Rapture in this years E3?

[BRP]

I can't tell if you're serious or trolling, but that is hilarious. More power to you if you think the ultimate goal of a game is to only accomplish as much today as you did yesterday. Progression is the driving force of everything.

Are YOU trolling? What you talk about isn't progression, but an effective scam. If put to the extreme it will make a game fat and tedious. The very tedium you oppose.

Consider this: Progression for whom? Not the player. The character? Nonsense. The character is just a rule in a larger set of rules. Can a basketball hoop progress?

When you defeat the big monster you couldn't defeat before you've achieved progression. You are a better player, especially if you can repeat the performance consistently(and oh you will, unfortunately.)

Obtaining what it drops- the loot? You have not achieved progression. That's not even playing. It has nothing to do with the actual game, like a cutscene.

If that big monster can only be defeated with the drops of another, then no one has progressed. Think of it as a cave which is too dark for you to notice it just goes in circles. And God knows it works. All devs have to do is paint this dry and empty cave a different color and give you a party hat when made a lap. Yay, packaged accomplishment for those who are too stupid to understand the meaning of accomplishment. You unlocked 100 gamerpoints! You can occasionally hit 2-3 times! Now you get to use the cotton-gin! This is the part where you complain to your master about petty issues. Where are my BLM updates?!?!

Now can a MMO do well completely without levels and equipment? Of course. I don't expect to see a (good) one for a couple years(and no the "skill"-based ones(Darkfall, etc) don't count - that is leveling.) And I am okay with this. I understand the formula - and here lies the beauty of horizontal progression: It unlocks options and makes the game deeper through those choices(though they really should have been available in the first place.) It will still please the stupid with its flashiness(though not the jaded and stupid - but those are the nihilists of our little game world, who cares about them.)

Has FFXI practiced side progression effectively? Nope! I'd say they have failed 80% of the time and more importantly have made the game still focus too much on traditional MMO "false progression." Only you can skip ahead with only-some merits, a BRD or three, Haste, and Utsu tanking. After all, what good is any type of progression real or not when you can ignore the game's economies of risk vs reward and punishment. Damage? Enmity? Actions? Exploitation in games is a good thing only sometimes.


I've entered a rant, so now I best see this to the end(while remaining semi-on topic.) Let us talk about the retarded crybabies who feel Sage Sundi is entitled to give them a pity blowjob and the news of their precious videogame.

Oh I must know the direction the dev team is taking my game! I must know if the dev team is listening to me! Oh the dev team must update a weblog frequently so I can alt tab from this terrible game I MUST play! Please post on our forums, or at least let us post on yours!

I do not speak of criticism or even pure jadedness(though the latter is pretty pathetic in itself), but the actual odd sense of entitlement these players feel they have. That dev teams must talk to them and must hear their suggestions and complaints. Since when did making games become a fucking public vote? You want to vote? Vote with your money and not play(they like money!) The only time it is okay to complain about dev silence is when they aren't providing their service. That is preventing you from playing their game - NOT preventing you from playing your game.

Imagine for a moment, a painter who is expected to describe where his next stroke will be placed. How silly it would be if "fans" were to tell him he must do this. That, criticism aside, this was valuable information. That this was MANDATORY. Maybe because some other painter won't shut the fuck up about a tree they are about to paint behind an odd little purple man and a furry, who knows, who cares. Somehow they could be made even more ridiculous: What if the painter didn't even speak English?

To end this rant, just look at this thread. Pretend this thread was about all SE games at E3 or this year or whatever. Rapture, the possible MMO, would be the only one expected to have some corny ass blog that pumped constant PR information long after its release and make its players feel like a a bunch of princesses. When it comes down to it, all this communication bullcrap exists outside of the game. How good the game is has nothing to do it. The game could be fucking perfect and the devs could never speak a word to us, and you'd have to be one hell of a whiny fag to think this is a bad thing.

[Xno Kappa]

No, thanks to Rapture.
FFXI is still broken in some respects and few of the complaints are easy fixes that could have been done years ago. As others have pointed out, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest SE actually learned anything substantial in the past seven years. FFXI was my first and will be my last MMO from SE. If Rapture turns out to be hawt eggs n' bacon, I might try it, til then I'll level another job in FFXI or something.

[Ratatapa]

tl;dr but rapture won't be at this E3

[Xavier]

Now I'm confident you're trolling.

Definition - Progress: growth or development; continuous improvement; a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage; to grow or develop, as in complexity, scope, or severity; advance.

If you'd like to warp the definition of progress to the point where progress itself doesn't exist, more power to you. But you also seem to be ranting on a ridiculous tangent with no basis towards my actual argument. I find this especially hilarious given that you've taken an antithetical stance towards progress in regards to game development.

Amassing items is one facet of the MMORPG experience. Those items are either inferior, identical, or superior to what came before. If they are inferior, the game is progressing backwards, if they are identical, the game is standing still, if they are superior, the game is progressing forward. Whether or not you personally place value on items, the fact remains that they exist, and their relevance cannot be diminished to mere "cut-scenes", particularly when a "cut-scene" never helped you defeat a monster. They hold real value, thus the manner of their implementation is relevant to the player base.

In FFXI, they have been introduced in such a way that the time commitment far outstrips the rewards distributed. It has been, I believe, a legitimate design flaw, which Square has, through their own actions, chosen to ignore. They retain, of course, the right to design their games however they want, while I retain the right to be disgruntled, and hold low expectations for any future projects they develop in the same vein.

Moreover, your sole example of progression is in and of itself, respective to FFXI, wrong. As a game, FFXI has been designed to force those seeking endgame to continually engage in the same encounters, for the same gear, year in and year out. Future updates have seen similar monsters, with similar moves, dropping gear of similar quality. Yet you somehow equate the ability to kill that which you could not previously kill as progression, while in reality this repetition has allowed for a large multitude of players to bypass the process of developing strategy and instead participate as a consequence of there being nothing else for endgame players to do.

As I said, your definition of "progress" is antithetical to progress itself. Carrying your logic to its natural conclusion would suggest that nothing matters, because ultimately nothing ever actually happens.

Your metaphor regarding a painter is also inaccurate, as the relationship here is not between an artist and a spectator, but an artist and a patron, whose money finances the art being produced. Such a relationship necessitates the possibility of input by the client on the product, first through the decision to buy the product, then by the decision over whether to continue or cease playing the product. It stands to reason that, in making that latter decision, one would try and address whatever problems they had before outright terminating their contract.

The end of your rant is likewise logically flawed, as the necessity for communication only arises as a result of grievances. If the game was perfect, there would be no grievances with which to engage in communication over. You presuppose that one would always feel the need to act regardless of whether or not one has a reason to act.

