Bard makeover due?

[Spider-Dan]

Create a wide gap between AF bard and 'pimped out' brd and people WILL merit/gear it to get the advantages it would give.

No, they won't. There is already a wide gap between AF RDM and pimped out RDM, and yet there are countless merit-healer-type RDMs that cast exactly 5 spells (refresh, haste, dispel, cure4, and sometimes dia2) and have virtually no RDM-specific merits of note.

Not everyone wants to be a lifer BRD.

[Yugl]

Yes, because players love the concept of added pedantic (but "interesting") micromanagement on the heels of a nerf. I mean, when Squenix added all the distance modifications to make RNG more "interesting," players couldn't get enough of RNG after that, right?

That's actually a very good example of what will happen to BRD since it encompasses everything that people in this thread want from BRD. RNG was "perfect/overpowered". SE nerfed it (And make gear MORE relevant). They added a mini-game of standing distance. Look at the chaos that ensued.

[Kerberoz]

COR was meant to support before DD. You do realize QD enhances debuffs on the mob/sleeps/dispels right? You do realize that every other JA COR has available is for rolls right? The fact that you claimed their durations are greater for the purpose of meleeing only proves my point that their support role comes first. A WHM has higher club skill than a COR's marksmanship. Are they DD too? A RDM has higher sword skill than a COR's marksmanship. Are they DD too?

1. You realize that COR DD in no way hinders COR support, right? Rolls are instant JAs and only take a few seconds per minute to apply. Quick Draw is an instant JA that can be done without interrupting anything. Of course it's support first, but that means nothing outside of semantics, since support only takes up 5% of your playtime.

2. WHM and RDM to sacrifice their primary role to DD. Spells have cast times. DD subs make mages less effective at their main role. COR does not have to sacrifice its primary role (support) in order to DD.

3. Slug Shot/Detonator > club and sword WS. COR has a wide range of DD gear to choose from. Mages have a few token pieces.

4. COR can shoot for TP on dangerous mobs, while WHM or RDM would get raped by aoe.

But proceed making retarded arguments over semantics... apples equal avocados!

[BRP]

Nerfing BRD does not make it any more or less "required." Nerfing BRD just makes it less useful and the functions that BRD provides less available.

BRD will continue to be played if it is at all useful. RNG(the example you bring up later) only stopped being played because people found them easily beaten by melee and that had been why people bothered to put up with the expense of the job(now they still remain useful for being good DD while ranged - like it should be, but of course there is room for fixes there.) I have no good reason to believe people would stop playing BRD if you nerfed them reasonably. You are not convincing me with the idea that legions of non-BRDs will suddenly grow the balls to say "no" to an incredibly useful job. (Also RNG was not perfect. It was only overpowered.)

Though imagine for a moment every job was taken up a tier, including support jobs. Even if BRD is brought down a tier we wouldn't be trapped with impossible challenges. HNMs that "require" BRDs will still be able to be beaten with the same or similar efficiency - only now with more options and set-ups.

Why did people stop inviting NINs as merit DDs when they are just as "good" (if not better) than they were 2 years ago?

2-handers(powered by DD developments) replaced it. But honestly people will still invite NIN when not aiming for the absolute optimal. Is this a comment on my desire to make several sources of songs? Of course we will need to make sure they don't obsolete BRDs, -give BRD new tools and make the other Jobs a source of weaker songs.

Yes, because players love the concept of added pedantic (but "interesting") micromanagement on the heels of a nerf. I mean, when Squenix added all the distance modifications to make RNG more "interesting," players couldn't get enough of RNG after that, right?

RNG nerf was pretty terrible and the newly added mechanic didn't work out well at all. The sweetspot concept is just stupid. If they wanted to make RNG go range, then it should just be a strong flat bonus with distance. Jobs can be nerfed(and changed) more effectively than what they did with RNG.


