Dragon Age Origins

[Tits]

Is the gist of your argument that there is not a single RPG on a home console or computer? You seem quite insistent that the only RPG ever was D&D. You have said that if it doesn't let you do anything, any time you want, it is not an RPG.

IF your intent is to counter with NWN, I will retort with "elohel aurora toolset limitations." Just putting that out there now.


EDIT ADD: It would be unfair to accuse you of restricting the classification of RPG to D&D when you are clearly indicating any tabletop game that involves a DM who makes up a story to play out. In that respect, I withdraw the second sentence and rephrase to "You seem quite insistent that the only RPGs ever are tabletop games."

[Mayareira]

Well, BRP I've read enough of it back in the discussion at advanced. I'll do it again though.

I am not "stripping" away anything. I am only prioritizing things. At some point things stop being essential to genre definition and are simply characteristics of individual games. Such characteristics like character customization, free-roaming, multiplayer(online, MMO, or otherwise), "stat progression," and even something smaller like "survival horror" themes. These characteristics are never dependent on genre and almost ALL of them can be found in almost EVERY genre. You can have free-roaming RTS and "stat progression" FPS. This is why they are not genres. These characteristics are already implied in name of the series and game. These characteristics is what splits Final Fantasy from Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy IX from Final Fantasy X, getting more and more specific.

You must keep these characteristics out of the equation of genre because a game cannot be in more than one genre(hybrid genres are separate genres.) What you have left is the very essence of the game. It shouldn't be a surprise that most games revolve around a battle system. Though "battle" implies combat when combat is itself just an aesthetic theme anyway(which comes in many, many flavors.)

This is partially true, in order to be different or add depth certain genres do borrow certain characteristics of other genres. But what the game prioritizes is the key here.

A FPS game with "decent/average" combat mechanics, is a decent game at best because that's its genre-defining aspect. On the other hand, a CRPG like Oblivion with not-so-great combat system can still very well be a good/great RPG. You may not like the game of course, that's a different story.

But then there is Wikipedia's fine list of "Oh, if it contains any ONE or more of these ten random as fuck attributes, its a RPG!" Yeah, well they are fucking wrong. So very, very wrong. This proves itself when you have genres in videogames as completely useless as they are today. Judge through difference. (PS: It's Wikipedia, goddamn.)

This is correct, but doesn't help with your case. Let's take Hexen as an example.

Fantasy Setting: Check.
Axes, Magic, etc.: Check.
RPG'ish Inventory System: Check.
Exploration: Check...ish, linear, but a huge map.
Genre: FPS! Reason? Because it focuses on the action and designed as a FPS game. It doesn't center around exploration, interaction, etc.

To get back to the idea that I am stripping down games... for example: If I was reviewing Fallout 3 I would still talk a lot about the exploration within it(the game's highlight.) After that I would mention things like storyline, graphics, mood, themes, etc etc. But before all of the above, I would talk about the very thing the game revolves around: the combat system. If it had good exploration and mediocre combat(which is true) it would be a 3/5 type of game.

You are wrong here, Fallout 3 is a good game even with its mediocre combat system...and this is exactly what I was talking about. If you were a professional reviewer, you wouldn't be the right person to review a RPG game. You'd just end up like the IGN guy who compared Worldwide Soccer Manager(Management SIM) to FIFA and ultimately ended up removing the review a week after.

A FPS, with Fallout's battle system would be a 2/5 game at best while Fallout is a 4.5/5 game for me(again, you may disagree here...that's not the point).

]And the same applies to quests which do not change other quests. This is how you judge a RPG's depth of role-playing(how good a DM is): how interconnected everything is. If you do a quest in Fallout 3 with some outcome and it doesn't change the game's main story(or at minimum the region's story) then that quest has failed at being a RPG quest. It is no different than something out of a MMO's "collect for me, adventurerrrr, 5 boar heads" no matter how many cutscenes and dialogue trees you throw into it. At best you'll trick someone into thinking the fictional world is more complicated than it truly is. (Instead of turning 1 into 2, you turn 1 into 2 into 8 into 100 into...)