----------------------------------------

The bottom line, after so many words, as I have said, is that my expectation for another Square MMO have been severely tempered by my experience with their flagship MMO, which, while it has done a lot of things right, has also, in my opinion, relied on an endgame with some inexcusable flaws (terrible progression, poor time vs. reward distribution, etc).

That is really all I have to say on the matter, in addition to what was posted above. A thoughtful response might engender more, but, as overzealous trolling tends to be your sole function on these forums, this will probably do it for me.

[BRP]

Definition - Progress: growth or development; continuous improvement; a movement toward a goal or to a further or higher stage; to grow or develop, as in complexity, scope, or severity; advance.

Consider this: Progression for whom? Not the player. The character? Nonsense. The character is just a rule in a larger set of rules. Can a basketball hoop progress?

If you'd like to warp the definition of progress

Nothing is being warped. I am only reminding you of the main ingredients of a game.

Amassing items is one facet of the MMORPG experience.

No it is not. It is not written into its bones. You could take Halo as is and drop it in to a MMO setting and it will be a MMO. MMO-"RPGs" are not RPGs(and since when were RPGs about collecting items anyway?), but strategy games. So you can make something like make Starcraft a MMO, where a player loses all of their "progress" at the end of each fight. Amassing items is just the most popular straight in either MMOs or MMO-Strategy games and it could do without both. Do you want to know why? Because collecting persistent items is just a rule that isn't important enough to define genres.

You've only been programmed to think that way by PR and you never actually thought about it for yourself.

game is progressing

Why don't devs just make items with nigh-infinity stats? Imagine how progressive their games would be! We would be able to play the perfect game in no time! Oh wait no, that's retarded.

Games must progress like games. They are not people/players or avatars. To evolve, to progress, they must become better games(through sequels or patches.) This is done through complexity/depth(or aesthetics, but...) Not calculating another modifier for a shitty sword.

They hold real value

lol. There is a reason why I call you and your tastes petty. Oh so petty, and yet you don't see you could take out "rewards" and put in cutscene and not be a lick less sillier.

In FFXI, they have been introduced in such a way that the time commitment far outstrips the rewards distributed.

If FFXI allows you to play FFXI during that time commitment(which is usually the case) - this is a good thing. Like saying - "they focused on you playing the game more than having to watch cutscenes." This could only be a bad thing FFXI didn't let you grind or whatever and was full of fat(which it still has far too much of). And yet, you are probably complaining about the grind as well.

You see there is NO fundamental difference at all between "Work" and "Play." Truly, the difference is only made for those who take part in them. "Slaves work, masters play" is the ultimate quote when it comes to MMOs. It might be the only genre where the bitches continue to play long after they realize they hate the game. If that unwilling slave was told to master his skills at a fighting game or a traditional strategy game, he would probably cry his eyes out and say "that's work!" But to someone who enjoy games, it is another challenge to conquer - a simulation of power.

So what you get is petty complaining for less time spent playing the game and more petty objects - exactly what a slave without any understanding of games would want. Masters don't see it as picking cotton and they don't care about the petty "rewards."

Yet you somehow equate the ability to kill that which you could not previously kill as progression, while in reality this repetition has allowed for a large multitude of players to bypass the process of developing strategy and instead participate as a consequence of there being nothing else for endgame players to do.

Once you no longer find challenge in the game you should probably stop playing it. Disastrous to MMO formula?! Nope, because no one is quitting lol.

Carrying your logic to its natural conclusion would suggest that nothing matters, because ultimately nothing ever actually happens.

Only if you are naturally an idiot. Well, I guess there can only be so many answers when you mistake a game for a person.

as the relationship here is not between an artist and a spectator, but an artist and a patron

Same thing. We are always paying money for games and whatever else. Each update is actually a sequel in a sense. So just don't buy the new sequel by stop paying the subscription fee. Too bad you can't just go back and play the older versions though. SWG players lived in woe for the same reason.

Such a relationship necessitates the possibility of input by the client on the product

Only if the painter thinks so. If he can sell his paintings without it, good. If he doesn't care about selling his paintings, better! Man, what a retarded world we live in when masters of the craft must listen to those who have no knowledge of it.

Rest of the paragraph is a bunch of garbage to make the consumer feel more important. I am sure someone in marketing would care.

You presuppose that one would always feel the need to act regardless of whether or not one has a reason to act.

lol have you ever been on an internet message board?


Everything is trolling. I mean what could I say that wouldn't be trolling? If you lived in a retarded world with a retarded brain, how wouldn't someone intelligent be a scary and mean force of destruction? Think about it: if you are just going to call the opposition trolling, why did you even fucking post? You don't want to learn anything. Best in your own case just to go away.

[Kerberoz]

Why does the game itself even matter at all? SE's attitude towards their customers, lack of support or communication, and deteriorating updates should be enough to deter any sane person from giving their new MMO a chance.

[Hyan]

deteriorating updates should be enough to deter any sane person from giving their new MMO a chance.

Shouldn't this actually encourage people to give it a try? SE's obviously giving rapture more dev time than FFXI at this point, which is a good thing (for rapture). Oh yeah, maybe 7 years after Rapture's release SE may do the same thing to it, and that will spoil the whole experience right?

[Xavier]

As expected, more trolling.

You've chosen to ignore the way these games are for the way you wish they were. Which is fine, I guess, but a bit delusional.

You can call my views petty, but they are a reflection of the way these games actually work; the way the relationship between a patron-client actually works. If you are content to ignore reality, and moreover to call anyone who doesn't ignore it with you an idiot, then, as I said, more power to you.

But what you've described doesn't actually exist, and only a fool would behave as if it were true. So long as items are a part of the game, so long as the method of obtaining them defines endgame, their relevance cannot be ignored. You can cite them as unessential to the core of a game, but the fact remains that, so long as developers incorporate them into their game design, you cannot simply imagine they don't exist.

So long as a portion of the player base continues to play games to these ends, you cannot simply pretend they are not a part of the community. The players themselves are entirely free to be upset, to complain about aspects they disagree with, to seek improvements in their eyes, etc; the developers are, of course, free to listen or not. You, again, misunderstand the relationship between the artist and the client. The client doesn't dictate to the artist what strokes he should take, only the broad outline of things he would like to see from the final product. If I commission you to paint me a tree, and instead you only paint me an apple, then I am likely to complain about the product. Do you have to then go back and paint me a tree? No. But if I happen to see you painting an apple halfway through, do I sit back and not mention that I wanted a tree?

If there were not meant to be a means of communication between the two, none would exist. The fact remains that, so long as such a means of communication exists, people who are dissatisfied will seek to use it to improve what they perceive to be a bad situation.

