH is a better nuker than BLM should get their head examined." Nah, you were just pointing out how he was mistaken and you thought him to be incorrect... ya congratulations on not coming off as dick! <,< You're the one that apparently has a hard to time following the thread if you didn't remember that.

You seriously need to play BRD and RDM. Yigit gomlek reduces song casting time by 10%, big thing! Your sing your song 0.8 second faster and it lands on everyone in your party end of story. RDM AF hat + AF2 body + job traits shorten casting time by 40% and recast by 20%, which allows RDM to land refresh on 4 party members 12 seconds faster than without any fastcast gear (we haven't even included any haste gear). If you think shedding 12 seconds from RDM routine is no big deal, what makes you think Yigit gomlek actually do BRD any good?

So you're comparing Fast Cast Traits + easy to get Hat + fairly rare Body to 1 piece of Bard gear? Ya ok, because that's totally what I was saying. I don't think you can grasp the stupidity behind your incredible ability to misconstrue any semblance of the point I was making. I'm done I'm sick and tired of you saying fast cast/-song casting/haste gear is useless for Brd. Brd can achieve -31% off song casting time but it's pointless according to you doesn't nearly have the impact as it does for Rdm. Apparently you wouldn't ever consider the situation you'd maybe song marches on melees, ballads on mages, and minuet/prelude the Rng with Pianissimo saving you a total of almost 15 seconds and that's not even if you were actually dropping to the next party in alliance. Ya really Rdm IS SO MUCH MORE affected by their fast cast gear!! ffs... I'm so sick of your princess attitude.

Perhaps you should level NIN too. The proposed new job ability allows NIN to recast shadow without getting interrupted, bounce hate with co-tank and save themselve in emergency situation. THF and melee/THF will be able to SATA on NIN more reliably. It has huge implication in both exp party and endgame situation. Unless the recast is ridiculously long it's definitely going to be more than just a "new toy".

I have said it many times, SE only introduce adjustment when they believe there are things to fix. BRD is already in high demand and SE still give them Pianissimo and it actually improves the gameplay and make the job more efficient, I have no doubt they will go back to change BRD again if ES elegy and gear/skill sof cap are brought to their attention. If ppl can think of a good reason to change BLMs I am sure SE will consider it, but saying that BLM deserve an update simply because it hasn't got one in a long time is not going to interest SE.

Perhaps you should do some reading or talk to competent people who actually play the jobs you're talking about. Maybe I am a 75 Nin how the fuck would you know? Well no, I'm not but I have leveled enough to understand how the job works and I plenty of people who have leveled it around me to see how the job works. The new ability described would pretty much be a new toy not changing anything significant.

If you're a Nin past the level where you have Ut:Ni, slow, elegy, and haste you suck incredibly badly if you can't take a couple hits or can't get your shadows back up solo tanking. As for SATA? Really? Who uses that? For anyone in exp/merits but Thf it's complete fail. It's also basically been proven that post assassin Thfs are pretty much better off just splitting SA/TA/WS for damage. What level do you really do you think Nin will get this ability? Once you're at 75 a tank should not need a TA to hold hate. The only reason TA really should be needed in endgame is maybe for a job like Sam to personally avoid pulling hate on a HNM by passing a tank's VE/CE totals by spiking over with a WS.

Lekotas and I both brought up why Blm is in need of update. I hate even bringing it up since Kaeko wanted to stay completely out of this but even he has said in his blog Blm could use some update love. Again though I'm getting back into that argument you can just go back and read what I said if you can't recall.

Relic weapons are pure melee weapons, it's the best melee staff you can get in this game. If you want to argue about usefulness at least use mythic weapon vs HQ elemental staves.
Mandau will still stand out if SE adds a dagger which has the exact same base damage and delay as Mandau - the occasional 3 times damage + Mercy stroke are what make it the best dagger in this game. Gjallarhorn is practically no difference from any other +2 song instrument. If SE adds a +2 ballad instrument the only reason to get Gjallarhorn is to save youself some inventory space.

No one was arguing the usefulness of relics except you because everyone knows that claustrum is fucking useless and that Mandau/Excalibur aren't going to help a Rdm perform better in an alliance. You're just trying to safeface at this point.

Read everything before you post.

You really should follow your own advice. Though I'm beginning to think it's more a reading comprehension problem since people keep spelling stuff out in crayon and you're still missing their point. Anyways I'm sick and tired of talking to you, please feel free to continue whining about how hard Brd has it.

[isladar]

Wow, not only did I call what you were going to say, but I should have taken a look at the IPs beforehand just to make sure! Hello Ahlah!

Say goodnight!

Begat children upon me, no homo.

[Spider-Dan]

Just a small note:

Do not allow nerf-proponents to continue to sell the canard that "gear doesn't make any difference on BRD". Instruments make more of a difference than almost any other gear on any other buff for any other job.

The real complaint that they are making is that instruments are too cheap and easy to get. The problem is that that's a rather transparent appeal to whitebox (or rather, bluebox) syndrome; status over performance.

[Lekotas]

@ Ahlah

My argument isn't Sch is a better job to have in Endgame its the Fact it can over time on a single Target, it will out Nuke a BLM. Theres tons of scenarios where a blm is more effective. JoL being one of them, or even Kirin since its int is so high that most Scholars can't even get enough dInt to land helixes. I'm simply saying that BLM needs an update much like WHM got to seperate itself from Scholar. It still has its role and its place, thats kinda why I leveled it rather than Scholar. I mean we have 22/25 people with 75 BLM in my LS now <.<.

I like the idea of a tiered Elegy/threnody/Requiem based on CHR. I still don't see the big deal of dboxing bards. Most of the dboxed bards I see have better gear than half of the non-endgame bards touting around osodes like its worth an equipment slot, but I also get it. I've spent alot of time gearing my bard, and I would Q.Q if I see someone with a crappy ass geared bard doing my job while being dboxed <.<

Eitherway, I just thought I'd point out that BLM need s a update moreso than BRD.

[BRP]

Just a small note:

What people are REALLY are complaining about is that attributes don't effect BRD as well as it probably should. Gear is just one of the main sources of that. Sure instruments work just fine in that respect. So do catch-all kind of stat increases me like Fast Cast. But with BRD SE has basically cornered themselves. I can compare it to Summoner though the situation is by far less severe for the BRD.