Secrecy of Game Mechanics

[madpersian]

I have a quick poll for the good people on BG.

In your opinion, is the secret nature of FFXI’s mechanics a positive or a negative when compared to a game like WoW (only other MMO I played, not trying to troll) which lays bare the guts of their mechanics?

Basically, if you were going to get into a new mmo and you found out its mechanics were mostly secret and would not be revealed by the developers, would it turn you off from a game or make you more likely to buy it?

I think FFXI’s secrecy is a positive because it fosters community sites where people share their tests and experiences, basically creating a lot of discussion around the game that wouldn’t be there otherwise. It draws a distinct line between the people who care enough to lookup all this info or even research it personally and the people who couldn’t give a crap. Also, it just adds to the mystery of the game and makes it seem more like it’s own world that you have to explore and figure out instead of just a game with everything explained from the beginning.

[Moosey]

I think it's more bad than good. Well, to the extreme that SE does it.

Community collaboration is only helpful to a certain point.(See: AV)

When things in game go for years without being solved, I think that's when secrecy has got a bit too far, or they aren't balancing shit right.

[Pikarya]

SE must dump a good pocket of change for the non-disclosure agreements they must have. You'd think one of the original developers of all this spaghetti code would have came out by now.

[madpersian]

SE must dump a good pocket of change for the non-disclosure agreements they must have. You'd think one of the original developers of all this spaghetti code would have came out by now.

I imagine there is more company loyalty in Japanese culture than Western culture, because you are right. Some of this shit should have leaked out by now.

[Argettio]

Secrecy is ok in 1 of 2 situations:
* It doesn't matter (eg the exact cRatio for 2handers since the buff; we can still win fights without knowing... but knowing helps us be exact about gear choices)
* It is 'easy' enough to work it out. (eg how distance effect /ra damage)

Not knowing how to be AV/PW does matter and it is hard to work out.

Although AV and PW are a little bit of an exception. What would all you lot do with your full salvage sets and relic weapons if you couldn't try a crazy strat on AV now and again.

AV and PW is the EG of the EG.

TH is a better example of something that matters and no one has figure out. What i mean by that is people claiming the THF needs to get the killing blow, or they need to main hand Thief's Knife etc.

I know they have debunked a lot of these myths at fan fests etc, but they could do to be more open about it this sort of thing.

[Isiolia]

IMO, the secrecy by SE is less about "making the community figure it out" and more about "if the community doesn't know how it's supposed to work, then they won't realize it's not working as intended".

They don't need to be giving new players three pages of text from every NPC in effort to detail every bit of game mechanics...but a website, POL section, heck, even a (real) strategy guide would be nice to see.

[Hyan]

I think it's alright that SE doesn't tell everything.. They want the community to figure things out by themselves (and the devs are lazy to tell blahblah). However when it is clear that the community cannot figure out the mechanics/solution to the problem, SE needs to give us a nudge in a reasonable timeframe. Things like Damage or Enmity calculations are things SE shouldn't tell us, but on the case of mobs such as AV and PW (Zhayolm Remnants was close to being one but we figured that out), they should tell us more. Also things like Ranged attack/accuracy, evasion, magical evasion etc. should be known without having to figure it out by ourselves. That's the part that SE mainly failed on in FFXI when it comes to informing us about game mechanics.

Overall I think it's a pretty good thing though.

[drwaffles]

As far as things like PW/AV go, a few hints and tips certainly wouldn't go amiss. But in terms of the actual formulae the game is built on, I don't think they should ever be expected to reveal any of that. If you know exactly how the game works inside out then it simply becomes a gigantic mathematical formula and sort of destroys the whole point of playing - to lose yourself inside an immersive and complex fantasy world.

[Gergall]

I would love to know how Wind/Singing/CHR/Macc match up against each other when trying to land Elegy. This question was specifically asked and the answer was "they each play a role". Sigh...

[Wenslydale]

I blame SE's secrecy for every MOAR STR SAM I see. If they were just open with the mechanics then we wouldn't have people running around creating random theories for how shit works. CHR for Provoke anyone? Crystal drops instead of Gaiters? Evasion Skill vs Evasion+ gear? VIT PLDS?

I'm not saying that I want to be spoon-fed the shit, but someone at SE has got to be doing a wtf? at some of the things players do. Throw us a fricken bone!

[McGoonagle]

As far as things like PW/AV go, a few hints and tips certainly wouldn't go amiss. But in terms of the actual formulae the game is built on, I don't think they should ever be expected to reveal any of that. If you know exactly how the game works inside out then it simply becomes a gigantic mathematical formula and sort of destroys the whole point of playing - to lose yourself inside an immersive and complex fantasy world.

QFT.

Certainly, a litlle more guidance from SE is always going to be helpful, but a lot of the intangibles in the game come from meeting and beating the challenges for yourself.

Then again, advice may be given and ignored. Junior LS member completed his subjob quest and wanted to know why his sub was only lvl 12 when he'd got it to 15. He just clicked through the informational part of the CS when it was finished and didn't pay attention to it.

