Couple Ordered to Stop Holding Bible Study at Home Without Permit

[Gadritan]

how does that impede the progress of a car going down the street

1 car shouldn't be a problem, although you know as well as I do that terrible drivers could have issues with it. 2 cars headed towards each other? That can turn into a disaster if either one of them makes a poor decision.

You're assuming that everyone is a good driver with common sense, which is ridiculous.

You're also assuming that everyone would park perfectly, which is ridiculous as well.

Edit: Not to mention people don't always look when they're getting out of their cars. It's fairly common for accidents to be caused by this when they do it as a car is passing. Again, people are not perfect. They make mistakes. This is just an extra precaution to help reduce the risk of injury and/or destruction of property due to a simple error in judgment.

[Gregorio]

Actually, I think you are confusing rights with entitlements.

You are born with free speech. You arent born with land. You are entitled to work for land and property. You have the right to free speech.

No, I never said people were entitled to anything. I never said you are born with land. You are born, however, with the right to own property (property is not just land, btw). You said owning property is a privilege and quoted the Declaration of Independence as a source of this ("Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness..."), but the Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with establishing our rights in the first place.

Driving is a privilege, owning property is not...it is a right.

[Demosthenes11]

so because some people are bad drivers, you can't have bible study in your own home? kk np

[Gadritan]

Hey genius, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the event itself is.

If it was a scientology group, AA, or monkey lovers anonymous the laws would still apply.

Unless of course you're stating that Christians don't have to adhere to the same laws as the rest of the public. Then you'd have a point.

Edit: If it wasn't a bible study it never would have even made news. Scenarios like this have happened to thousands upon thousands of people. Why didn't we hear about it? Oh right, because it wasn't some pompous religious group that feels they're above the law.

[archibaldcrane]

If it wasn't a bible study it never would have even made news. Scenarios like this have happened to thousands upon thousands of people. Why didn't we hear about it? Oh right, because it wasn't some pompous religious group that feels they're above the law.

What if it was a group of Judge Dredd impersonators?

[Gadritan]

They're not above the law. THEY ARE THE LAW!

[archibaldcrane]

YouTube - The Onion: Supreme Court: Death Penalty Is 'Totally Badass'

[guartz]

No, I never said people were entitled to anything. I never said you are born with land. You are born, however, with the right to own property (property is not just land, btw). You said owning property is a privilege and quoted the Declaration of Independence as a source of this ("Life, liberty, pursuit of happiness..."), but the Declaration of Independence has nothing to do with establishing our rights in the first place.

Driving is a privilege, owning property is not...it is a right.

You were doing good except at the last part. Although it's a moot point, but I still feel like it should be said. Driving is use of your property, therefore a right. You should have said; driving on a public road is a privilege.

For example, farmers can operate their tractors/trucks on their own land without any permission from authority.

[Gadritan]

For example, farmers can operate their tractors/trucks on their own land without any permission from authority.

The equipment used by commercial farmers is regulated as well. The degree to which it is regulated varies from state to state, but to say they can operate their tractors/trucks on their own land without any permission from an authority is false.

Edit: Wtf am I saying? You have to have a permit to farm to begin with...You can't use your property in whatever fashion you wish to. Land or vehicle this holds true. I have a right to own land. I do not have a right to grow marijuana on it. I do not have the right to grow tobacco in any amount I choose on it, as well as many other plants/vegetables/fruits.

We also have the right to bare arms, which is heavily regulated. Not everyone can own a gun. Not everyone can buy whatever gun they choose. Not everyone can obtain a concealed weapons permit. The argument here is that despite being a right, it has become a privilege as a matter of public safety.

Therefore, driving is a privilege.

[guartz]

The equipment used by commercial farmers is regulated as well. The degree to which it is regulated varies from state to state, but to say they can operate their tractors/trucks on their own land without any permission from an authority is false.

Edit: Wtf am I saying? You have to have a permit to farm to begin with...You can't use your property in whatever fashion you wish to. Land or vehicle this holds true. I have a right to own land. I do not have a right to grow marijuana on it. I do not have the right to grow tobacco in any amount I choose on it, as well as many other plants/vegetables/fruits.

We also have the right to bare arms, which is heavily regulated. Not everyone can own a gun. Not everyone can buy whatever gun they choose. Not everyone can obtain a concealed weapons permit. The argument here is that despite being a right, it has become a privilege as a matter of public safety.

Therefore, driving is a privilege.

Well, in soviet union there was a law that you couldn't say bad things about the government. Therefore, speech is a privilege.

[Max™]

In Soviet America, location on the globe rotates you!

[Gregorio]

Well, in soviet union there was a law that you couldn't say bad things about the government. Therefore, speech is a privilege.