To comment on your exchange with barber, people go healer on RDM in exp parties because they can without a loss. That is a situation that requires minimal to no enfeebling. No matter how complex and deep we make a job, if the current challenge is easy it will remain easy/simple/boring. That problem would lie on changing what they exp against. (Or you could create new challenges for even greater exp, those that would make more use of a job's options than ever, or both if the previous case prevents you from doing the latter sensibly)

[barber2006]

No, they won't. There is already a wide gap between AF RDM and pimped out RDM, and yet there are countless merit-healer-type RDMs that cast exactly 5 spells (refresh, haste, dispel, cure4, and sometimes dia2) and have virtually no RDM-specific merits of note.

Not everyone wants to be a lifer BRD.

You are talking about one zone of the game.....colibris. Seriously, if people aren't capped on their merits by now they don't even deserve to post. Outside of merits there is a huge difference between vermy cloak rdm and merited/geared rdm.

And if your linkshell doesn't have the tools to convince/recruit 1-2 top tier brds then you don't deserve the mega buffs they bring.

[Spider-Dan]

You are talking about one zone of the game.....colibris.

Because dispel is so crucial against colibri.

Outside of merits there is a huge difference between vermy cloak rdm and merited/geared rdm.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

The point I made is that there is already a huge difference between vanilla RDM and pimped RDM, and yet plenty of vanilla RDMs do not have the urge to merit/gear up RDM, as you claim that BRDs would (if there were more separation).

And if your linkshell doesn't have the tools to convince/recruit 1-2 top tier brds

and make them come on BRD every time forever

[Ezariel]

As an endgame brd I would love to see changes made to the job. But the absolute last thing I would want is to just make me have to do more things so I can sing the same songs repetitively. What they did to whm's is horrible (also 75 here). Changing the game mechanics to require casting more spells, and spam -na's != fun, it just means you have to do more of the same old boring stuff. As a long time rpg player I always saw bard as fighting on the front lines with sword and harp, inspiring his party to new heights (everquest 1&2 bards played very much like this). FFXI is the only game I have ever played where bard sings 2 songs and goes to take a nap, doesn't seem like an inspirational role to me...

[barber2006]

and make them come on BRD every time forever

I see you won't budge. You want your brd buffs but don't want to 'inconvenience' anyone to actually gear/merit (or hell, even PLAY) the job. Let's just give everyone a constant double march/double ballad and make every mob have an automatic elegy then nobody will be 'burdened' with playing brd.


And let's give all players shield mastery, auto refresh x3, and -20% damage so nobody will be 'burdened' with playing pld.

And let's give everyone A+ enfeebling, refresh, and gravity so nobody will be 'burdened' with playing rdm.

And let's give everyone Store TP VII and overwhelm so nobody will be 'burdened' with playing sam.

And let's give everyone blood weapon and a multihit weapon so nobody will be 'burdened' with playing drk.


Guess what? If nobody in your linkshell is willing to level/gear/merit pld then you don't deserve a top flight tank.

If nobody in your linkshell is willing to level/gear/merit rdm then you don't deserve the thousands of extra MP a rdm hat/lowered convert timer give over the course of an evening.

If nobody in your linkshell is willing to level/gear/merit sam then you don't deserve a top flight DD sam.

If nobody in your linkshell is willing to level/gear/merit drk then you don't deserve to zerg down kirin/DL/etc.


But somehow with bard this logic doesn't hold. The response is basically, "Nuh uh, because nobody would play bard if it took gear/merits to make it work well like every other job."

I will put this as plainly as I can......If the 15 melee in your linkshell are not willing to level a mage/support job and gear/merit it to help your linkshell more efficiently farm this game then you are not in a linkshell that deserves to farm this game efficiently. Make 5 merit/gear blm. Make 5 merit/gear rdm. Make 5 merit/gear brd. Swap them out. Reap the benefits.

Basically, stop allowing loser bards to produce winner results.