As I said, the developers are not bound to listen to the players, but their ability to appreciate and act upon criticism is important; it dictates whether or not their consumers are happy, whether or not their source of revenue will continue. As a company, their ability to please me determines whether or not I give them my money; as a player, the entertainment I am able to derive out of their product determines my appreciation and satisfaction with it.

Awaiting response in which you continue to deny aspects of game design and berate my acknowledgment of the facts as dumb.

[Therin]

Why does the game itself even matter at all? SE's attitude towards their customers, lack of support or communication, and deteriorating updates should be enough to deter any sane person from giving their new MMO a chance.

I wouldn't say that. The deteriorating update thing is certainly an issue, but I chalk that up to the fact that the dev team is probably busing working on "Rapture" or other projects. Aside from that, I think their customer service isn't that horrible for a Japanese company. As long as you aren't getting your accounts banned by doing stupid things, you shouldn't really have much of a reason to even contact their representatives or SGMs. I've had minimal run-ins with them (transferred a mule before my main and needed an SGM to transfer my main a few days later, item recovery on a dropped item) and it was always swift and simple.

It IS disappointing that news and updates and community connections aren't as strong as, say, Mythic with Warhammer Online (the game that I compare this to as I've never played WoW), but I feel like this is to be expected from a Japanese company.

In other news, "Rapture" will not be at E3 this year, unless it's going to be a small surprise blurb or video:

News: E3: Two new titles from Square Enix - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

NIER
Developer: Cavia, Inc.
Publisher: Square Enix Ltd
Platforms: PLAYSTATION 3/ Xbox 360
Genre: Action-Adventure
Release Date: 2010

Nothing is as it seems in Square Enix's latest action adventure game, set in a crumbling world plagued by disease and dark, unrecognizable creatures. Players assume the role of the unyielding protagonist, NIER, resolute in his quest to discover a cure for his daughter, who is infected with the Black Scrawl virus. With powerful allies and a mysterious book, NIER encounters things that will confound even the mightiest of warriors.

Official website coming soon.

FRONT MISSION EVOLVED
Developer: Double Helix Games
Publisher: Square Enix Ltd.
Platforms: PLAYSTATION 3/Xbox 360/Windows PC
Genre: Third-Person Shooter
Release Date: TBA

From the creative minds of Square Enix and Double Helix Games, FRONT MISSION EVOLVED brings the classic FRONT MISSION franchise into an action-packed third-person shooter that gives players full control of a massive humanoid war machine-the wanzer. Players will battle through intense combat situations as they explore an immersive world in both the single player campaign and online multiplayer.

The official website can be found at FRONT MISSION EVOLVED | SQUARE ENIX

[Ziero]

Let's face it, FFXI came a long way from 2005~(fuckton of RMT's DDOS attacks, poor security, etc.) Nowadays it has got one of the most stable servers among MMORPGS, they are handling RMT problem quite well and the security token is a solid step towards account security.

With the way the token and SE account are set up, they can easily be used for future MMOs from SE, so I agree they're definitely learning and improving in their ability to run games. For all the bitching people do towards FFXI and SE's relations with the community, the game is one of the most stable MMOs out there with very few game breaking glitches and bugs. Unlike most of the jaded people around here, I see Rapture being handled, service wise, much better then FFXI when it first came out. However that doesn't mean it'll automatically be a good game.

Aye, having to wait 21-72 hours definitely allows you to develop detailed strategies. Aye, being forced to kill the same monsters forever certainly allows for you to refine that strategy quite well.

While timed world spawns may be an issue, they weren't always something horrid as they are now. I personally see the reason why they would see timed world spawns as a good idea, but unfortunately it's not a concept that will grow along with the player base. Though I actually enjoy having content that doesn't get outdated with every new update. While people who've been doing it for 6-7 years+ may burn themselves out on it, for new players, or even those who are just new to endgame, it's a whole new world for them. And when you're choices are to either add new events which obsolete the old or to add new events that work in tandem with the old, the second option will always be superior.

What you consider to be a triumph, I consider to be the games largest detriment. This is why the gear I got over 4 years ago is still largely the best gear in the game, and why anything done between then and now, from the perspective of an endgame player, was largely pointless.

While many older items may still be good, even the best in the game, many new items are equally as powerful and coveted. Sideways expansion, adding gear with similar-yet-different strengths adds a level of choice, uniqueness, to the game that with FFXI is sorely needed. While some older items are just far too over powered there are newer items jobs who can't use those items can gain to see similar increases in strength or players who don't do those events can obtain in their stead. Hell, even the mighty Ridill has fallen from it's undisputed top spot thanks to things like Perdu Axe and the 2 Hander update rivaling it's power.

Sadly though, it seems Rapture is once again nothing but a pipe dream at this point.

[Xavier]

Glad you find it superior, I don't.

Timed world spawns were a problem within 3 months of NA players reaching 75. I know, I was there. The system was never going to be able to accommodate more than 50-100 people at 75.

Nor do I believe that new content must make old obsolete, progression can be quite slow for all I care, so long as its there. I find sideways expansion to be stifling and debilitating, but again, that is just my opinion, and I'm not looking to convert anyone.

[BRP]

Xvr you are going to have to make up your mind. Am I delusional or am I a troll? You continue to reply to me despite thinking I am a troll. Can we stop with this "shut up troll" crap if you can't even resist? Good job calling me a troll and then spending a couple of paragraphs taking me seriously.

You can call my views petty

Nope. Your views are just incorrect - it is what you desire that is petty. The "rewards."

they are a reflection of the way these games actually work

Oh I am sure. Bad games.

Not all games though. Or do we like to pretend MMOs are above being grouped with games. Once you place a MMO with your "progression" next to a good game with true player progression, it becomes quite obvious that how these games work doesn't mean shit.

the way the relationship between a patron-client actually works.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. The relationship does not need to be explained further. What you speak of is only money getting in the way of making a good game. If you are not getting a piece, who cares? Lets call games bad when they are bad. Or just bad game design in this case.

If you are content to ignore reality

What "reality" am I ignoring? That the games you talk about don't exist(and suck)? That money/consumerism doesn't get in the way?

But what you've described doesn't actually exist,

I am not even sure what we are referring to here...

So long as items are a part of the game, so long as the method of obtaining them defines endgame, their relevance cannot be ignored.

Oh they are relevant, but of equal relevance and none of it is "progression." A level 1 sword is about as much progression as a level 1000 one - that is, not at all. They are both equal to Mario's Jump or the Battle Rifle.

You can cite them as unessential to the core of a game, but the fact remains that, so long as developers incorporate them into their game design, you cannot simply imagine they don't exist.

"Core of a game..." lol

Hey, remember that time I called them rules? Remember that? That was cool and totally not ignoring their existence.

So long as a portion of the player base continues to play games to these ends, you cannot simply pretend they are not a part of the community.

