Bard makeover due?

[Kaeko]

Wait, C&O = Ahlah?

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/73597...tanking-2.html

That would explain this topic where I argued with C&O for about 2 pages. I was posting really seriously to try to convince him too... Guess I was trolled hard. He also told me he was a practicing doctor and tried to pull a really bad Statin argument on me and I took it to PM but he never replied.

I feel really stupid right now for getting trolled lol

[The Blackrose]

Wait, C&O = Ahlah?

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/73597...tanking-2.html

That would explain this topic where I argued with C&O for about 2 pages. I was posting really seriously to try to convince him too... Guess I was trolled hard. He also told me he was a practicing doctor and tried to pull a really bad Statin argument on me and I took it to PM but he never replied.

I feel really stupid right now for getting trolled lol

Yeah, the arguments and his style looked familiar so I took a look at his join date, which was conveniently the last day Ahlah had any sort of activity on the forums. One IP check later and I had a couple of 4 octet match as well as a good number of 3 octet matches.

[Yugl]

Just a small note:

Do not allow nerf-proponents to continue to sell the canard that "gear doesn't make any difference on BRD". Instruments make more of a difference than almost any other gear on any other buff for any other job.

The real complaint that they are making is that instruments are too cheap and easy to get. The problem is that that's a rather transparent appeal to whitebox (or rather, bluebox) syndrome; status over performance.

I'm convinced most of those people are either stupid (lolAhlah) or bad BRDs. Since reading this thread, I've been watching our BRDs perform at events and I can tell you it's easy to differentiate between BRDs at full performance (Gear and Action) and those who are fresh at 75. Dual boxing isn't a big deal since you can dual box any class (I had someone Dual box PLD for Omega and it worked out fine). The only reason it isn't as common for melee is because either that's not what the group lacks or dual boxing melee can have negative consequences (Aka hitting a slept mob in Dynamis when auto-target is on). Single pieces of gear for melee tend not to have significant impacts on DMG if you're upgrading from a respectable set (Foragers to Cuchulain, who can tell?!).

What people are REALLY are complaining about is that attributes don't effect BRD as well as it probably should. Gear is just one of the main sources of that. Sure instruments work just fine in that respect. So do catch-all kind of stat increases me like Fast Cast. But with BRD SE has basically cornered themselves. I can compare it to Summoner though the situation is by far less severe for the BRD.

So the argument is that attributes don't affect BRD as much as they should. I'll give three counterpoints to that argument. First, BRD only has three sets of songs that check against enemies. Second, the rest of the songs are enhancing skills casted on others, and in general, enhancing skills on PT members tend to have bad scaling. Third, like other classes with wanted enhancing skills, BRD gear aims towards perfecting other roles.

First point: The most noticeable spells are those against the enemy. The log does not say X Player hit for Y DMG, but would have hit for R DMG without minuet. It doesn't show X player is receiving Y MP due to ballad. It simply shows the result of calculations against the enemy. The only songs that BRD have, which are noticeable checks against the enemy are Requiem and Elegy. Threnodies maybe, but for the most part, they're skill up songs (Unless someone gives a personal request).

Second point: Look at SCH, RDM, and COR since they have enhancing capabilities for other PT members. For SCH, SS, Enspells, and Phalanx are the primary enhancing spells. Enhancing magic reaches 309 at max (According to wiki) and with just AF (The bare minimum) 272. SS is the only one of these spells that has a noticeable difference. Enspell has a noticeable difference of 2 DMG. Phalanx has a noticeable difference of 3 DMG. Yes, the difference between a fully geared/merited SCH is noticeable compared to that of a SCH with AF legs. RDM follows the same code as SCH (Doesn't even have AoE SS or Enspells, so that point is gone) and their Haste/Refresh is only affected by haste and fast cast. Neither actually need reduced timers beyond native traits/AF. COR can't affect their rolls aside from their one piece of gear. In general, scaling for most enhancing situations is either bad (Not just for BRD) or non-existent.