[noodles355]

I like the idea of making Elegy potency going up wih CHR, and Macc with skill. Or something similar. I put effort into my Brd and I'd like to see that rewarded with being better than a shit brd.

Of course if you're a "pimp brd" then you'll be expected to go that more. Well, if they implemented some of the changes here (higher weapon skill, longer buff durations) and made it viable to melee stuff, then I might want to.

[Yugl]

1. You realize that COR DD in no way hinders COR support, right? Rolls are instant JAs and only take a few seconds per minute to apply. Quick Draw is an instant JA that can be done without interrupting anything. Of course it's support first, but that means nothing outside of semantics, since support only takes up 5% of your playtime.

Hey dumbass, you do realize the post I was responding to said "DD was their original role" right? Oh wait I guess not since you're calling it a semantics argument then agreeing with my point. I guess that makes you... an idiot?

Instead of jumping in like a douche, try looking at what's going on. You're like the moron who jumps in a discussion about bears in the arctic and says "No you moron! Most bears are black not white!". Try looking at what you respond to before you post. I know this may be difficult since knowing you, it's difficult to resist spamming posts, but try anyways. Just so you know, this was his original post:

Also COR has always been designed to deal damage. That was their original role.

2. WHM and RDM to sacrifice their primary role to DD. Spells have cast times. DD subs make mages less effective at their main role. COR does not have to sacrifice its primary role (support) in order to DD.

His argument was that because COR has access to higher skill weapons, that it is primarily a DD. No one is arguing against COR doing DD or comparing it to RDM DD (Of course, you jumped in without reading and made yourself look stupid). The reference to WHM and RDM was simply to show how stupid it is to use such logic to determine whether a class's primary role is DD or not because classes that have equal skill are not DD.

But proceed making retarded arguments over semantics... apples equal avocados!

And you can continue to jump into arguments without knowing what's being discussed. How fun with that dipshit.

@ Barber: What Spider-dan says is true. I don't know if you're familiar with the arguments going on, but here's the run down. Pro-Nerf people typically want BRD nerfed in order to make top-notch gear better than NQ BRD gear. Their reasoning for this is that HQ BRDs should stand out from NQ BRDs. Some even want to modify the way in which BRD is played while other Pro-Nerf people wanted *other* classes to be able to do songs (BRP's argument). Spider-dan's argument is that if you do this, it has consequences on LSs. His RNG example is more relevant than any of the examples you have posted. The RNG update was a nerf. The RNG update did make RNG more complex. The RNG update severely distinguished between good RNGs and bad RNGs. You're right that no one will completely stop playing BRD (He only exaggerated this point because in some cases, it will occur). However, it burdens the leader and the LS members.

It burdens the LS members who only played BRD to support the LS and now have to start using points to lot gear in order to be "efficient" (And really, the fact that people who have BRD don't lot items is the main reason BRDs are so decked out. It's not as if the line for BRD relic can event compare to that of RDM relic). It also burdens the members because those who have better gear will be unlikely to play DD once in a while due to the necessity of their BRD. Contrary to popular opinion, BRD is not a sing-and-sit class. The rare situations in which this occurs is when the BRD is not able to land elegy reliably (And subs BLM). Otherwise, they always have a role. Salvage, they cure and event find mobs. Nyzul, is the same deal. Einherjar they keep a BRD rotation which moves them from one side of the room to the other. Omega, they run back and forth from his AoE range to buff the tanks and healers (Talking situations of 10 or less members). In Dynamis, it's pretty much the same as Salvage and Nyzul. In merits, they sing and find mobs. In almost any non-HNM situation, a BRD can find something to do. The fact that they don't either means they're lazy or their main cure power is overly sufficient. For all you lazy BRDs out there, come join a LS of mine and I'll give you something to do. Trust me, most BRDs in my Einherjar LS threaten to quit with the amount of responsibilities I give them, and you're sitting here complaining about how lazy the class *can* be. Furthermore, I do not agree with the assertion that gear makes no difference. I've seen what an HQ and NQ BRD can do (I have both in my Apollyon LS). I can easily distinguish between them based on Elegy landing percent. I can easily distinguish between them based on their "hussle". BRD is probably one of the few classes where skill is on equal terms with gear, so yes, gear is less significant to an extent, but that means people need to be more active than reactive BRDs.