No idea what you are talking about at this point. The next few sentences really didn't clue me in what this was suppose to be responding to.

The players themselves are entirely free to be upset, to complain about aspects they disagree with, to seek improvements in their eyes, etc; the developers are, of course, free to listen or not... If I commission you

I very much said I wasn't talking about criticism or jadedness.

And we didn't commission shit, a poor analogy. None of this was built with our SPECIFIC(don't misunderstand this) whims in mind. Whether we will buy this product is completely in our realm, not theirs. Just like what his product will look like is not our choice. Of course marketing and PR is going to reshape our minds and maybe even reshape the game(boo) to make it so that we do buy it.

What I was talking about has little to do with complaining about anything. It is the player's demand to hear the developer. That is dictating them. What a stupid and worthless expectation.

their ability to appreciate and act upon criticism is important;

No, not really. Or should I say, -to whom? It might help them sure, but if making money is what is important, it is highly situational. Criticism is only the reaction to their work, nothing more. It exists outside their little system. Outside the game.

Just think: who is giving the criticism? Should their opinion even matter? What if he is an idiot? What if he was too smart for your target audience?

it dictates whether or not their consumers are happy, whether or not their source of revenue will continue.

No, not really. Remember the slaves? They will continue to make you money no matter how unhappy they are. It is so easy to keep them stupid drunk with petty toys.

As a company, their ability to please me determines whether or not I give them my money; as a player, the entertainment I am able to derive out of their product determines my appreciation and satisfaction with it.

We don't need to state the obvious. You see this has very little to do with what I am talking about. EVERY game is like this, but only MMOs are different in that the morons who play them demand to hear the voice of their masters. They will provide a years worth of reading just complaining about shit outside the game.

you continue to deny aspects of game design

I am the only one even speaking about game design at this point. You are just repeating the obvious. Yes, MMOs have your bullshit progression. I've already explained why it is bullshit progression. You don't need you to tell me yet again MMOs have it.

[Xavier]

Xvr you are going to have to make up your mind. Am I delusional or am I a troll?

Its entirely possible to be a delusional troll, in fact, its been my experience that most are. Its also entirely my choice whether or not to respond, regardless of the nature of your post.

Nope. Your views are just incorrect - it is what you desire that is petty.

I desire a sense of fulfillment for time spent, be it through pure entertainment, the acquisition of items, or the challenge of a fight. You can classify that as petty if you'd like.

As for my view being incorrect, we both know I won't hold your opinion in very high esteem when you're prone to waving your hand and dismissing an alternate view because it deviates from your own. Different /= incorrect.

Oh I am sure. Bad games.

Not all games though. Or do we like to pretend MMOs are above being grouped with games. Once you place a MMO with your "progression" next to a good game with true player progression, it becomes quite obvious that how these games work doesn't mean shit.

Once again, you miss, or at the very least ignore, the point. Are we discussing all games or are we discussing a specific type of game? Do these specific types of games, in this case MMOs, generally employ an emphasis on items or do they not?

Its readily clear that you do not like the typical MMO model, but your disdain does not, in fact, invalidate the model.

You present an argument for "progression" that is only valid under conditions which are not in fact currently real. Whether or not a game would be better served by minimalizing the importance of gear is irrelevant to the discussion of how gear is actually currently being implemented.

You think its bad, that's great, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists. You think they shouldn't hold value, that's also great, but it doesn't change the fact that as MMO games are typically designed, they do hold it.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. The relationship does not need to be explained further. What you speak of is only money getting in the way of making a good game.

For games in which your initial purchase represents your single investment in the product, I agree. For games in which your initial purchase merely represents a fraction of the amount of money you will invest, I disagree.

MMO games are, by nature, designed to forge an ongoing relationship between player and game. Subsequently, the player has an invested interest in the process of development. For a stand alone title, my opinion of means of improvement is irrelevant, because the product will not be changed; for a game which exists over a period of time and continually changes, my opinion becomes more relevant.

What "reality" am I ignoring? That the games you talk about don't exist(and suck)?

Delusion at its finest.

Oh they are relevant, but of equal relevance and none of it is "progression." A level 1 sword is about as much progression as a level 1000 one - that is, not at all. They are both equal to Mario's Jump or the Battle Rifle.

Does a Battle Rifle not equal a form of progression over a Pistol?

Does a Double Jump not equal a form of progression over a Jump?

You, fundamentally, do not understand progression. I provided you with a definition to be helpful, read it. Unless, of course, you would like to add an entry to the dictionary because your own sense of yourself is so bloated you believe the definition to be wrong.

Hey, remember that time I called them rules? Remember that? That was cool and totally not ignoring their existence.

I remember that time you gave an example with no relevance to the actual discussion, an example moreover that lacked sense. Was that the time?

And we didn't commission shit, a poor analogy.

Initially, no. But, as is the nature of a subscription based service, our continual financial contribution is largely responsible for it remaining in production.

Don't equate my analogy with yours.

Whether we will buy this product is completely in our realm, not theirs. Just like what his product will look like is not our choice. Of course marketing and PR is going to reshape our minds and maybe even reshape the game(boo) to make it so that we do buy it.

What I was talking about has little to do with complaining about anything. It is the player's demand to hear the developer. That is dictating them. What a stupid and worthless expectation.

If you are content to part with your money with no expectations at all, nor a means to convey those expectations, more power to you.

A lot of people are not.

No, not really. Or should I say, -to whom? It might help them sure, but if making money is what is important, it is highly situational. Criticism is only the reaction to their work, nothing more. It exists outside their little system. Outside the game.

Making money, highly situational? Money is the bottom-line of a business.

Criticism, when it is levied at a finished product, is useful only in the sense that you might consider such feedback for future products. It has no particular impact on the actual product that was already developed.

Criticism, when it is levied at an ongoing product, is useful in the sense that it may shape the product as it is developed. Since MMOs, beyond other games, represent the latter model, of a product which is highly susceptible to change, to argue that the consumer ought have no ability to communicate their dissatisfaction is rather silly.

No, not really. Remember the slaves? They will continue to make you money no matter how unhappy they are. It is so easy to keep them stupid drunk with petty toys.

A brief history of the world would suggest that even slaves rebel when they've had enough.

We don't need to state the obvious. You see this has very little to do with what I am talking about. EVERY game is like this, but only MMOs are different in that the morons who play them demand to hear the voice of their masters. They will provide a years worth of reading just complaining about shit outside the game.

See above statement. The process of development between a MMO and a stand-alone product are dramatically different, in that a stand-alone product is released and remains as it was, whereas a MMO is continually patched, given new content, and expanded.

As the process is fundamentally different, so is the mentality behind the players and their desire to express their relative satisfaction.

