Rapture in this years E3?

[BRP]

Never am I ignoring reality which is why it continues to be ridiculous when you say it. You are ignoring reality. Oh wow, I won the whole damn debate just like that!

I say a statement and I explain it. Your responses are just the words "It just isn't that," like I am suppose to believe you when you obviously haven't spent much time thinking about this. You can't even tell me why it is that way. At this point I am not even arguing about MMOs, you haven't been able to say anything critical of my argument.

If you want to have a discussion in which you don't pretend my point of view is wrong because it conflicts with yours

I am not pretending and I can't see how it could be any other way. Maybe if we were jerking each other off instead, then we could be the best of pals. I am right because it is evidently true. You are free to try and disagree. There is always the chance I am wrong, but if I had to place a bet, I would say you'd have a better chance far, far elsewhere.

We can't ever come to a conclusion because you still haven't reached the point where you are defining games as a set of rules and you need to go and think about that before we could ever be on the same page. Like when I say MMOs and non-MMOs are fundamentally the same - to me that is common sense, but to you such a concept must be alien or something. Right now we are speaking different languages.


EDIT: Correction: Too many topics at once.

[Correction]

Yes, yes. That argument-generator site was funny 3 or 4 years ago.

Correction that only really parodies Xavier most recent post, where he realized he was in way over his head and went into safeface mode and pretends to troll.

You're both quote-splitting each other's shit into an unreadable tit-for-tat cockfest. At this point the only reason to keep on doing it is self-satisfaction, not because you have any realistic hope of convincing the other side, let alone reading what they have to say.

[Xavier]

Once again, your argument boils down to mine being inadequate because its not yours.

I already gave my reasons, some at great length. Whether you choose to acknowledge them or not is up to you, but your tendency to ignore those which are not your own would suggest you will not.

[Pooky]

You're both quote-splitting each other's shit into an unreadable tit-for-tat cockfest. At this point the only reason to keep on doing it is self-satisfaction, not because you have any realistic hope of convincing the other side, let alone reading what they have to say.

Since when are arguments about convincing the other side of your point of view?

From where I'm standing this has turned into BRP stating his view and defending it, while receiving nothing but wall of texts that boil down to "Nuh-uh!!!" while accented every two to three words with commas.

Item rewards are not progression, the progression comes from the task you complete to *get* the reward. Farming Boss/Instance/Raid/Zone X for gear Y to allow you to fight Boss/Instance/Raid/Zone Z is *NOT* progression. All it is is merely collecting shinies while awaiting the next patch that makes it totally obsolete. It sucks, but people will still buy it and go through the motions for the same reasons that people will play and buy Pokemon *instertcolor/gemhere*, or PSO iterations. Its the same core event/game in every instance, but with different shinies to collect.

A Battle Rifle is not progression over a Pistol anymore than a Rocket Launcher is over a Double Jump. Saying that a Soldier in TF2 is progression from an Engineer is ludicrous, they're both tools (with their own mechanics) to achieve a goal.

These aren't hard concepts to grasp, neither is the comparison of MMO's to Strategy games. It simply requires you to look past the pixels (so to speak) and look at the underlying core of games in general.

[Not Kuno]

I missed you Xavier.

[Xavier]

These aren't hard concepts to grasp.

A Battle Rifle is not progression over a Pistol anymore than a Rocket Launcher is over a Double Jump. Saying that a Soldier in TF2 is progression from an Engineer is ludicrous, they're both tools (with their own mechanics) to achieve a goal.

Difficult enough that you've evidently misused the example.

If I begin with a pistol, and later acquire a battle riffle, has my character not become more efficient at what it does? The very definition of progress is continuous improvement. If one facet of a game is the acquisition of items, and those items are inferior or merely identical to what you have already obtained, then you have not progressed in that facet of the game.

Whether or not you want the entire game to be defined by items is relative to the goals of the player, but I don't see how anyone can pretend that they don't traditionally play a rather large role in MMOs. Whether or not you like them is, likewise, relative to personal tastes, but they do exist and are coveted.

And so long as they are coveted, the means by which they are obtained will play a large role in the satisfaction of the player. You, like BRP, would like the emphasis to be on the experience before acquiring items, as opposed to the items themselves, but that would obviously ignore one of the motivating factors behind bothering with the experience in the first place: the end result.

[Pooky]

Difficult enough that you've evidently misused the example.

If I begin with a pistol, and later acquire a battle riffle, has my character not become more efficient at what it does? The very definition of progress is continuous improvement. If one facet of a game is the acquisition of items, and those items are inferior or merely identical to what you have already obtained, then you have not progressed in that facet of the game.

Whether or not you want the entire game to be defined by items is relative to the goals of the player, but I don't see how anyone can pretend that they don't traditionally play a rather large role in MMOs. Whether or not you like them is, likewise, relative to personal tastes, but they do exist and are coveted.

So by that logic a Sniper Rifle is progression from a Shotgun; even though they are two very different weapons with different mechanics, specialties and uses? Or that a Rocket Jump is progression over a Double Jump because it gets you from A to B faster?

I haven't misused the example, I'm simply looking at what the example IS: A comparison of two tools that have different rules of operation.

You're judging a game's progression on (admittedly) one facet of a game, and THAT is what BRP is trying to clue you in on. You're judging TOOLS (and the rules they follow) as the litmus for progress, and that simply isn't accurate.

I'll use BRPs basketball hoop example:
If you change the rules of the game, so that the hoop now gives 5 points instead of 3; does that mean the game made progress?

The answer is no. Its still the same game: it has the same objective, scoring (you get points for putting the ball through the hoop), strategy, same basic method to win. Rules have changed, no progress was made.