It burdens the leaders because it limits their options. First, a general nerf would limit which BRDs in their LS will be effective. Then it limits the amount of opportunities these effective BRDs have to play a non-BRD role. You then have a group of BRDs complaining about how they have much more work for the same rewards (We already see this in XP). A Nerf would also clash with some of the strategies currently employed (BRD Rotation in Einherjar).

This whole notion of "You don't deserve X because of Y" logic does not hold. It's foolish to suspect that all LS leaders have the power to control their members in a fashion that you demand. "Hey you five guys, level BRD" or "You three must level BLM or I'll kick you" are signs of a terrible leader. The only ones capable of taking such dispositions are already successful LSs or LS with lots of members. You aren't thinking about LSs that do as much as they can with as little as they can. You aren't thinking about LSs that already have established members and would need to recruit to make up for such a nerf. You aren't think about the externalities. Unlike with RNG, there is no one to make up for nerfed BRDs, but better BRDs. It's an elitist argument and quite frankly, it's a selfish one once you consider that the reason BRDs are so easily pimped is because there is no competition for gear. If you had half the LS after the same gear as your BRD (As is the case with melees, BLM, and RDMs), then it wouldn't be easy to gear BRD as it is now. It's not simply an argument of BRD gear not scaling properly because no one has proven such a point. They say March merits are unnoticeable, yet so is 15 sec off Jump. They say HQ BRD gear barely affects songs when most enhancement magics (SS is not "most") are barely scale in the first place (Note: HQ SCH v NQ SCH is 3 DMG off using Phalanx and 2 DMG more for enspells).

The fact is that if they wanted HQ BRD more noticeable, they should add more offensive songs (Which is NOT a nerf, but an update!). It would allow for more situations in which gear is checked against the mob. Offensive spells resisting are more noticeable than 10 additional ACC towards Madrigal. Nerfing BRD and making it more complex would burden LSs by placing the same strains as the RNG nerf (Only without a successor). Chaos ensues and quite frankly, there are better updates SE could be working on (Like a Coma virus for when they shut down FFXI).

Edit: I like how dipshit BRP tries to cover his ass by saying "They're both its original roles". It's funny, because it doesn't work in this case since COR has NO other roles than support and DD. Guess he's kind of screwed there huh?

[BRP]

Hey dumbass, you do realize the post I was responding to said "DD was their original role" right?

The post you were replying to never said they weren't support. That too was their original role. They have two roles. Three if you weigh Quick Draw heavy enough to call them enfeeblers. (Given they are being compared to BRD, the intent should be obvious.)

Must you focus on such petty issues? I am starting to think you have nothing worthwhile to say.

[Spider-Dan]

I see you won't budge. You want your brd buffs but don't want to 'inconvenience' anyone to actually gear/merit (or hell, even PLAY) the job.

It would be more accurate to say that your arguments for "fixing" the perfectly functional status quo solely for the sake of stroking the egos of the-shiniest-princesses-in-all-the-land is unconvincing.

Your attempts to compare BRD with non-support jobs falls flat once again, for a reason I've already stated multiple times: support jobs need more incentive than primary mover jobs.

But somehow with bard this logic doesn't hold. The response is basically, "Nuh uh, because nobody would play bard if it took gear/merits to make it work well like every other job."

Let me put this question as simply as possible. Is the goal of this nerf to:

a) increase the number of players using BRD
b) decrease the number of players using BRD
c) leave the number of players using BRD unaffected

a) is delusional; nerfs do not increase population. c) is pointless; why bother breaking something that's fine right now just to stay in place? That leaves b), which is just idiotic. If the core of your argument is that there are too many BRDs, have fun convincing anyone that having "too much support" is a problem that needs to be fixed.