I am the only one even speaking about game design at this point. You are just repeating the obvious. Yes, MMOs have your bullshit progression. I've already explained why it is bullshit progression. You don't need you to tell me yet again MMOs have it.

You are the only one speaking about fundamentally changing a games design to remove an element of it which displeases you. You may label it bullshit, but it does not change the fact that it exists. So long as it exists, my view that it can be improved upon within the established system is not wrong. Simply wishing it were not so does not invalidate my opinion.

You acknowledge that MMOs incorporate my idea of progression, but disagree with that progression as representing a good idea. Okay. You have also somewhat humorously contradicted yourself, by simultaneously saying that the type of game I am speaking of 1) doesn't exist, 2) sucks, 3) exists. If it does not exist, how can we be sure that it sucks? If it does exist, then how you can feign a grasp of reality if you also believe it doesn't?

You have made a logical fallacy, as well, in assuming that, because you disagree with such a design, and would rather ignore it, or pretend it is something other than it is, that my opinion must be wrong.

You're arguing from a point of view which has overgeneralized game design by refusing to acknowledge the distinction that exists between a game which is released as a finished product, and a game which is released as an ongoing one.

Troll better, my delusional friend.

[Gtype954]

People want to progress FORWARD not BACKWARDS.

Relic weapon >>> years later relic weapon +1 able to be upgraded to stage 6 for example would be progress FORWARD.

Relic weapon >>> mythic weapon is a progress BACKWARDS. The entire weapon is inferior to its relic counterpart.

Going to ridill, kraken club and HQ elemental staves to .... claustrum, mjoller, organics and dorje is a step backwards.
They did progess forwards with a very powerful ammo equipment and powerful rings that drop off of AV but he is not farmable.

I am all for mobs in the next game to be killed in certain secret ways.
-JOL gets his regen lowered by pets killed.
-Temperance is immune to either blunt slashing or peircing on certain forms.
-Fortitude has "reflect" on until his pets die.
-Hydra's heads give him regen and TP moves based on his heads alive. His heads are destroyed with crit hits on the head that you did the crit too.

These gimmicks are fun.

If they gave AV a gimmick where you can lock his 2 hours and restore your 2 hrs by mimicking him. That would be a great concept on a monster.

A monster should only be hard if there is a gimmick that we do not know to beat it.
For example.. why not release a mob that can

-Only switch forms when you kill it with a corrensponding "title" on each of its forms.
-A mob that can only be killed when everyones 2 hour is "up".

To learn how to kill some of these super secret mobs in the game, you can do quests that will give you hints.

Make a mob like PW that has 100 different forms, and make a secret way to skip 90 of the forms.


AV is unacceptable. Its time to show a full 1 hour video of how to kill it.

Another problem with the game is that the mob can only be killed by a selective number of jobs and not all 20 jobs.

Would you let a puppetmaster or beastmaster participate in the AV battle with you? Why not let a blue mage fight or a monk.
Each monster in the game needs to killable with every possible job set-up in the game.
Hydra can't be damaged by magic, but make him stunnable so blms can still be in the fight for people who only has blm.
Tiamat flys and melee cannot hit him up there. Give each melee a ranged attack to combat that. Mnk has chi-blast, sam has relic bow, dragoon can super duper jump on him. What does warrior have?
I enjoy the battle design of Attowa chasm and dragons aery because it has pets so that beastmaster can join in on the HNM fun as well. Each job should be able to participate in HNM battles.

Some mobs are weak to blunt, slashing, magical, or peircing and those jobs should be the strongest on that respective monster but they should all have a chance to combat these foes.

[Lordshin]

What people are failing to realize is that its not SE as a whole that "failed" to deliver a good game... its the FFXI Team.

I'm sure Rapture will have its own team and therefore has the potential of having better service, support and developers who listen to the player base. Of course there is the chance it could be worse.

Also about progression:
The thing i like about FFXI is that it expands both vertically and horizontally.
Gtype's example of Relic>>Mythic is a good example of this. Sure Relic is much better in terms of damage, but SE themselves said that the purpose of the mythic weapons was not to out damage the Relic weapons but to enhance aspects of the jobs using them. Its not a step forward and definately not a step bacwards, its more of a step to the side, kind of like a fork in the road i guess?

SE doesn't create gear that makes other gear obsolete, i mean imagine of gear scaled up greatly in each expansion: Sky would be empty, Sea would be Empty, no one would do dynamis, no one would camp kings, etc.
Again, horizontal progression rather than veritcal is what drives this game.

Now i under stand that people are tired of doing the same old thing for years now and i do believe SE does need to add more ways to get "good gear" but not to the point where they drop like flies for everyone and their mother.

also i agree with gtype about the mobs with gimmicks and i've realized SE has been slowly creating mobs that do have some form of gimmick to them.
I also like the idea having an unbeatable, or insanely difficult, mob in an MMO and i guess SE attempted this with AV but the execution was horrible.

I just hope that the Rapture Development Team learns from the mistakes of the FFXI team and does not make the same mistakes.

But i'm not going to assume or expect anything until they announce the game.

[BRP]

You don't know what a troll is Xavier. It kind of makes me wish I was trolling right now. Maybe some day in the future I will troll you and it will be a magical experience for the both of us.

I desire a sense of fulfillment for time spent, be it through pure entertainment, the acquisition of items, or the challenge of a fight. You can classify that as petty if you'd like.

Only the bold is petty. The first and last are the exact same thing and they are the reason we play games. The "acquisition of items" is petty because in the way we are using it, it is only opposed or completely unrelated to what we talk about now. Only a person incapable of seeing what makes games great can even consider them worthwhile. What makes them great is exactly what you said: the challenge. What good are rewards? The battle is its own reward.

If we used it while being sensible, we would clearly see that it is just a small little rule. One that we would never see as "progression" no matter how it changed.

Are we discussing all games or are we discussing a specific type of game? Do these specific types of games, in this case MMOs, generally employ an emphasis on items or do they not?

You can't discuss MMOs without discussing every game or at least the every category MMOs would fall in(including "Game".) If that blows your mind, you need only to compare MMOs to good Strategy games without online Massive Multiplayer. Without other games there would be nothing to compare or contrast it to, it wouldn't even exist as a topic. (To put it as simply as humanly possible: what would FFXI be without FF and what would FF be without dungeon crawlers and what would those be without Dungeon and Dragons and what would... etc)

Whether they generally employ an emphasis on items is unimportant in determining what kind of game it is, because that's not the reason why they are Strategy games. It is like I said all that packaged reward stuff is bullshit. That's exactly how they should be treated. It is only important in that it will make the game slow and boring and fat and all sorts of bad things if abused(which it is in MMOs like WoW, 100% of the time.)