Third point: If we assume your argument is true, and assume that other classes are greatly affected by gear (Have to assume the second in order to justify a BRD specific nerf instead of a general enhancing magic nerf), then why is the range of disparity greater for other classes? For melee, BLM, and tanks, it's because their stats check against another monster. However, in similar circumstances (Elegy and Requiem), gear will play a noticeable role. I've mentioned such an example earlier when I alluded to the difference between a well geared Taru BRD and a lesser geared Elvaan BRD. For healers, it's unnoticeable until they say "LETS STOP I NEED MP!". No one really says "Wow you cure for 20 more HP on Cure III with that Nobles Tunic". Now that the other classes have been taken care of, lets look at the three classes I mentioned in the second point. For SCH, disparity occurs not because of differences in enhancing magic potency (A VERY noticeable one as shown earlier right?), but because bad SCHs will meet constant resists and good ones will meet less resists. Good SCHs won't continuously run out of MP, and the lesser SCHs probably will. In other words, it's not enhancing, but rather other roles that make elite SCHs distinguishable from other ones. RDM disparity occurs for the same reason disparity occurs between healers. Quite frankly, this disparity is very rare and tends to show up only in MP intensive situations (Solo). Consequently, there is a barrage of AF RDMs seeking in Aht Urghan. Again, not enhancing, but rather other roles create this disparity. COR disparity appears through damage (Checks against monsters). Once again, enhancing capabilities between elite and fresh 75 CORs are virtually unnoticeable, but the difference in their damage is noticeable. In all these examples, it's non-enhancing roles that allow for distinction between elite and lesser classes. Now comes the question. Can this apply to BRD as well? Certainly. As mentioned by a pro-nerf poster earlier, gear for BRD is centered around other aspects such as DMG% gear/MND gear/Cure potency. In a situation where the BRD is capable of showing off his potential to actively cure while maintaining buffs (Remember, healers are unnoticeable until they "Forget" something or run out of MP), his gear will play an important part. However, such situations are less likely to occur since in order to compare BRD1 v BRD2 based on support roles, you would need a situation in which the healer is out of MP and a situation in which BRD1 or BRD2 runs out of MP (Or simply does not cure). As a result, two factors stopping BRD from perceived disparity are their strength in non-enhancing roles and the opportunities in which they have the chance to "prove themselves". Neither of these call for a BRD nerf.

[Julian]

The only songs that BRD have, which are noticeable checks against the enemy are Requiem and Elegy. Threnodies maybe, but for the most part, they're skill up songs (Unless someone gives a personal request).

I lol'd. Requiem is such a better song than Threnody. I mean, FUCK YEAH DOT DAMAGE! Who the hell wants to reduce resist rates for blms and other jobs? A little DOT spell is so much fucking better.

Secondly, do you know why so many really good BLM's leveled SCH? Have you actually seen a capable scholar in action? I'm going to go with no, because if you did, you'd see exactly how much better they are than BLM at soloing. BLM can AM2 3-4 times generally and be out of MP. and have done 4k DMG. For the same amount of MP(consider full sublimation tank). A SCH can blizz IV for twice that much damage assuming no resists.

Are you seriously trying to argue about MP efficiency, and then in your example use AM2s? Really?

Also, what's with this "BRD gear can improve the job, but no one else will notice, only the bard" argument? This is true for every fucking job, on any piece of gear that isn't "uber/broken/etc" (ie: elemental staves, refresh pieces, aegis, gjallarhorn, etc)

Omg, do you notice how all of my fast cast gear lets me cast all my refreshes and hastes back to back? Omg, you notice how all my mnd gear makes slow like a few percent more potent? Omg, you see how my WS did 30 more damage now?

[BRP]

First, BRD only has three sets of songs that check against enemies...
First point: The most noticeable spells are those against the enemy.

This isn't a counterargument. It could even be a supporting argument.

The log does not say X Player hit for Y DMG, but would have hit for R DMG without minuet. It doesn't show X player is receiving Y MP due to ballad. It simply shows the result of calculations against the enemy.

I have lost sight of your purpose with this whole part here. This could only be comparing a BRD vs no BRD(no minuet, no ballad.)

In general, scaling for most enhancing situations is either bad (Not just for BRD) or non-existent.