[BRP]

d) Make BRD more enjoyable for those already playing it.

EDIT: Which would also mean people wouldn't mind switching to it.

[barber2006]

SD...you should really work for SE. Their primary reason for buffs/nerfs is based on the number of people playing a job.

Nobody played COR they buffed the hell out of it. (didn't need it)
Nobody played SCH they buffed the hell out of it (although it needed it)
More Nin than pld, they buffed the hell out of pld (didn't need it)
Nobody played 2h dd they buffed the hell out of it (too much so)


Everyone and their momma has blm leveled, they let it sit idle for 6 years (needs buff)
Everyone and their momma had Nin leveled, they let it sit idle for 6 years (needs buff to at least one area)
Everyone and their momma has rdm leveled, they get one composure update and no other changes



Seriously, refusing to advance a job and move the game forward based primarily on how popular a job is, well, thats just dumb. No other way of saying it.

[Spider-Dan]

SD...you should really work for SE. Their primary reason for buffs/nerfs is based on the number of people playing a job.

I'm forced to conclude that your argument is... there are too many BRD players? Otherwise your entire post is completely nonsensical (not to mention irrelevant).

So let's go ahead and presume that this nerf is supposed to be a population adjustment. At that point, I would feel compelled to point out that population-oriented buffs/nerfs are generally designed to, you know, redistribute the population. Who, exactly, will be replacing these lost BRDs?

At no point have you suggested any sort of actual complementary adjustment that makes other jobs more capable of picking up the slack (and no, vague inanities like "maybe other jobs should have songs too" are not plans for action). In fact, no nerf proponents in this thread have even remotely addressed potentially fixing the "problem" by moving the population from BRD to another support job. Quite the opposite; every time someone says, "Um, COR already has all the changes you are requesting for BRD," you (plural) quickly shove your fingers in your ears and start shouting.

So let's put it on the table: if these nerfs are going to pare down the BRD population, who is supposed to replace them? And if we know who is going to backfill the losses, why can't we just buff those jobs instead of unnecessarily nerfing BRD?

[Ezariel]

The people who say the sing and sit bards are any different than the others are delusional imo. In a halfway decent ls this is what you will see :

whm starts casting cure V on playerx
rdm starts casting cure IV on playerx
brd starts casting Cure III on playerx

whm heals playerx for 700 hp
rdm heals playerx for 400 hp
brd heals playerx for 10 hp

or

Brd starts casting paralyna on playerx
Whm casts Esuna
Brd's paralyna has no effect.....

or

Brd casts dia II on mob
Rdm cast dia III on mob...

Yeah our support role is so needed...

Fact of the matter is, there are also 10 other mages also sitting around desperately looking for some way to prove that they are useful so they can lot on gear for the melee jobs they really enjoy playing....

As for elegy landing, well a terra's staff is pretty much all you need to land it on anything that isn't going to resist the hell out of it anyway or is immune. And for the cases where you can't land without /blm, elemental seal is more than enough and you could go naked and still do just as good as any other /blm bard.

We really need some other way to interact with encounters instead of just making everyone else look good.

[BRP]

(and no, vague inanities like "maybe other jobs should have songs too" are not plans for action)

I don't compute... we haven't really started with the specifics on BRD either. SMN and DNC would be the best sources though. SMN - a new set of Ward BPs. DNC - Jigs II? Requires TP? Whatever. I shouldn't have to go into detail.

"Um, COR already has all the changes you are requesting for BRD,"

I don't see the point. COR is a better designed job. BRDs should strive to be as good, though different. It is not like this is a unique case. Weak DD X would love the bonuses given to DD Y, though this is less the case now than ever. Imagine for a moment if the 2-hand bonuses were only applied to SAM. We'd be having a similar thread about DRG or Gaxe WAR or DRK asking for the same thing.

why can't we just buff those jobs instead of unnecessarily nerfing BRD?