Currently in some parts of Europe, if you deny the Holocaust was anything other than what the ruling authorities say it was you can go to jail.

It doesn't take a commie to deny natural born rights.

[Norellicus]

Hey genius, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the event itself is.

If it was a scientology group, AA, or monkey lovers anonymous the laws would still apply.

Unless of course you're stating that Christians don't have to adhere to the same laws as the rest of the public. Then you'd have a point.

Edit: If it wasn't a bible study it never would have even made news. Scenarios like this have happened to thousands upon thousands of people. Why didn't we hear about it? Oh right, because it wasn't some pompous religious group that feels they're above the law.

Hey genius, if it was a problem with public safety, then FUCKING CITE PUBLIC SAFETY

Not a violation of county ordinance #idfc for failure to obtain a permit to religious assembly

[Ziero]

Cause the law says they are? Again the Cops are just keeping the peace.

The "law" is actually under review right now and cops have nothing to do with this. The County is the one who investigated and brought up the issue.

It's called a social contract, if the guy wants to turn his house into a church, he's welcome to do so, but he has to take the appropriate legal steps, many of which are simply ensuring that he isn't inhibiting his neighbors from having a reasonable expectation of what their living conditions should be.

If the guy next door had weekly parties like the one he had a couple months ago, where there were cars backed up down the street, tons of cars in his driveway, cars in front of our house... I'd have an issue with that because he's impairing our ability to safely come and go, to utilize the space if needed ourselves, and to simply not have to stare at a big pile of cars where there usually is not one.

And how many cars were there exactly? Seeing as you claim there were "tons" of them to the point they were taking up every available spot and becoming a hindrance to the community, you must know the exact amount right? If not then you're just spouting crap out your ass.

I love how the "religious" of this argument has totally glossed over the whole "or get a permit" thing in the complaint and instead latched onto the "stop doing what you are doing".

Because a permit will cost them TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS. So it's either stop having their weekly book club, or pay TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to have it. Do you want to pay TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS just to run a book club with friends?

10~15 people driving cars and taking up parking spaces in a neighborhood which doesn't have driveways, but DOES have an amount of parking spaces to serve each house with a few spares?

You come home each day, park at the spot out in front of your house, go inside.
One day every week, you come home to find your neighbor has their spaces, your spaces, and your neighbors spaces taken up with guests.

10~15 people who each have their own care? A neighborhood with no driveways and only enough parking for one car per home? Happening every day to the point where people who live there have to walk an undetermined distance to actually get into their houses? I would LOVE to know where you get your info because it's certainly not where everyone else who's read the articles posted here and all over google get theirs from.

p.s. the pastor's home has a driveway big enough for 3-4 cars, with space outfront for 2 more. There's also a small parking lot about 30 feet from the house, where the fenderbender actually took place. And on top of that, the person who called in the complaint was a VISITOR to the area, not a resident, so they were taking up "someone else's" spot as well.

And you don't understand. I wouldn't be outraged. Zoning laws exist for a reason. There's nothing to this story. My dad ran a "business" out of his house. He repaired his FRIENDS snowmobiles and boats. He didn't always charge money for his services and would often simply take a pack of beer(That's my pops...) as payment for his work. My dad was slapped with a zoning restriction. Want to know what my back yard looks like?

That's more to do with taxable income then anything else. The county sees your pops making money and wanted in on the cash. They did the same thing to my father who had a hobby/side business of making military miniatures. Work that he could do in his garage or basement or hell sometimes the kitchen table and he still got hit with a "zoning restriction". If it's a business of any kind, no matter how small, the County will tax you for it. Believe me when I say small time government officials are some of the most crooked people you will ever meet.

Not entirely true, I suggested that a bible study was a business when it was led by a preacher who earns his salary via the people that he was instructing, so he was only making up 1/3rd of his post..

Actually he was 3/3 on his comments, people have said "15 cars" (see Max's comment above), 15 people being too much for a single residence, and as you admited, bible study being a "business".

they arent stopping them from peacefully assembling, theyre just telling them they cant hog all the street parking.

Good thing they weren't hogging the street.

Why are you talking about tickets when the issue is zoning regulations?

It was an example of how people blindly follow laws that are painfully outdated and unfair. And how all it takes is one person to go "lolwut" to bring it to light and start invoking a change. Shame you couldn't catch that.

Do you understand the reason and need for permits for religious gatherings?

And the "or" is very important, because it means they werent forced or told to stop doing what they are entitled to do, they just have to abide by the law while doing it. They still get to have their bible studies, they just cant be assholes to their neighbors when they do.

I don't. I don't see 15 people gathering for a religious reason as any different from 15 people gathering for a non religious reason. And having to pay TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS to get a permit to hold a bible study is pretty restrictive. It's not like they just have to sign a piece of paper and be done with it.