And yet: 1) In comparison these jobs have much more room for attribute development. 2) These jobs are not nearly as boring/simple when functioning in their traditional role. 3) These jobs don't break the game.

The whole third point was a mess. I skimmed it. Still don't feel like answering completely to it. I'll just say up to the point I lost interest you seem to be admitting that even when not doing offensive actions, support jobs still have more checks than BRD. I might be off, but you'll need to reshape that wall of text before you get a complete answer out of me.

[Asmoranomar]

Brds hit what they need for debuff gear easier than other mage jobs and their buffs aren't overly affected by gear this is a negative why?

I never said this was a negative, I'm actually one of the ones who does not find BRD 'Boring'. I think people coming up with these silly ideas of adding guitar hero element to BRD need to be shot in the face. But despite all the silly things - I completely understand where this is coming from. BRD lacks any type of compare/contrast/competitive/etc things other jobs have in relation to their main job/role. This is something that cannot be denied - That is how it is. All BRD's are, for the most part, equal.

Once you realize this is true, you'll start to understand the source of the complaints. Some of the 'solutions' to this 'boredom' have been really dumb, but that doesn't mean there's not some sort of underlying issue - even if its a small one.

I don't think there should be a nerf. However, I do think there needs to be some sort of element of skill involved - both personal and gear/abilities. So I'm not against the ideas for adding new spells, abilities, and other misc content related to the game.

For the most part, these are genuine players who are looking for some sort of satisfaction from a job/role they enjoy, and to possibly stand out a little. There's no reason to deny them this, especially when it's so easy to compare them to other people who level the job to 'just get merits.'

To the ones against adjusting BRD: Don't be so harsh. In contrast to other jobs, BRD has been pretty stale in regards to updates (both gear and job adjustment/additions). I think pianissimo was pretty much our first, and last 'major adjustment' since it came out. While there's always that worry about 'breaking' an already powerful job, I really don't think its anyone's intentions to do so. Just like any other job, we just want to know what plans SE has for us in the future. Oh...and ignore the silly guitar hero requests.

To the ones for BRD adjustments: Stop being lazy. There is plenty to do as BRD. The job is only exciting as you make it out to be. If your ever bored with your job, your playing the wrong way - that goes for ALL jobs. Realize that all jobs hit a effort/reward barrier - BRD just hits it sooner. BRD is not a job of big numbers, nor landing rates - so focus on the small personal victories instead. If your too passive supportive, be more active - either by taking on secondary roles, such as healing, or by offensive crowd control. Be more flexible (even with subjobs) in specific scenarios - out of all jobs, I think BRD is the most unique in how vastly different our roles can be from one to the next.

To the Non-BRD's: Please take a better effort to notice when your BRD is going beyond the traditional 'buff, buff, afk 2 mins' role. We know our minuets rock, we know our marches are awesome, we know our ballads are missed - but if that's all you really care about, then that's all you'll get. Give us a reason to improve ourselves, even if it's a marginal difference. Let us know that, while every BRD is piratically the same, there's a reason "You are better than the rest, and glad to have you as part of our group."

and just for the wtf factor - cause everyone has one: I hate pianissimo. It slows you down - if your too fast, your songs don't work right. It's reuse timer also guarantees that, no matter how much fast cast or song spell casting gear you have, you'll always wait 15 seconds before casting again. But the worst of it all - It took what little skill was left in the job and threw it out the window. Despite this, I try to use it often as I can in unique ways - It's definitely not the worst thing added to the game, but for what it does and how it performs - I wish it was better.

[Malacite]

This is why I try to hide the fact that I have 75 BRD as much as possible.

I don't give a rat's ass how effective it is in merit parties, I hate the fucking job and leveled it for personal reasons. Thankfully Dynacore is pretty good about letting me come as SAM fairly often ^^ (I don't mind being BRD here and there but my sky LS saw me more as a tool than a human being . _ . )

Here's a suggestion SE: For the love of Christ default all songs to at least 4-5 minutes duration. I don't care if this screws with Troubadour or Nightingale, refreshing songs constantly is boring and tedious as hell. Phantom Roll lasts for 5, potentially 6:40 so why shaft songs? This would also go a long way towards allowing BRD to contribute to the damage output in parties (and if you think BRD melee sucks in merits think again)

[Yugl]

This isn't a counterargument. It could even be a supporting argument.