These make Fallout 3 a "light-RPG", not a FPS. Again, you are trying to justify calling it a FPS just because it doesn't completely fulfill the requirements of a complete RPG. And here, you ignore the fact that it simply doesn't have genre-defining qualities of a shooter...it doesn't even get anywhere near it.

In Dungeon and Dragons, when the adventuring party decides they want to go East instead of West, they don't only go East on a map... the entire game has changed. When they want to join the bad guys? Take a hostage? These are not only strategic decisions(DnD is 2/5 wargame, 3/5 RPG btw) they are role-playing. This is the (impossible) goal of RPG on computers. I said I would be brief, so despite how long this is already I am skipping over a lot.

CRPG's have shaped up differently than what players were expecting like...10-15 years ago....probably because of the financial concerns. Its not like in the past anymore where a group of talented programmers get together and write a game.

In order to survive, developers had to broaden their customer base. If a game doesn't sell well, its a failure. As simple as that. Traditional, strict RPG formula doesn't appeal to the majority of the gamers at this time and age....sucks, I know but its the fact. Try comparing the success of Dagerfall and Oblivion.

[BRP]

NWN's multiplayer isn't really a RPG because it is more like a set of tools to play DnD on the computer.

Is the gist of your argument that there is not a single RPG on a home console or computer?

Pretty much is the case. It all depends on how much you want to consider enough. Deus Ex could be a RPG because of the way it is structured. Or you can say there won't be RPGs until we start using human-like AIs for videogames. Doesn't matter right now, because only thing I want to make clear is what is not a RPG.

You have said that if it doesn't let you do anything, any time you want, it is not an RPG.

No I haven't. I merely mentioned the requirement of deep narrative freedom. This is opposed to good and evil ends of quests which ultimately doesn't change the scenario in a way that matters.

The real RPGs, the tabletops, are just the goal for the computer games to catch up to. It might seem like an impossible goal, but that's only because you are thinking about RIGHT NOW. Look at the bigger picture. 50 years from now. 100 years. 1000 years.

Though I am the type who is satisfied enough with Deus Ex and would simply like people to improve on that formula properly. (No such luck...)

[BRP]

But what the game prioritizes is the key here.

True, but you have to understand no one gets to pick that. A developer can't make a shitty FPS and say "Oh, but the game prioritizes on exploration." We have to observe it, which is what I do. (The end result is genre)

A FPS game with "decent/average" combat mechanics, is a decent game at best because that's its genre-defining aspect. On the other hand, a CRPG like Oblivion with not-so-great combat system can still very well be a good/great RPG. You may not like the game of course, that's a different story.

Here lies one example why proper genre knowledge is more than a little useful, thank you for it. "Final Fantasy isn't a bad game you see, it is just the type of game that is allowed suck. Shit battle system and full of long boring parts, that's just part of the charm!"

The quality you mention about Oblivion, this "something" (exploration, right?), isn't unique to CRPGs. You can praise Oblivion for having it, it might even be incredible, but it will never be enough to outweigh Oblivion's core: the battle system. At best you are looking at a 3/5 game, and fuck man... the game's exploration must make Oblivion huge boring ass world look like a joke. I mean it should shit rainbows. No games does this, hypothetical.

If you were a professional reviewer, you wouldn't be the right person to review a RPG game.

Hahaha. Man...

You'd just end up like the IGN guy who compared Worldwide Soccer Manager(Management SIM) to FIFA and ultimately ended up removing the review a week after.

The exact opposite is true. I am the guy who pays most attention to the actual mechanics over the aesthetics. If you can't capture that obvious quality of my outlook then you will never even be able to understand my paragraphs(a likely case.) I wouldn't even review Metroid and Metroid Prime as the same series, let alone your example. Meanwhile, we are having this RPG debate where you are doing exactly what you seem to accuse me of. Oh well.

In order to survive, developers had to broaden their customer base. If a game doesn't sell well, its a failure. As simple as that. Traditional, strict RPG formula doesn't appeal to the majority of the gamers at this time and age....sucks, I know but its the fact. Try comparing the success of Dagerfall and Oblivion.

This has fuck-all to do with anything here.

As for the other "RPG" stuff, I already explained that is all strategic and it isn't worth bringing up again.

