June: LBGT Pride Month, per Obama proclamation

[Daydreamer]

First of all...fuck it's my birthday month (actually today technically). Now I have the gay month. Secondly any type of specific "--- month" is ridiculous and racist/sexist no matter how you definte it.

Hey it's my birthday too! Happy birthday to both of us!

[Demosthenes11]

There's a fascinating thing i've noticed a lot. Classical liberal ideology often says that people act according to their interests. So, for example, it may not be in Obama's interest to hold a position over this as it would be too polarizing for his political capital. The fascinating thing is, it's the people other than him that seem to adopt his interests as their own. So for example, if you have a liberal who believes in equal rights or something, you'd assume his interests would lie with supporting equal rights and denouncing inequality. Was it it then, that would drive these same people to disregard their beliefs for the sake of someone else's interest?

Two things: If said person doesn't agree with marriage for homosexuals, then the position makes sense, it's a good compromise for them; the president may not oppose it, but he also does not support it. But in the case of someone who does in fact agree with marriage for homosexuals, the only logical conclusion i can come up with is that they don't consider specific aspects of their ideology, IE equality for all, to be more important than other parts of it, for if Obama has a lot of political capital, they believe Obama will achieve success in the other things they agree with and find much more important.

All that to say that excusing Obama on this is bullshit.

this is the best post I've read on bg in many months

[Nirokun!]

The best solution (without getting into commonlaw marriages or other paradigms like that) would be to completely eliminate the word "marriage" from the law. Make all such partnerships at the state and federal levels into civil unions, and reserve marriage as a buzzword for religious organizations. That way everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and marriage is left alone.

agreed.

it would make everyone who wants traditional "marriage" rights apply for them through Civil Unions via a court or other secular organization. The word "marriage" can be thrown around and have meaning among the groups that use them, like Bar Mitzvah doesn't mean anything to non-jewish people. That 13yo boy isnt suddenly recognized as a man to anyone but the people in his (however large) jewish community.

If you cant get a priest, get a drag queen (or whatever you find terribly hilarious) in a priest outfit, it will be more fun :D Everyone gets their happy ceremony~

[thatwasnifty]

If you cant get a priest, get a drag queen (or whatever you find terribly hilarious) in a priest outfit, it will be more fun :D Everyone gets their happy ceremony~

You've just given me a great idea for my own wedding!

[Vuitton]

You gays shouldn't be proud cause you're all going straight to the bowels of hell.

Its not really hell if they've douched their ass nice and clean. I won't bottom without doing so, and I won't top someone who isn't clean either.

;P

[Beckwin]

kuya, please learn that there's other ways to look at things rather than "all or nothing"

[archibaldcrane]

kuya, please learn that there's other ways to look at things rather than "all or nothing"

While that may be so, Obama's position is political horseshit. It's not something to be admired, it's not exhibiting leadership. I get -why- he's doing it, but that doesn't make it ok.

He does a lot of things right, but I'm not going to pretend like he's right here. I would be very surprised if his position is the same 7 years from now (assuming a 2nd term), but still.

[Beckwin]

I agree that the ideologically right answer is to endorse marriage for homosexuals, but in the contemporary political climate, Obama's position is about as far in favor of gay rights as you could reasonably expect from any potential president and most federal elected officials.

While I'd certainly like to see the lightswitch flipped, I'm still glad to see that we could be making some progress (even if it's not the whole 9 yards).

[Skjie]

Declaring a month pride month is barely progress. Hell, creating a commission into looking into ways to promote gay marriage in America would be more progress.

[Kuya]

My post wasn't talking about all or nothing, rather, it was referring to how a person who cares more about Obama's political capital than gay rights should be honest about it and go out and say it instead of using euphemisms. Just say: "i care more about Obama's political capital than gay rights". It's not really something you should be ashamed of, although it would call into question whether you made this thread just to celebrate even the smallest thing Obama does (judging by the reaction in this thread, i think it's accurate to say small) or because it's supposed to be genuinely some achievement for gay rights. Judging from your defenses, it seems to be the former, but i repeat, it's not something you should be ashamed about and should probably just be honest about it.

[Beckwin]

What if I believe a careful managing of political capital by Obama has far greater potential/likelihood to actually positively change the situation regarding gay rights than him taking an absolutist (though strictly in reference to morals/ideology, superior) stance?

I think you're missing the bigger picture here. As I keep saying, it'd be great if we could just flip the switch, but sadly it just won't happen like that. I think you have to agree with me somewhat on that notion- you and I both know that America will not just wake up one day and nearly unanimously decide to give gays full, equal and unabridged rights as equally protected citizens.

[Kuya]

I thought it was more practical to aim for complete civil unions, by complete i mean with all the benefits of marriage and then after that was obtained, they could slowly aim for marriage itself, but since it was decided that that wasn't enough, i have no choice but to go along with it. Even so to act excited about Obama making a whole gay month official whilst he does not make his position clearer, or rather, more similar to his liberal leanings seems like a joke to me.

[Beckwin]

you comment about my excitement, but in my OP I noted how I really wish he would stop sidestepping the marriage issue (despite it most likely not being the best option in the long term), and that he previously said he was delaying DADT (ending it promptly was a campaign promise, iirc)... honestly man, I think you try a little too hard to grill me for being a "fake liberal" or something.