Oh and lets see this supporting argument that somehow concludes nerfing BRD is the answer (You do realize that's the side you're vouching for right?).

I have lost sight of your purpose with this whole part here. This could only be comparing a BRD vs no BRD(no minuet, no ballad.)

I'll make it simple for you. A lot of BRD actions are clouded in calculations. Much like Protect and Phalanx, you only see the result of a BRD's actions and never the input that went into making that result. Consequently, much like DD gear, you'll never know exactly what is making you hit for X amount of damage. Moreover, that means you'll never understand the impact of +10 ACC without parsing. If you give me two DDs, one with Foragers and one with Cuchulains, I probably would not be able to figure out which one has better gear (Hint: Cuchulains) without parsing.

Another point I just realized is that BRDs never face off against each other. If two BRDs are in a PT, one will be singing two sets of songs different from the other. How can you compare when they're using two different songs? You can't.

And yet: 1) In comparison these jobs have much more room for attribute development. 2) These jobs are not nearly as boring/simple when functioning in their traditional role. 3) These jobs don't break the game.

1. Lie. BRDs can enhance their skill and songs specifically while other classes have to settle for 1-2 modifiers. Skill Gear/Skill merits/Specific song merits/Specific song gear. Whens the last time I saw "Enhances Phalanx" gear? Never. Only Enhancing SS gear exists and it doesn't even work on PT members. Enspell and Phalanx are only modified through gear and merits (Merits which no one sanely chooses). COR only have a relic hat to enhancing their rolls. In comparison to all three, BRD certainly has the most to enhancing its songs. I didn't think I would need to point this out since it should be obvious.

2. RDM's main role was intended to be a support enfeebler. It changed to healer. Why? Shit doesn't work on anything you want to enfeeble in the first place. Don't tell me it's not boring to sit there and throw enfeebles that resist time after time only to land for a few seconds. COR does its rolls then what? Sits there for the recast? The entire reason RDM and COR have picked up other roles is because *Drum roll!* THEY'RE ORIGINAL ROLE WAS BORING. You must either not be a BRD or be a lousy BRD if you're going to sit there and lie about how BRD is a boring role. In Einherjar, constant BRD rotations keep the busy. In merits they're always finding mobs. Any /WHM event they should be healing and removing status ailments. Just because you (Or any such dumbass) think that BRD is simply a sing-and-sit class, that doesn't mean such a play style is maximizing BRD. To me, that's like a RDM that heals, but doesn't haste or refresh or a PLD that doesn't have a cheat cure macro.

3. No RDM solo has not broken the game.

The whole third point was a mess. I skimmed it. Still don't feel like answering completely to it. I'll just say up to the point I lost interest you seem to be admitting that even when not doing offensive actions, support jobs still have more checks than BRD. I might be off, but you'll need to reshape that wall of text before you get a complete answer out of me.

Don't worry about reading it, I don't want to hear your take on this.

[Julian]

BRD lacks any type of compare/contrast/competitive/etc things other jobs have in relation to their main job/role. This is something that cannot be denied - That is how it is. All BRD's are, for the most part, equal.

To the ones for BRD adjustments: Stop being lazy. There is plenty to do as BRD. The job is only exciting as you make it out to be. If your ever bored with your job, your playing the wrong way - that goes for ALL jobs. Realize that all jobs hit a effort/reward barrier - BRD just hits it sooner. BRD is not a job of big numbers, nor landing rates - so focus on the small personal victories instead. If your too passive supportive, be more active - either by taking on secondary roles, such as healing, or by offensive crowd control. Be more flexible (even with subjobs) in specific scenarios - out of all jobs, I think BRD is the most unique in how vastly different our roles can be from one to the next.

wat

Just because effect of songs from one bard to another is static, it doesn't change the fact that just singing songs is only a small part of a bard's job, and how well they handle the rest: pulling, curing, recovering status effect, crowd control, etc, it DOES make one player better at bard than another.