Does Item Collection play a part in MMO's? YES. That's simple to see. The difference is, that you fail to see it for what it is. Item Collection isn't progress, its simply a PR tool to Keep Players Playing. Get this, people are greedy. They want to Catch 'em All.

Whether or not you want the entire game to be defined by items is relative to the goals of the player...Whether or not you like them is, likewise, relative to personal tastes, but they do exist and are coveted.

And so long as they are coveted, the means by which they are obtained will play a large role in the satisfaction of the player. You, like BRP, would like the emphasis to be on the experience before acquiring items, as opposed to the items themselves, but that would obviously ignore one of the motivating factors behind bothering with the experience in the first place: the end result.

These statements don't make any sense. You claim that player motivation is subjective, then claim that players are mainly motivated to collect items instead of actually playing the game. The end result of games isn't to collect everything, all the best shinies (Pokemon excluded >.>) its to actually play the damn game.

[Correction]

The end result of games isn't to collect everything, all the best shinies (Pokemon excluded >.>) its to actually play the damn game.

That's a little circular. Be it items, cutscenes, titles or currency every game should oblige the player with some reward for their efforts. Saying the reward is everything before the goals and it's okay if there are no goals is strictly masochistic. You might as well tread water for 8 hours instead of play video games.

[Xavier]

You're judging a game's progression on (admittedly) one facet of a game, and THAT is what BRP is trying to clue you in on. You're judging TOOLS (and the rules they follow) as the litmus for progress, and that simply isn't accurate.

Where have I said that items alone were the only measure of progress?

I've claimed they are one facet, not the sole facet. If you read my initial posts, I credited the game with having done quite a few things very well. It has only been in regards to itemization that I feel it has fallen short.

These statements don't make any sense. You claim that player motivation is subjective, then claim that players are mainly motivated to collect items instead of actually playing the game. The end result of games isn't to collect everything, all the best shinies (Pokemon excluded >.>) its to actually play the damn game.

I am sorry you found them confusing, but that is not what was said.

I acknowledged that there are multiple ways to play MMOs, and that among them itemization has been one such facet of the games (which you seem inclined to agree with). For those who value itemization, however, I believe that the motivation behind playing has been to collect increasingly better gear. Those who play the game and those who play the game specifically for gear are not necessarily (and I would say aren't even close to being) two mutually inclusive groups.

Thus, if your reason for playing is gear, it stands to reason that your method of playing "the damn game" is to collect it. If a player feels that their accomplishments can be measured by the number of items in their inventory, then the end result they desire is to have a bloated inventory. For them, that is playing the game as they want to play it. Isn't the point of an RPG to assume a role and play it? If the collection of increasingly more powerful weapons and armor represents continual improvement to the player, then for those players, better gear does represent progress.

The idea that because you don't place any significance on the reward that the significance felt by the players who do is invalidated doesn't make sense. Just as those players opinion on other facets of the game upon which they place lesser value are not, as a result, any less significant to you.

For your conclusion to be accurate, you'd have to either show that these types of players simply do not exist (and I think most everyone will have some experience with someone who values gear above all else), or ignore them. You don't have to like this type of player or the system they thrive in to acknowledge that they and it exist. As Correction said, moreover, most people will require -some- reason to play a game, or else they wouldn't be playing in the first place. Gear is simply one motivator among many, but rest assured it is definitely one.

Everyone will find a different reason to play, items just represent one facet. BRP has made the point that he finds that facet extremely petty and unnecessary. He may be right, but nevertheless it does in fact represent a facet of MMO's as they are currently designed. As long as such a community exists, as long as game design encourages such a community to exist, I believe they have a right to have certain expectations and be vocal if they are not met.

As I have said, there is of course no obligation for their objections to actually be rectified, but the degree to which they are is likely to influence how much admiration the player holds for the company, and whether they are likely to continue doing business with them. I don't find this to be a particularly outrageous statement, although BRP would evidently prefer them to idle in slavery instead.

[avelle]

Holy shit are you guys done yet? :/ Is it can be Rapture time now?

[BRP]

Let this thread only be about Rapture. There is nothing left to be said. To prevent this crap from starting again, lets not talk about a lack of dev-team-interviews or whatever other issues that are clearly remarks on FFXI.

To whomever said otherwise: this team will be or mostly be the same as FFXI.

[Damane]

I really think SE will show off Rapture in this year, maybe not at E3, but definitly will show it this year prolly.

[Dymlos]

If they don't show Rapture at e3 then it's obvious they're being secretive bastards again. How long as it been since this MMO was released? At least toss us some damn screenies SE.

[Ryko]

Why all the long posts ignoring the fact of the matter that the "Fat", the tedium isnt the problem with mmo's. Without the fat and the tedium people would be done with the game quickly and unsubscribe. You act like people dont eventually realize theyre spending 13 dollars for a chatroom and quit when the progression is not there. Call it a scam or a ruse, but the goal of an MMORPG is to keep you paying month after month. The EASIEST way to do that is to pile on obstacle after obstacle with tedious but effective bonuses given to the player as they continue along, making the previous content that much easier. You act like XI doesn't have this and that's what makes it great, but that's a joke. XI does have it, it's just largely done in one large clump. You're either rocking Af1 and a Koenig shield or you're rocking an Aegis and whatever the fuck is the new hot bodypiece, probably still a fkn ares body considering how many of them got banned. The difference in effectiveness is rather apparent, it's just that there is no tier beyond that. You get your stuff, your killtimes drop but in the end you are still, and forever will be hunting the same gear and Xav's right, to act like the people who subscribe to that concept or hunt for the gear at all are stupid is ridiculous, as it keeps people who would have otherwise been done with the game paying.