I made the topic to speculate future moves and explore what the declaration might mean. it's lip service, but somewhat controversial/"exciting" considering the source (Prez) and current American social/political climate.

[Kuya]

You're still on that fake liberal thing? lol

But seriously, it's not so much that he's side stepping the marriage issue (well yes, it is that), but that it is insulting for him to go on and try to declare june gay month or something while side stepping the marriage issue. Talk about bullshit. And one wonders why in the world you would seemingly criticize his side stepping in the OP and then... defend his side stepping later on.

[Shinryuu]

When will people learn that positive discrimination is discrimination too? It's not going to help, the only way to normalize homosexuality is to treat it as being, y'know, normal. Because it is.

[Beckwin]

When will people learn that positive discrimination is discrimination too? It's not going to help, the only way to normalize homosexuality is to treat it as being, y'know, normal. Because it is.

Agree but only with certain conditions. Otherwise taking that stance can easily allow for problems to be publicly ignored. Keep in mind you come from a very different environment regarding homosexuality than what is the norm in America; we still fire people/beat people/etc just for being gay. When you take your stance in America, you end up with Ronald Reagan-esque stances ("I remember a time in America when we had no race problems").

You're still on that fake liberal thing? lol

But seriously, it's not so much that he's side stepping the marriage issue (well yes, it is that), but that it is insulting for him to go on and try to declare june gay month or something while side stepping the marriage issue. Talk about bullshit. And one wonders why in the world you would seemingly criticize his side stepping in the OP and then... defend his side stepping later on.

I "defend" his side-stepping in that I can see why he's doing it. I do disagree on an ideological level with separate but equal, yet from a standpoint of feasible action, I don't think it's the proper climate right now to go all the way- it'd only fuel a wave of right-wing reaction and turn gay marriage into the next abortion. That climate is disappointing, sure.

And even though giving gays marriage but calling it something else is unethical, you have to admit it would be a practical improvement from the current reality of denied health benefits, lack of tax breaks, inability to adopt, lack of visitation rights, etc in so many states.

Think of it this way: I ideologically identify strongly with socialism, and therefor find many things I encounter in my day-to-day life unethical. Despite that, I still have to work within the current structure- I have to work for a boss, still have to buy things, still live in a hierarchical society. The actual changes I can effect, or try to, aren't very big, but it's progress nonetheless. The idea is that eventually the conditions will be there to get things right.

Luckily, I forsee the conditions for gays to get it right will be much sooner than for socialists, lol.

[Skjie]

What's interesting is that in Canada we still do have violence toward Gays, and there is a vocal minority who are still against Gay Marriage in Canada. The difference appears to be twofold: first that the gay issue has been defused for the average Canadian, we just don't see it as a major issue anymore, even for those against it, there are more important things. Second is that we have a very strong tradition of upholding our Charter of Rights through our court system. Even if we think something is morally wrong, if the law says it is legal that is generally the end of it.

A lot of Americans don't realize that historically Canada is far more conservative than America on a lot of topics, we just apparently have a stronger justice tradition.

Edit: http://www.canada.com/Centre+offers+...560/story.html
While I would love to say Canada is love and sunshine all the time, violence does exist, even in Vancouver.

[Yuri-G]

gay "pride" is a joke. I have no more pride in the fact that I'm gay than I do in the fact that I'm white, or the fact that I'm 6' tall. in fact I'm probably more proud that I'm 6' tall, at least that's somewhat positive in the right light. being gay is neither negative or positive to me, it just is (unless you're talking about HIV positive hyuck hyuck).

that said, I understand the need and the meaning behind gay pride. I just think gay pride is an unfortunate term for it. however, I can't really think of anything better.

just as long as we don't ever get a gay history month. that would be too much for even me.

and lay off obama. he's trying to do his best to work with both sides. I'm sure he'd love for gay people to get married if he could let it happen. I really do believe that. but he's a politician, and he has to play the game, and if you haven't noticed he's actually pretty good at it. so hopefully that will produce some nice results before long.

[Correction]

I view the 'LBGT community' with the same filter as the 'retired community.' I just don't buy that there could be that many people in one 'community' with a unifiable vision of how their lives should be. It just seems like a convenient front for fundraisers and little else, anything else they share in common is coincidental.

[Yuri-G]

it's more complex than that, I think. it's becoming more like what you're thinking of, but we're not quite there yet. as the civil rights issues become less and less important, I think reality will become closer and closer to your viewpoint. but right now, there are still more things that bind all gay people together than there are for retirees, in my opinion.

but you are right to a degree. a lot of people see a gay club and think "oh, that's what gay people are like." what they don't realize is that there are plenty of gay people who hate that shit. there are plenty of gay hippies, gay punks, gay thugs, etc. shows like Queer as Folk and Will and Grace may have done a lot to make gay people more accepted in mainstream society (I really believe that), but they did a lot of damage in some ways too, by giving people this idea of a homogenized gay cultural norm. but the good done was greater than the harm, and it's easier for people to learn to accept gay people if they can pinhole them into one small category. once they've accepted gay people, they can eventually take the next step and realize that gay people are gay people, not just gays.