I do realize that on the first quote, you stated "main job/role", but just because a bard's "main job is to sing", I don't believe that to be the main part of a bard's role.

Also, I do not feel that ES+Elegy is too cheap, because by subbing BLM the brd is gimping any other role he may have outside of singing songs, which I believe balances it out.

[Asmoranomar]

wat


Just because effect of songs from one bard to another is static, it doesn't change the fact that just singing songs is only a small part of a bard's job, and how well they handle the rest: pulling, curing, recovering status effect, crowd control, etc, it DOES make one player better at bard than another.

That was my point. Most people don't compare one BRD's skill outside of 'singing songs' to another. You don't see BRD's sitting on the sidelines talking about how good they are at pulling. Nor do you see them measuring themselves up against other BRD's curing abilities. Your trying to throw me in a catch-22, which if...

I do realize that on the first quote, you stated "main job/role", but just because a bard's "main job is to sing", I don't believe that to be the main part of a bard's role.

...was taken seriously by everyone, it would have. Unfortunately, not everyone see's it this way. It's good that you do - but don't forget we are comparing all BRD's across the board, including the ones who think buffs are the only thing that matters, as well as including non-BRDs in the discussion (and lets not forget the multi-boxed BRD's too - its hard to argue piratical skill when there's no one to talk to and the trump card is "yeah, but...I can buff as good as you").

I mean - I've met BRD's that would see all the stuff I do, and look at me and wonder 'why?'. It's not that these BRD's were bad, its just that it seems like some people never think of creative ways to improve themselves unless someone tells them how (lol or fear of sticking their neck out and dying).

Full circle - When I look at the OP and I hear - "Hey guys, we need an update, I'm bored!" - I turn to them and say - "How is that possible? I'm always busy."

It sounds like you've already got the idea - But it's not you I'm trying to convince.

[BRP]

Oh and lets see this supporting argument that somehow concludes nerfing BRD is the answer

It goes deeper than just nerfing BRD, it is changing BRD(so a nerf that doesn't change how BRD is played is worthless to BRDs.) That must include a nerf because BRD right now is perfect/overpowered. If offensive options are the best way to test attributes then that is obviously the direction it needs to go in, even if only a little. BRD by your own account has minimal options here so there is room for change. Changing BRD is my argument.


Everyone has already considered that BRD's songs are both indirect and sometimes invisible to the naked eye. I still don't see why you are bringing that up. What is odd is when you suggest that minor gear improvements are more visible than songs.

As for difficulty in comparing BRDs, you'd obviously to have to compare them at two different times. But I wouldn't think that is necessary. You can figure out how well a BRD buffs only by skill level and fastcast and whatnot. Comparing BRDs is really easy, but finding a lot of difference between them isn't.

In comparison to all three, BRD certainly has the most to enhancing its songs. I didn't think I would need to point this out since it should be obvious.

Well you just said these jobs have more modifiers than just skill, but let us ignore even that. COR needs ranged attack/accuracy(or normal attack/accuracy for sword or dagger) and stuff for Quick Draw, RDM need enfeebling/magic accuracy and even more focus on MND or INT, and blah blah. BRD is pretty one-dimensional and the fact it gets literally x2 skill like no other job only makes this situation even more drastic.

RDM's main role was intended to be a support enfeebler. It changed to healer.

No it is still support and enfeebler(and it might have always been a healer too, same with "nuker".) In some cases it may be ignoring this role to be a healer because the situation doesn't call for support or enfeebling(though I got to wonder why the RDM isn't hasting his melees.) If that is a problem then it lies with the monster, not the job. Because once they step away from that situation, they function as an enfeebler and support with both efficiency and some sort of depth. A BRD could pull sure, but once you take that away from them it becomes quite clear how poorly designed they are. A BRD isn't always going to be pulling. This job is just boring within its own mechanics.

Also COR has always been designed to deal damage. That was their original role. Access to guns and decent skill on several weapons, long duration on their buffs, and a quick damage JA should make that obvious.