I can diagnose your problem Xvr: you think only in examples. This is why you are incapable of understanding anything about (video)games beyond what PR and marketing tells you. Is it so much to ask of you to think for yourself?

Its readily clear that you do not like the typical MMO model, but your disdain does not, in fact, invalidate the model.

Yes it does. How could it not? It is criticism.

You present an argument for "progression" that is only valid under conditions which are not in fact currently real.

What the hell does this even mean? I have give an extra lol here just because how retarded "CURRENTLY real" sounds.

Anyway you are going to need to stop with this real and unreal crap since it doesn't mean anything at all. You got to say why it isn't real or else you are saying nothing.

Whether or not a game would be better served by minimalizing the importance of gear is irrelevant to the discussion of how gear is actually currently being implemented.

Did you forget to finish this paragraph? Explain your crap. Of course it is relevant, how could we possibly criticize the latter without bringing up the proper way and how could we justify the former by bringing up the problem.

You think its bad, that's great, but that doesn't change the fact that it exists.

HURRRRRRRRRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

You think they shouldn't hold value, that's also great, but it doesn't change the fact that as MMO games are typically designed, they do hold it.

For someone who complains about hand-waving away arguments, you sure practice it to a mastery. Where is this value? Can you show it to me? Pretty sure that's your job. I know I can't do it, because I am incapable of this bullshit.

I must correct you though. It is not should or shouldn't hold value, it is that they can't hold value(explained in previous and this post.) And value is an odd word to bring up because it needs context. The context I am using is that it is a game.

For games in which your initial purchase represents your single investment in the product, I agree. For games in which your initial purchase merely represents a fraction of the amount of money you will invest, I disagree.

All games are continual investment. Whether you are buying the sequels or paying a subscription fee or only paying for a single game with only time. At some point you need to stop buying it/them if you become unsatisfied(or completely satisfied I guess would be a better way to describe it.)

MMO games are, by nature, designed to forge an ongoing relationship between player and game.

What a stupid sentence. All games create relationships between player and game. How the fuck could they even be played otherwise? If you are going to say these outrageous lines you must provide some contrast to describe how any game is different. This whole post is full of this: utterly empty sayings.

For a stand alone title, my opinion of means of improvement is irrelevant, because the product will not be changed;

Hello Halo, meet Halo 2. Hello Halo 2, meet Halo 3.

And your opinion was never relevant. No matter how the game is released. It can only be relevant to those in marketing and only when you are not playing the game.

Does a Battle Rifle not equal a form of progression over a Pistol?

Does a Double Jump not equal a form of progression over a Jump?

No and no. A battle rifle is a battle rifile. A pistol is a pistol. And so on.

You, fundamentally, do not understand progression. I provided you with a definition to be helpful, read it. Unless, of course, you would like to add an entry to the dictionary because your own sense of yourself is so bloated you believe the definition to be wrong.

I didn't disagree with your definition(though half of it is excess.) Your problem is that you don't understand that rules can't progress like players. Within a single game, they don't "progress" at all. I wish you could just see how retarded it is. Why not ask your sword to think while you are at it?

Players do progress. They evolve, become better, grasp the depth, conquer the complexity, etc etc. But rules are just objects or barriers or whatever. Stuff, things, tools. A sword is no different than an area in this sense. The reason your character can jump is the same as the color of a monster. The modifier to your special attack is the same as the movement speed of your mount. They are mechanics, aesthetics. RULES.

(The only way rules can "progress" is through sequels, but this is off-topic. That has hardly anything to do with the player and it certainly doesn't look like "better gear." With progressive rules comes a progressive game. A game with "better swords" isn't a better game.)

How incredible it is that so many people can be scammed by having these rules imitate player progression. People like you fall for this illusion. All they need to do is trick the player by replacing the sword(not replacing the rule even, just using another.) "Of course I have progressed! I hit harder!"

I remember that time you gave an example with no relevance to the actual discussion, an example moreover that lacked sense. Was that the time?

When did we stop talking about videogames lol?

A lot of people are not.

If that was the case then FFXI couldn't exist now could it? Also: the weight of "More power to you" is completely gone by this point.

Making money, highly situational? Money is the bottom-line of a business.

Stop getting lost and stop saying obvious shit. Criticisms being helpful to business is situational. If what I said changed WoW into something that isn't WoW, but good, who is really being "helped?" WoW makes hundreds of millions as a shitty game. What a movie critic says about Just Another Parody Movie is "useless" if it breaks all box office records.

Criticism, when it is levied at an ongoing product, is useful in the sense that it may shape the product as it is developed. Since MMOs, beyond other games, represent the latter model, of a product which is highly susceptible to change, to argue that the consumer ought have no ability to communicate their dissatisfaction is rather silly.

All games are ongoing. Street Fighter has never ended development and I don't just mean the games released by Capcom. A shit load of change happening there. In comparison patched updates are just small tiny bits of change. We got Street Fighter with parries, Street Fighter in a 3 dimensional field, Street Fighter with even more Super bars, etc etc. Then we got sequels to THOSE games.

A brief history of the world would suggest that even slaves rebel when they've had enough.

Don't be silly. There has never been a successful slave revolt. The best they could do is find new sources of petty indulgences lol. People are born into slavery, it is not a decision left to a government or economic system.

The process of development between a MMO and a stand-alone product are dramatically different, in that a stand-alone product is released and remains as it was, whereas a MMO is continually patched, given new content, and expanded.

There is only a small difference between them, nothing dramatic. That difference is that it is much more obvious to see MMOs that way, but it takes actual knowledge of the subject to see all games are the same way.

You are the only one speaking about fundamentally changing a games design to remove an element of it which displeases you.

Changing a game design's is not my job or my purpose. I am only pointing out flawed game design, not removing it. And why are you saying "You are only..." as if I was suppose to do something else as a critic?

You acknowledge that MMOs incorporate my idea of progression, but disagree with that progression as representing a good idea.

Maybe I am confusing you by using the word progression in the first place. You have no idea of progression. Current popular MMOs do not either. This is why they look the way they do. It does not represent any idea. It is that which doesn't exist, the games exist. The games still have their rules, but these rules will remain rules. The more you say "real", "exist", and anything like that the less of a point you seem to have. I can't help but wonder just because you can't grasp concepts you deem them invisible. This is a common tactic of the ignorant.

You have made a logical fallacy, as well, in assuming that, because you disagree with such a design, and would rather ignore it, or pretend it is something other than it is, that my opinion must be wrong.

Really? Does this logical fallacy have a name?

You are wrong because of the reasons I explained. Saying a player's progression can be performed by rules. And in the case of the crybabies: thinking there is a difference between MMOs and normal games, and that the relationship between developers and players outside the game should matter. 'Course you can say you are wrong because you disagreed with me, that's an easy way of saying the exact same thing.

refusing to acknowledge the distinction that exists between a game which is released as a finished product, and a game which is released as an ongoing one.