[Tits]

The necessary statements have been made all around, people can choose to laugh at whomever they wish. As Atreides stated, we should return to the true subject at hand.

[Brill Weave]

Hey. How about this. Let's talk about the fucking game instead of carrying on any further about what it's classified as. I will be picking it up and I'm pretty excited about it. But I'm also a bit of a Bioware fanboy >.<

Nvm. Aeri beat me to it. BRP will you be buying this game, and why? Your answer better not be twelve paragraphs or I'm gonna keel u.

[Qalbert]

HOW ABOUT THIS.
Fallout, Oblivion, Dragon Age and whatever the hell else you want, are games incorporating a wide variety of components, FPS traits, RPG characteristics and so on. Instead of getting mired in the shit of classifying a genre, how about we just call it a game, and then decide whether or not it is a good one. If a game is shit, it will be shit whether we call it an RPG or an FPS.

Dragon Age definitely has a lot of potential but having not played it at all I am hesitant somewhat to say whether it'll be good or not. It looks good enough that I have preordered it, and Bioware has a good track record, but I'm not dying to play it or anything.

[Brill Weave]

How about shut the fuck up Qalbert.





















I kid.

[Kyo]

HOW ABOUT THIS.
Fallout, Oblivion, Dragon Age and whatever the hell else you want, are games incorporating a wide variety of components, FPS traits, RPG characteristics and so on. Instead of getting mired in the shit of classifying a genre, how about we just call it a game, and then decide whether or not it is a good one. If a game is shit, it will be shit whether we call it an RPG or an FPS.

Dragon Age definitely has a lot of potential but having not played it at all I am hesitant somewhat to say whether it'll be good or not. It looks good enough that I have preordered it, and Bioware has a good track record, but I'm not dying to play it or anything.

Im dying to play with you Qalbert.

[Atreides]

I don't have anyone from BG on my xbox live

someone add me~

[Kyo]

I don't have anyone from BG on my xbox live

someone add me~

Get a PS3 and we'll talk.

[Atreides]

i have a ps3 also, but I don't use it as much

jaredlared on psn
hawtpants on xbl

[Isiolia]

I'll be getting it unless they somehow screw up royally. I've enjoyed all the Bioware games I've played.

I would agree that, in an ideal world, we'd see the level of role-play that BRP has mentioned - but I know realistically that we probably won't. Stuff like this is trying to allow for choice - maybe that all ultimately leads to the same end boss fight, but still, it's baby steps on the path to getting to more open ended games. In the meantime, I'll continue to call 'em RPGs, since that's what they're trying, in some way, to be.

I'm hoping Dragon Age will progress the genre in that respect - most of the "choice" things they've mentioned have been done in their prior games, but it's certainly possible, if not likely, that they'll do them to more of an extreme.

[Brill Weave]

I would honestly love a 360/PS3 Baldur's Gate 3. I loved the prior two.

[Kyo]

I would honestly love a 360/PS3 Baldur's Gate 3. I loved the prior two.

ANother Champions of Norrath would be fantastic too.

[Brill Weave]

Agreed. But nobody listens to us

[Qalbert]

http://www.facebook.com/ext/share.ph...u=_xYq9&ref=mf
loosely relevant, think its from random image thread
if it was posted in here already then I am a moron

[BRP]

If it has the good points of Balder's Gate, I might just play it. If it is "consolized" and the combat system is as boring as it looks I will be turned off.

I will probably give it a shot anyway. If it bogs you down every step of the way, I just won't finish it.

[Brill Weave]

Well I got my new Game Informer in the mail yesterday and they seemed pretty high on it. The review stated it wasn't going to break the chains when it comes to inovative new graphics etc but that it was just damn fun. So we'll see.

[Qalbert]

Dragon Age: Origins Character Creator Hits PCs Soon - Dragon age: origins - Kotaku

BioWare will be releasing the Dragon Age: Origins Character Creator on October 13, letting PC gamers get over the game's biggest hurdle, selecting just how muscle bound or minimally clothed you want your characters to be.

According to the official Dragon Age web site, the tool will let potential players "experiment with the different classes, races, and create multiple faces for the 6 Origin stories and save them to your hard drive for safe keeping." Then, on November 3, you should be good to go, faces and races just the way you like 'em!