RDM solo has not broken the game.

True, but BRD has. We could remedy this by nerfing BRD for the sake of everyone else or we could make BRD a more interesting job in the process. (In either case, the most important thing that needs to be done is to give songs a second or third source)


Also if you weren't interested in what I have to say I got to wonder why you replied to me and why you will mostly likely reply to me again.

[BunkMonk]

Here's a suggestion SE: For the love of Christ default all songs to at least 4-5 minutes duration. I don't care if this screws with Troubadour or Nightingale, refreshing songs constantly is boring and tedious as hell. Phantom Roll lasts for 5, potentially 6:40 so why shaft songs?

I hate to mention this again, as I mentioned it before in this thread and I know someone else did also....

but...

all our our rolls use ONE JA. Phantom Roll. Phantom roll comes with a one minute recast timer. So yes, our buffs last longer, but we don't have the luxury of tossing up 3 songs/rolls back to back. If you could only sing one song per minute, would you still push for the 5 minute duration?


I can't really say anything on the larger arguments of this post, but I can tell you that a party can absolutely tell the difference between a BRD who takes pride in the job, and one who only leveled it because it gets fast merit party invites.

[Malacite]

You also get to shoot a gun and do other nifty things between rolls and your buffs are instant, not counting double-up time.

[BunkMonk]

We're bloody pirates! We weren't made to just sit in the back of a party and remove status effects Level COR if you're feeling left out of all the nifty activities.

And I've had many times where I roll 3 I's in a row, so you damn well should include the time it takes to double-up. BTW, that also comes with a recast timer of 8 seconds.

[Yugl]

It goes deeper than just nerfing BRD, it is changing BRD(so a nerf that doesn't change how BRD is played is worthless to BRDs.) That must include a nerf because BRD right now is perfect/overpowered.

Your argument is contingent on the idea that BRD is a perfect class (Since if something is perfect, the only type of change to occur can only be a nerf). However, BRD is not perfect. The fact that we have BRDs bitching in this thread (And omg! A post about COR roll!) for shorter cast times and greater duration proves exactly that. Hence, change can occur without nerf.

If offensive options are the best way to test attributes then that is obviously the direction it needs to go in, even if only a little. BRD by your own account has minimal options here so there is room for change. Changing BRD is my argument.

I didn't say BRD has minimal room for change liar. I said BRD has very few songs that have stat checks against the enemy.

If "changing BRD" was your argument, then why did you say this earlier:

EDIT: PS: BRD won't be interesting until you nerf it in some specific manner. That's your makeover right there. SE designed BRD to a perfect little package of buffs, and well, how are you going to have fun in a game when you are already perfect? (Which doesn't mean I am calling for its nerfing btw, my solution to "nerf" BRD is just to give other Jobs the ability to give songs)

I don't see how giving other classes the ability to change songs is changing BRD.

Everyone has already considered that BRD's songs are both indirect and sometimes invisible to the naked eye. I still don't see why you are bringing that up. What is odd is when you suggest that minor gear improvements are more visible than songs.

This is why I don't like people who don't take the time to look at what they're responding to. I said that both minor gear adjustments and bard songs are invisible adjustments. I did not say one is more visible than the other.

I'll make it simple for you. A lot of BRD actions are clouded in calculations. Much like Protect and Phalanx, you only see the result of a BRD's actions and never the input that went into making that result. Consequently, much like DD gear, you'll never know exactly what is making you hit for X amount of damage. Moreover, that means you'll never understand the impact of +10 ACC without parsing. If you give me two DDs, one with Foragers and one with Cuchulains, I probably would not be able to figure out which one has better gear (Hint: Cuchulains) without parsing.

Ding-ding? Ringing a bell somewhere? Idiot.

As for difficulty in comparing BRDs, you'd obviously to have to compare them at two different times. But I wouldn't think that is necessary. You can figure out how well a BRD buffs only by skill level and fastcast and whatnot. Comparing BRDs is really easy, but finding a lot of difference between them isn't.