[drwaffles]

I blame SE's secrecy for every MOAR STR SAM I see. If they were just open with the mechanics then we wouldn't have people running around creating random theories for how shit works. CHR for Provoke anyone? Crystal drops instead of Gaiters? Evasion Skill vs Evasion+ gear? VIT PLDS?

I'm not saying that I want to be spoon-fed the shit, but someone at SE has got to be doing a wtf? at some of the things players do. Throw us a fricken bone!

The game would be incredibly dull if it weren't for people making new discoveries and finding out for themselves what works best in what situation, as well as the odd moron with their half-baked and totally misinformed theories on the game's mechanics.

[Omniyoji]

Wow, what a turn on... Whims who's the girl in your avatar?

She reminds me of an old HS friend...

Sorry for going off topic. I believe secrecy is good thing. Mainly for the same points the OP stated. A gaming community is a powerful thing. Look at what it's done for Street Fighter... >_>;

[Hoshiku]

i think the secrecy is part of what makes XI addictive. reading weblogs of people who figure stuff out through extensive testing and the challenge of trying to figure out new mobs and systems (ixion and assaults come to mind) is part of what keeps you reading about XI even when you're stuck at school/work and can't play. some things perhaps the secrecy is a bit much on (a few more hints on some things would be nice ^^;; )

[Freijah]

Responding before I read the thread, anyway, I get the feeling this is something that comes up alot on BG - I think it's a good question. It's pretty obvious the secrecy stands out in FFXI's 'personality' campaired to other games in the genre.

Something I noticed about WoW communities was how people often talked about 'their' class, the endgame seemed mostly obsessed with what that class should be able to do, and what others shouldn't, including the math. I know it's different because PvP has to be balanced in WoW, but in FFXI the Jobs don't work like that. It seems like more character and personaily comes through in FFXI, even though in alot of ways the Jobs are more rigid, I think it works better than Talent Trees.

In WoW, you obtain gear because it meets the requirements of you actually surviving the next tier. Which is a good thing because that tier drops items that will see you through the next, and so on. Your Talents, by the way, are taken care of because the math says so.

FFXI... Is kinda, hard to explain. Now, in theory, I think - It's just a theory because we can't be 100% on the math - a balanced Alliance wearing full AF through-out, could down a fairly substantial amount of the game's content. But that's a silly idea, and should be frowned upon... sorry.

I think the gear-obtaining, which crawls you foward 1Acc, or 10Mp at a time perpetually forever and ever and ever 'till you quit, come back, get banned, etc, has less significance than the time you spend getting it, and the people you were with.

I remember recently new content being added in WoW, and before it went live their was maps and working stratagies coming through from open test servers or whatever it is they have.

New content got added in FFXI and some months(?) later people were DIEING, LIKE IN REAL LIFE, because a bad guy was bad. Imagine the comaradity people!

The whole endgame community of FFXI is like the test server, and the Devs just keep throwing out these kooky ideas at as with clues as read by Moogles. Thanks, kupo. Anyway, I think it's a quiet good thing, it's like being in a labrynth with some strangers and you're all abit in the dark about where you're going, but one of you heard a rumour about Ebon Panels, {Over there.}.

[Pendulum]

They shouldn't release all the formulae etc but would it really have been that hard to show stuff like ranged attack (and maybe even ranged/melee/magic accuracy) in a menu like attack and defence appear on the equipment menu?

[ronin sparthos]

Edit: Woops

[ronin sparthos]

They shouldn't release all the formulae etc but would it really have been that hard to show stuff like ranged attack (and maybe even ranged/melee/magic accuracy) in a menu like attack and defence appear on the equipment menu?

This. Its absolutely frustrating playing jobs like Ranger or Corsair where the ranged attack is simply not displayed for whatever reason. I wouldn't want SE to reveal everything but so much is kept under wraps for no reason. Examples?

-Food effects
-"How many hits in my multi-hit attack just connected?"
-"How much total damage did my DoT effect do?"
-"Something like Double Attack proc'd but how would I know?"

To a lesser extent, things like Corsair/Bard buffs are poorly displayed with other players not being able to know the true effects of your buffs. The least you could get is a prompt when something like the Commodore Tricorne proc's and information displayed regarding the current potency of buffs.

Accuracy may be a harder status to show but im sure it could get better than the current "It seems to have High Evasion". Hey SE? Im on Ranger using a Staff.... everything has high evasion and defense!

[Zosi]

It's silly that they're selectively secret. When you open up your equip screen, you can see one melee attack stat and one melee defense stat, and that's it. When you check a mob, you get a relative measurement of your accuracy versus their evasion and your attack versus their defense. That'd be possibly acceptable if the game had nothing but melee attacks, but mages of all kinds are totally screwed, which is a major reason why it literally took years to figure out basic mage game mechanics that melees have known for years.

[BRP]

Only portions of secrecy are bad. I voted "good" because it is such a broad question.

NMs are secrecy that are good either way. The fact no one has figured it out just shows there wasn't enough clues. That's assuming they are not all just tests of brute force.

EDIT: They can keep maxes a secret, but every item/food/equipment should tell you what it does to you specifically. Resist Paralyze+1, Ranged Attack+1%, Focus Duration +30 secs, etc etc.