This distinction is so small that it doesn't matter. Already explained it above.

These posts only seem to multiply in size. Oh well.

[Xavier]

The "acquisition of items" is petty because in the way we are using it, it is only opposed or completely unrelated to what we talk about now.

Only, its not.

Only a person incapable of seeing what makes games great can even consider them worthwhile.

So says you.

What makes them great is exactly what you said: the challenge. What good are rewards? The battle is its own reward.

Belongs on a bumper sticker.

No.

If we used it while being sensible, we would clearly see that it is just a small little rule. One that we would never see as "progression" no matter how it changed.

Believe that if you'd like to.

You can't discuss MMOs without discussing every game or at least the every category MMOs would fall in(including "Game".)

I certainly can, even if you cannot.

If that blows your mind, you need only to compare MMOs to good Strategy games without online Massive Multiplayer. Without other games there would be nothing to compare or contrast it to, it wouldn't even exist as a topic.

Again, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

(To put it as simply as humanly possible: what would FFXI be without FF and what would FF be without dungeon crawlers and what would those be without Dungeon and Dragons and what would... etc)

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Whether they generally employ an emphasis on items is unimportant in determining what kind of game it is, because that's not the reason why they are Strategy games.

Wild tangent.

It is like I said all that packaged reward stuff is bullshit. That's exactly how they should be treated.

No its not.

It is only important in that it will make the game slow and boring and fat and all sorts of bad things if abused(which it is in MMOs like WoW, 100% of the time.)

It won't.

I can diagnose your problem Xvr: you think only in examples. This is why you are incapable of understanding anything about (video)games beyond what PR and marketing tells you. Is it so much to ask of you to think for yourself?

Is it so much to ask for you to think, period?

Having an opinion which differs from your own does not make it incorrect, chief.

Yes it does. How could it not? It is criticism.

Clear trolling.

What the hell does this even mean? I have give an extra lol here just because how retarded "CURRENTLY real" sounds.

I am sure the thought of reality does cause you to chuckle.

Anyway you are going to need to stop with this real and unreal crap since it doesn't mean anything at all. You got to say why it isn't real or else you are saying nothing.

I've stated whats real; you've ignored it for the way you wish things were.

Did you forget to finish this paragraph? Explain your crap. Of course it is relevant, how could we possibly criticize the latter without bringing up the proper way and how could we justify the former by bringing up the problem.

Your point, again, is only relevant if you're looking to ignore, or change, the current typical MMO model. As my complaint is directed at working within the model, and not with changing it outright, your comments on whether or not the model itself is good are irrelevant.

Where is this value? Can you show it to me? Pretty sure that's your job. I know I can't do it, because I am incapable of this bullshit.

It isn't bullshit. Value exists so long as there are people who believe it does. As I believe it holds value, so it must; as you do not, you cannot see it. But that does not mean it doesn't exist.

I must correct you though. It is not should or shouldn't hold value, it is that they can't hold value(explained in previous and this post.)

Your previous post explained nothing other than your own prejudices. Anything can hold value if there are people who find value in it.

And value is an odd word to bring up because it needs context. The context I am using is that it is a game.

Another definition for you, since you've stumbled.

Value - any object or quality desirable as a means or as an end in itself

If people desire something, it holds, at least to them, value. If people desire items from a game, they hold value.

All games are continual investment.

No they aren't.

What a stupid sentence. All games create relationships between player and game. How the fuck could they even be played otherwise? If you are going to say these outrageous lines you must provide some contrast to describe how any game is different. This whole post is full of this: utterly empty sayings.

The degree of personalization, of interaction between that character and other people, etc, is greatly intensified in an MMO. The relationship is not identical between offline and online games.

Sorry, it just isn't.

Hello Halo, meet Halo 2. Hello Halo 2, meet Halo 3.

Missing the point.

And your opinion was never relevant.

It is, sorry.

No and no. A battle rifle is a battle rifile. A pistol is a pistol. And so on.

Wrong here too. Recheck definition of progression.

I didn't disagree with your definition(though half of it is excess.) Your problem is that you don't understand that rules can't progress like players. Within a single game, they don't "progress" at all. I wish you could just see how retarded it is. Why not ask your sword to think while you are at it?

Missing the point.

Players do progress. They evolve, become better, grasp the depth, conquer the complexity, etc etc. But rules are just objects or barriers or whatever. Stuff, things, tools. A sword is no different than an area in this sense. The reason your character can jump is the same as the color of a monster. The modifier to your special attack is the same as the movement speed of your mount. They are mechanics, aesthetics. RULES.

Missing the point.

(The only way rules can "progress" is through sequels, but this is off-topic. That has hardly anything to do with the player and it certainly doesn't look like "better gear." With progressive rules comes a progressive game. A game with "better swords" isn't a better game.)

Incorrect. With online games, which are continually patched, the game itself can progress without the necessity of a sequel. The rules can be changed on a daily basis, if desired.

How incredible it is that so many people can be scammed by having these rules imitate player progression. People like you fall for this illusion. All they need to do is trick the player by replacing the sword(not replacing the rule even, just using another.) "Of course I have progressed! I hit harder!"

Recheck definition of progression.

If that was the case then FFXI couldn't exist now could it? Also: the weight of "More power to you" is completely gone by this point.

If you want to continually miss the point, more power to you.

Stop getting lost and stop saying obvious shit.

I have to continually repeat the obvious, as you seem to ignore it.

All games are ongoing. Street Fighter has never ended development and I don't just mean the games released by Capcom. A shit load of change happening there. In comparison patched updates are just small tiny bits of change. We got Street Fighter with parries, Street Fighter in a 3 dimensional field, Street Fighter with even more Super bars, etc etc. Then we got sequels to THOSE games.

Irrelevant.

Don't be silly. There has never been a successful slave revolt. The best they could do is find new sources of petty indulgences lol. People are born into slavery, it is not a decision left to a government or economic system.

Ridiculous statement, but expected, as you've demonstrated a very jaded view of society.

Maybe I am confusing you by using the word progression in the first place. You have no idea of progression. Current popular MMOs do not either. This is why they look the way they do. It does not represent any idea. It is that which doesn't exist, the games exist. The games still have their rules, but these rules will remain rules. The more you say "real", "exist", and anything like that the less of a point you seem to have. I can't help but wonder just because you can't grasp concepts you deem them invisible. This is a common tactic of the ignorant.

Recheck definition of progression.

You are wrong because of the reasons I explained.

You've given your point of view, but that doesn't explain how I am wrong, merely that you disagree with me.

You'd have to actually prove what you've said, beyond just saying so, for me to actually be wrong.