If you say Skill and Fast Cast are means of comparing BRD (Which I disagree with), then it follows you can contrast them on the same qualifications. Hence, by your own disposition, good BRDs are distinguishable from bad BRDs. Case closed.

Well you just said these jobs have more modifiers than just skill, but let us ignore even that.

Of all the spells I mentioned, only Stoneskin had more modifiers than skill. "Lets just ignore that" is your way of subtly admitting you're wrong. Phalanx is pure enhancing magic. Enspells is enhancing magic (Weather/Day aside since you don't use the former and can't control the latter). COR rolls have no modifier.

COR needs ranged attack/accuracy(or normal attack/accuracy for sword or dagger) and stuff for Quick Draw, RDM need enfeebling/magic accuracy and even more focus on MND or INT, and blah blah. BRD is pretty one-dimensional and the fact it gets literally x2 skill like no other job only makes this situation even more drastic.

Hypocrite. You claim there is a dire situation because BRD does not have a secondary role it exceeds in. At the same time, you say BRD is perfect. Are you stupid? The whole point of BRD is to excel in one area (Support) while having minimal significance in others (Healing). The other classes are half-assed support, but in return, find other roles in which they can excel. It's called balance. You sir, belong at SE. Not only can you think and articulate at a compatible level as them, but you also share their insight and knowledge of the game. It's amazing how we find people on this board who know about balance as much as SE. You sir should apply there.

No it is still support and enfeebler(and it might have always been a healer too, same with "nuker".) In some cases it may be ignoring this role to be a healer because the situation doesn't call for support or enfeebling(though I got to wonder why the RDM isn't hasting his melees.) If that is a problem then it lies with the monster, not the job. Because once they step away from that situation, they function as an enfeebler and support with both efficiency and some sort of depth. A BRD could pull sure, but once you take that away from them it becomes quite clear how poorly designed they are. A BRD isn't always going to be pulling. This job is just boring within its own mechanics.

Also COR has always been designed to deal damage. That was their original role. Access to guns and decent skill on several weapons, long duration on their buffs, and a quick damage JA should make that obvious.

COR was meant to support before DD. You do realize QD enhances debuffs on the mob/sleeps/dispels right? You do realize that every other JA COR has available is for rolls right? The fact that you claimed their durations are greater for the purpose of meleeing only proves my point that their support role comes first. A WHM has higher club skill than a COR's marksmanship. Are they DD too? A RDM has higher sword skill than a COR's marksmanship. Are they DD too?

True, but BRD has.

W00SH.

We could remedy this by nerfing BRD for the sake of everyone else or we could make BRD a more interesting job in the process. (In either case, the most important thing that needs to be done is to give songs a second or third source)

I have an idea to fix SAM guys. Lets give MNK and DRG Tachi:Gekko! And Meditate! And Hasso! Or better yet, lets fix PLD by giving NIN Sentinal/Rampart/Cover! That will do it!

Also if you weren't interested in what I have to say I got to wonder why you replied to me and why you will mostly likely reply to me again.

Not interested in the thoughts of someone who wants to respond to something they didn't read. I'm not your high school teacher. Don't think you can BS a post on something you didn't read and expect me not to notice. Your post has been nothing but a fester of lies. I think it's quite clear that I'm dealing with a troll here, so I'll leave you to continue this conversation with yourself.

[BRP]

Yes, yes. A troll. Sure. Let's not go crazy with quotes though. I recently saw how bad that can get.

People are complaining about BRD because it is mostly boring. When I call it perfect I certainly don't mean it in respect to the player having fun. Quite the opposite: BRD comes so neatly packaged that there isn't much room for the player to grow into the job. People dread coming as BRD because every other job is much more fun in comparison. There are always exceptions, as this thread has shown there are few people who enjoy BRD somehow. Usually though, it is because pulling is fun. Keep the ability for BRD to pull and we might make something that works for everyone.

I didn't say BRD has minimal room for change liar.

Ok. So? I wasn't talking about your argument, I was talking about the argument to change BRD. Some of the points you listed were pro- that. lol at "liar" though. So butthurt over a BRD suggestion thread...

I don't see how giving other classes the ability to change songs is changing BRD.