Hey genius, it has absolutely nothing to do with what the event itself is.

If it was a scientology group, AA, or monkey lovers anonymous the laws would still apply.

Unless of course you're stating that Christians don't have to adhere to the same laws as the rest of the public. Then you'd have a point.

Edit: If it wasn't a bible study it never would have even made news. Scenarios like this have happened to thousands upon thousands of people. Why didn't we hear about it? Oh right, because it wasn't some pompous religious group that feels they're above the law.

Hey, genius, it DOES have to do with the event itself. The County surveyor specifically questioned the homeowner on the depths and details of their religious gatherings. The official citation specifically forbids their "Religious Assembly" unless they have a permit (which can costs TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS...in case anyone missed that). It wasn't until AFTER the pastor took this to the public that the County tried to rescind the paper work and make it into a traffic issue, because when this all started, it was specifically about the Religious Assembly.

[Max™]

10~15 people who each have their own care? A neighborhood with no driveways and only enough parking for one car per home? Happening every day to the point where people who live there have to walk an undetermined distance to actually get into their houses? I would LOVE to know where you get your info because it's certainly not where everyone else who's read the articles posted here and all over google get theirs from.

p.s. the pastor's home has a driveway big enough for 3-4 cars, with space outfront for 2 more. There's also a small parking lot about 30 feet from the house, where the fenderbender actually took place. And on top of that, the person who called in the complaint was a VISITOR to the area, not a resident, so they were taking up "someone else's" spot as well.

Did I say it was 10~15 people driving 10~15 cars every day?

Didn't think so. I said that is a lot of fucking people, AND if I was able to park in my own spot comfortably every day except their stupid book club day, AND they were taking up other peoples parking spots according to the original story, AND it wasn't about the fact that they were HAVING A FUCKING RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY... it was about the SIZE and FREQUENCY of the assembly.

I wish it was a county cracking down on religious assembly of any sort, but that is another matter entirely, not one related to this case.

Reading is really fucking hard though, just make sure you don't bring a bunch of friends over later to read this story, might get slapped with a major use permit violation.

[Brill Weave]

For the love of fucking Christ nublet don't fucking quote every single point you're making a counterpoint to. What the fuck.

[Ziero]

I don't bother coming here on the weekends so I missed a lot of garbage that needed responding too. Too bad if you don't wanna read it.

Did I say it was 10~15 people driving 10~15 cars every day?

Didn't think so. I said that is a lot of fucking people, AND if I was able to park in my own spot comfortably every day except their stupid book club day, AND they were taking up other peoples parking spots according to the original story, AND it wasn't about the fact that they were HAVING A FUCKING RELIGIOUS ASSEMBLY... it was about the SIZE and FREQUENCY of the assembly.

I wish it was a county cracking down on religious assembly of any sort, but that is another matter entirely, not one related to this case.

Reading is really fucking hard though, just make sure you don't bring a bunch of friends over later to read this story, might get slapped with a major use permit violation.

You're right, I'm sorry, I did misread the "every day" part. But that still doesn't change the fact that you made up the "10~15 people driving cars" and the "a neighborhood which doesn't have driveways, but DOES have an amount of parking spaces to serve each house with a few spares". So where did that info come from exactly?

And yes, the ORIGINAL CITATION was about their "Religious Assembly". You seem to be ignoring the fact that the documents specifically state an "Unlawful use of land" in regards to the "Religious Assembly" and NOT a parking issue. And on top of that, the car that was hit that caused the call to be made was not a resident of the area. It was a guest to someone else' house. Meaning that one visitor bumped another visitor, in which under your rules would mean that BOTH homeowners should be fined, since there is so limited parking. I mean after the 4 car driveway, and two to three spots directly in front of the guys' house and the parking lot about 30' feet away from his home, there's not much room for them to park!

p.s. since you missed it in the original post and when it was linked before, THIS IS THE HOUSE the Pastor lives in. Such a small driveway huh? Also, none of the people who live on the street had complaints, according to the video coverage and interview with one of the neighbors. So again, just want to find out where you get your info from?

[Brill Weave]

Just saying it because a long post doesn't mean your opinion is right. So don't waste your own time quoting up a shitstorm to try to prove yourself right.

[Ziero]

It's not the length of the post that makes me correct, it's the fact I'm basing my comments on facts as well as providing proof to counter absurd and untrue claims!

Besides, I'm bored at work, so wasted time is a good thing.

[Penthesilea]

So I guess that we can take away from this the fact that the zoning officer decided to write down on the citation their specific type of gathering. And that it was still a violation of zoning, not religious zoning.

So yeah, permit or gtfo?