To repeat yet again: Any changes to BRD would be for game balance or their own sake. Other jobs getting buffed is more important no doubt. However, if BRD is breaking the game that should be resolved. And if BRD is boring to the point of it being problematic(obviously the case - almost one wants to be them), then they should probably see some innovation.

[barber2006]

I'm forced to conclude that your argument is... there are too many BRD players? Otherwise your entire post is completely nonsensical (not to mention irrelevant).

So let's go ahead and presume that this nerf is supposed to be a population adjustment. At that point, I would feel compelled to point out that population-oriented buffs/nerfs are generally designed to, you know, redistribute the population. Who, exactly, will be replacing these lost BRDs?

At no point have you suggested any sort of actual complementary adjustment that makes other jobs more capable of picking up the slack (and no, vague inanities like "maybe other jobs should have songs too" are not plans for action). In fact, no nerf proponents in this thread have even remotely addressed potentially fixing the "problem" by moving the population from BRD to another support job. Quite the opposite; every time someone says, "Um, COR already has all the changes you are requesting for BRD," you (plural) quickly shove your fingers in your ears and start shouting.

So let's put it on the table: if these nerfs are going to pare down the BRD population, who is supposed to replace them? And if we know who is going to backfill the losses, why can't we just buff those jobs instead of unnecessarily nerfing BRD?

Your response to everything is "Nobody will play it. Nobody will play it. Nobody will play it."

And as I have said that is just not true. You cannot make that statement true. If there is an advantage to gearing/meriting bard people will do it. Career bards will excel. Merit whore bards will have to gear/merit brd or they will be less effective against anything higher than level 81.

Just like the bst who levels rdm and drk so he can get his ebody.
Just like the drg who comes to einherjar as sch so he can get his valk fork.
Just like the <insert job here> who comes to <insert event here> as <insert needed job here> because it is more efficient because they want <insert item here>.

If you think that the entirety of endgame isn't spent making small sacrifices for the cause of efficiency then we must not be playing the same game. People WILL gear/merit brd if they need to in order to get what they want.

[Spider-Dan]

I don't compute... we haven't really started with the specifics on BRD either. SMN and DNC would be the best sources though. SMN - a new set of Ward BPs. DNC - Jigs II? Requires TP? Whatever. I shouldn't have to go into detail.

Ready, fire, aim?

I don't see the point. COR is a better designed job. BRDs should strive to be as good, though different.

BRD is already arguably better and definitely different.

Most of the changes in this thread would serve to:

a) make BRD worse (the purpose of a nerf)
b) make BRD "less different" than COR

Lose-lose.

However, if BRD is breaking the game that should be resolved. And if BRD is boring to the point of it being problematic(obviously the case - almost one wants to be them), then they should probably see some innovation.

Some intellectual honesty, please?

The real issue is neither BRD's overpoweredness nor BRD's boringness. Consider that every nerf proponent in this thread would cry bloody tears at a universal BRD nerf (that affects all BRDs equally), and they would also reject any sort of "interesting" micromanaging (e.g. adding distance-based sweetspots to songs) if they, too, affected all BRDs equally.

No, the point of contention here is allowing the whitebox BRD to be just a little shinier than the everyday prole BRD. It is the fundamental principle behind the entire discussion. Pretending like you give a damn about BRD's balance (relative to other jobs) fools no one.

[Spider-Dan]

And as I have said that is just not true. You cannot make that statement true. If there is an advantage to gearing/meriting bard people will do it.

And by "advantage," you mean "achieving the same performance you had before the nerf." Check.

Seriously, why are you arguing theory here? RDM already proved that the existence of scalability does not necessarily translate into a desire to do it. RNG already proved that even "interesting" nerfs result in population decline.