This is because me saying that really has nothing to do with BRD directly. In a previous post(which I don't expect you to read, so whatever) I admitted I personally have more interest in giving BRD competition for their party slot, it has higher priority. Any changes to BRD would be for game balance or their own sake. That right there is just to make the whole game a little more interesting. Consider it off-topic if you must, but it would be hard for that to not change BRD indirectly. It is necessary in that even if you nerfed BRD, without alternatives they will always be considered apart of every option(making it not an option at all.) (Your mocking statement about giving MNK/DRG a SAM WS and so on is ineffectual because MNK already have WSes/tools with similar utility and they don't suffer the problem like spell haste vs march would. None of these jobs need to play like BRD, only replace it. If DNC could drop a March or Minuet, it would still be DNC and not BRD.)

I didn't say you couldn't compare BRDs, but I did say "you wouldn't find a lot of difference." Meaning while we have stats that clearly effect BRD, but they don't do so as drastic as every other job. Even this isn't the problem, but only a symptom.

BRD being a pure support job doesn't excuse them of anything, because it is still next to other jobs that can be both support and fun. But honestly, BRD isn't pure support - it clearly has an underdeveloped portion that focuses on debuffs.

COR was meant to support before DD.

Well, I didn't say one way or the other. I just said that it was clearly meant to deal damage. More so than your typical robe-wearing support anyway. Stuff like this just shows you are too obsessed with calling me an idiot without pin-pointing my exact idiocy. What good is that? You even wooshed yourself thinking I was wooshed by you. Well, I did misread the whole part about the gear/song comparison, so apologies there. I must have skimmed, but now I have to say if it wasn't that why did you even bring it up in the first place? I just automatically assumed you had a point there.

I already see where this is going - you quoting every bit of my post and attacking minor misinterpretations(mostly on your part of course) or saying really silly statements(SE seeing WHM being equally purposed DD as COR.) I've said what I had to say - Let us do this the functional way and have you provide your own argument on why BRD shouldn't be changed and I'll point out why you are wrong.

EDIT: A FESTER OF LIES! I hope SE makes a quest with a name like that.

[Spider-Dan]

Let us do this the functional way and have you provide your own argument on why BRD shouldn't be changed and I'll point out why you are wrong.

Ooh, ooh, can I play?

"Because the job is already too good to merit a positive change and any negative change would dissuade people from playing it."

[BRP]

To that I'd say: If BRD becomes bad enough to be not be required, what is the loss? And why would people stop playing it if it was still good?

Everyone stops playing BRD would be the worst case scenario and an impossible one at that(it couldn't possibly be worst off than BST, PUP, or DNC- and those are still played.) On the other hand, maybe a little more likely best case scenario is that BRD becomes somewhat interesting and picks up the interest of other non-BRDs. I would say the middle ground is that current BRDs have a little more fun while playing it.

[barber2006]

Ooh, ooh, can I play?

"Because the job is already too good to merit a positive change and any negative change would dissuade people from playing it."

If it helps make things dead more efficiently, people WILL play it. Period.

Create a wide gap between AF bard and 'pimped out' brd and people WILL merit/gear it to get the advantages it would give.

[Spider-Dan]

To that I'd say: If BRD becomes bad enough to be not be required, what is the loss?

You don't get it.

Nerfing BRD does not make it any more or less "required." Nerfing BRD just makes it less useful and the functions that BRD provides less available.

For example: many HNM "require" utsusemi to tank. If Squenix quadruples the recast on utsu (and changes nothing else), does that somehow change the mob to no longer require utsu tanking? No; it just means that whatever you were doing before is broken.

And why would people stop playing it if it was still good?

Why did people stop inviting NINs as merit DDs when they are just as "good" (if not better) than they were 2 years ago?

On the other hand, maybe a little more likely best case scenario is that BRD becomes somewhat interesting and picks up the interest of other non-BRDs.

Yes, because players love the concept of added pedantic (but "interesting") micromanagement on the heels of a nerf. I mean, when Squenix added all the distance modifications to make RNG more "interesting," players couldn't get enough of RNG after that, right?