'Course you can say you are wrong because you disagreed with me, that's an easy way of saying the exact same thing.

Which is, ironically, the very thing you've done. Neato.

This distinction is so small that it doesn't matter. Already explained it above.

You'd certainly like to think you've explained it by giving your opinion and saying anything else is wrong, but alas, you have not.

This is pointless, though, as you seem quite content in believing yourself to be the most enlightened man on earth. I had wanted to stick to one sentence responses to make it easier on you, so that you'd be less likely to skip over complicated ideas, but alas, it cannot be helped.

It's time to tell the truth about BRP. Before I begin, let me point out that if it were true, as BRP claims, that he knows 100% of everything 100% of the time, then I wouldn't be saying that if you've read any of the despicable slop that BRP has concocted, you'll doubtlessly recall BRP's description of his plan to persuade many of his opponents to enter into a one-way "dialogue" with him. If you haven't read any of it, well, all you really need to know is that no matter how bad you think BRP's bait-and-switch tactics are, I assure you that they are far, far worse than you think. I must unequivocally add my voice to the chorus of those who deal stiffly with biggety quidnuncs who turn positions of leadership into positions of complacency. This is equivalent to saying that BRP likes saying that the moon is made of green cheese. Okay, that's a parody—but not a very gross one. In point of fact, BRP should not revive the ruinous excess of a bygone era to bounce and blow amidst the ruinous excess of the present era. Not now, not ever.

It's possible that BRP doesn't realize this because he has been ingrained with so much of scapegoatism's propaganda. If that's the case, I recommend that we allay the concerns of the many people who have been harmed by him. Will someone please explain to me what it is in our lives that can possibly make someone apotheosize illiberal loons? Because I certainly have no idea.

BRP gives his most banal statements an appearance of profundity by utilizing polysyllabic words such as "incontrovertibleness" and "electrophysiologically". Or, to express that sentiment without all of the emotionally charged lingo, BRP's most progressive idea is to spit on sacred icons. If that sounds progressive to you, you must be facing the wrong way. Trumpeted so many times, his fulminations have begun to feed on themselves, to generate their own publicity, to cow their opponents not by argument but by sheer repetition, and to ensure that all of the news we receive is filtered through a narrow ideological prism. So you see, BRP's forces get so hypnotized by his simplistic "good guys and bad guys" approach to history that they do not hear what BRP is really saying.

I've been hesitating to write this letter because I've been afraid that, if I did, BRP would do everything in his power to make me sink into a miasma of doubt and alienation. But after reading about BRP's phlegmatic projects, I could hesitate no longer. In the first place, even if one isn't completely conversant with current events, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates that you may be wondering why deluded yutzes latch onto BRP's magic-bullet explanations. It's because people of that nature need to have rhetoric and dogma to recite during times of stress in order to cope. That's also why BRP yields to the mammalian desire to assert individuality by attracting attention. Unfortunately, for BRP, "attract attention" usually implies "sentence more and more people to poverty, prison, and early death".

There are no two ways about it; we mustn't let BRP cause one-sided belief systems to be entered into historical fact. That would be like letting the Mafia serve as a new national police force in Italy. How do you think he will get his hands on all of the incriminating documents about him that I have in my possession? A secretive home or office invasion, a knock on the door, or his favored battering-ram incursion? Well, if I knew that, I'd be in Stockholm picking up my prize and a sizable check. I would never take a job working for him. Given his blasphemous ravings, who would want to? But this is something to be filed away for future letters. At present, I wish to focus on only one thing: the fact that we must stop tiptoeing and begin marching boldly and forthrightly towards our goal, which is to look into the future and consider what will happen if we let BRP subvert time-tested societal norms.

We don't need to demonize BRP; he is already a demon, and furthermore, some people think I'm exaggerating when I say that he can pervert any established ideology. But I'm not exaggerating; if anything, I'm understating the situation. The passage of time will make it clear to even the more slow among us that I certainly feel that we need to do more to give direction to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality. But there are other strains of obtrusive narcissism active today and the siren calls of those movements may mesmerize incoherent quidnuncs whose intransigent fervor blinds them to historical lessons. If you want a better opportunity to get a job, raise a family in a safe neighborhood, have a better chance at a good education, and lower the taxes on the money you earn, then I ask that you help me restore the world back to its original balance. BRP prefers to keep his beer-guzzling agenda hidden behind the cloak of simplism. The same might be said of recalcitrant pseudo-intellectuals. Maybe it's just me, but don't you think that when he is challenged, BRP either denies everything or claims that his words were taken out of context and that his enemies are plotting against him?

I realize that plagiarism is a tremendous problem in our society, but does it constantly have to be thrown in our faces? To ask that question another way, is BRP's incessant burbling about the wonders of barbarism supposed to convince us that one can understand the elements of a scientific theory only by reference to the social condition and personal histories of the scientists involved? My answer is, as always, a model of clarity and the soul of wit: I don't know. However, I do know that he says that those of us who oppose him would rather run than fight. You know, he can lie as much as he wants but he can't change the facts. If he could, he'd surely prevent anyone from hearing that he proclaims at every opportunity that he'd never wipe out delicate ecosystems. The gentleman doth protest too much, methinks.

When BRP was first found trying to develop mind-control technology, I was scared. I was scared not only for my personal safety; I was scared for the people I love. And now that BRP is planning to woo over balmy, odious vendors of heathenism by using tactics such as scapegoating, reductionist and simplistic solutions, demagoguery, and a conspiracy theory of history, I'm terrified. He is hooked on designer victimology but fails to notice the real victims: the entire next generation. I close this letter along the same lines it opened on: BRP justifies his thievery by saying things like, "It's for the good of society".

[Correction]

tl;dr

Yes

no

Uh-huh

nuh-uh

No u

NO U

Ur mom

NO UR MOM

[BRP]

Yes, yes. That argument-generator site was funny 3 or 4 years ago.

Correction that only really parodies Xavier most recent post, where he realized he was in way over his head and went into safeface mode and pretends to troll.

[Xavier]

You'd certainly like to think so, wouldn't you?

Its about as serious as anything you've posted. Parts of it are actually quite accurate, surprisingly, too.

I completely disagree with you, whether you mean what you've said or not. Your argument sidesteps my complaint, it ignores the reality of MMOs for the way you wish they were.

As you are either unwilling or unable to distinguish the way things are from the way you'd like things to be, there doesn't seem to be much reason to continue. Moreover, there was plenty said before the complaint, of which you will no doubt ignore or deride as untrue because its divergent from your own opinion.

If you want to have a discussion in which you don't pretend my point of view is wrong because it conflicts with yours, and that your own is divinely inspired, I'm game. Otherwise you're wasting my time.