Obama: The United States is "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world"

[Plow]

I realize what the concept entails but the first link you gave (limbo one I think) stated that next to no denominations believe in it anymore so as far as they, and this conversation, are concerned there are no limbo'ish states. At the most a limbo did exist for people who lived before christ but since that was 2000 years ago it's useless for this discussion.

The idea that we all get a final chance to repent is nice to think about but the idea hasn't born out with how christians act (getting people on death bed to repent, why do that if they can repent after death) and in general beliefs as stated in the above paragraph.

"Limbo" itself is not an "official doctrine."

However, if you go through the actual links, particularly the *other* 2 links, you'll see that the basic concept exists through pretty much all of Abrahamic religion.

Are you forgetting about Revelations, and Judgment day etc.?

A lot of people see the intention so far as even everybody that dies just lays there, sleeping, until Judgment Day comes. Others see it as we're sent to either heaven or hell to await Judgement Day, still others see it as we're sent to a kind of limbo until then, or as the primary Jewish belief, that we're sent to a limbo type area for about a year and presented with our wrongs etc. then.

C'mon, you're the sensible one seeing both sides of the discussion, don't go reading 1 of the first sentences is a group of links and dismissing it all ><

shit, did I say "moderate intelligence"? I meant fucking retards. Talk 'bout a parapraxis...

nah I'm kidding.



edit: But seriously, who defends religion anymore?

A lot of people defend religion as a positive thing when it's not skewed by people for their own uses/gains.

But that's not what this is about, this is about Neo making the claim that Jesus agreeing with the concept of Heaven and Hell makes him worse than Hitler.

[Plow]

I want a theist to give a better arguement than "lolfaith". Where is the quantum physicist that sees god in the nth order of an atomic state? Where is the astro-physicist that sees god in the symmetry of celestial mechanics? I just want an opponent that presents an argument based on more than "lol my parents told me this and I believe them".

First off, no, you just want an actual theist of a specific religion with firm beliefs in literal interpretations, so you can argue shit like "Thunder is God bowling!"


Secondly, I've personally, in this thread, given examples of how I see things like Noah's ark as a way of describing the scientific extinctions we do know of, etc. In the other thread, I've discussed how we can take science to amazing levels, but it sure as hell looks like there's some force behind it all, making these laws we're able to decipher exist in the first place.

[Blarg]

"Limbo" itself is not an "official doctrine."

However, if you go through the actual links, particularly the *other* 2 links, you'll see that the basic concept exists through pretty much all of Abrahamic religion.

Are you forgetting about Revelations, and Judgment day etc.?

A lot of people see the intention so far as even everybody that dies just lays there, sleeping, until Judgment Day comes. Others see it as we're sent to either heaven or hell to await Judgement Day, still others see it as we're sent to a kind of limbo until then, or as the primary Jewish belief, that we're sent to a limbo type area for about a year and presented with our wrongs etc. then.

C'mon, you're the sensible one seeing both sides of the discussion, don't go reading 1 of the first sentences is a group of links and dismissing it all ><

Yes I realize it exists (in the bible) but I have also seen Christians quote scripture 'proving' that there is no limbo. The contradiction (scripture for and aginst limbo) shouldn't come as a surprise as far as the bible goes. The reason that I am basically disregarding limbo is that over the years of watching youtube style videos and debates on religion I can't remember 1 time any christian talked about believing in it.

I can't remember what started the limbo talk so that's all i'm going to say until I remember or go back a page or 2 and read it tomorrow.

[Plow]

The idea that there is a time after you die when "all is revealed as true" and you are given the opportunity to repent.



I simply used limbo as the simplest, most obvious example. Move past it and consider the rest.

[Neosutra]

First off, no, you just want an actual theist of a specific religion with firm beliefs in literal interpretations, so you can argue shit like "Thunder is God bowling!"


Secondly, I've personally, in this thread, given examples of how I see things like Noah's ark as a way of describing the scientific extinctions we do know of, etc. In the other thread, I've discussed how we can take science to amazing levels, but it sure as hell looks like there's some force behind it all, making these laws we're able to decipher exist in the first place.

Wait wait wait. Did I really miss you attributing Noah's Ark to actual scientific extinctions/planetary changes?

Right after you just attempted to justify your assertations on Limbo with 1 line in lolRevelations?

Then, did you finish it all off with saying god is the force behind all scientific law?

Fucking trifecta of ignorance here.

1. There has been no massive flood that has wiped out the species of this planet, especially not since our species has gotten here. Combine that with the physical impossibility of getting all species on a boat, and you need to take the story for what it is: Mythology. And it wasnt even originally hebrew mythology.

2. Limbo is not suggested in any version of any biblical text. It was a poor idea tossed around a while back by churches that wanted people to feel better when they said "what about my grandpa that didnt get a chance to know jesus before he died?!". The idea has long since died, stop trying to defend it. I know we are talking about religion here, but you can just make shit up in the middle of the arguement. Drop it, it's a lost argument.

3. Our "laws" of science are simple observations of universal reactions, and dont imply or suggest (in any way) a supernatural driving force. The entire point of these laws and most of our theories on the universe is to explain PHYSICAL causes for these actions, and not "magic".

There is no scientific law or theory that suggest there is a god behind anything. Period.

[Dimmauk]

God is really an Alien Scientist experimenting on us all. There has to be something behind science right?

[guartz]

But that's not what this is about, this is about Neo making the claim that Jesus agreeing with the concept of Heaven and Hell makes him worse than Hitler.

He's right though. >.>

Since one of them is a mythical creature, it wouldn't be fair to make a side by side comparison. So just look at the affect on society. Hitler caused deaths of millions, torture for years.

Jesus caused the death of billions and torture for centuries.

I know what your argument is gonna be, well, Jesus had no control over what people do, free will, he didn't actually want people to kill each other.

First of all, how the fuck do you know? Maybe he planned it all.

Secondly, Hitler didn't actually order Europe Jews to be slaughtered, he just asked for a solution. Hell, maybe he wanted to move them all to florida, who knows?

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

Secondly, Hitler didn't actually order Europe Jews to be slaughtered, he just asked for a solution. Hell, maybe he wanted to move them all to florida, who knows?

Holy shit I wouldn't touch that statement with Plow's dick and Kuya pushing.

[Dimmauk]

He's right though. >.>

Since one of them is a mythical creature, it wouldn't be fair to make a side by side comparison. So just look at the affect on society. Hitler caused deaths of millions, torture for years.

Jesus caused the death of billions and torture for centuries.

I know what your argument is gonna be, well, Jesus had no control over what people do, free will, he didn't actually want people to kill each other.

First of all, how the fuck do you know? Maybe he planned it all.

Secondly, Hitler didn't actually order Europe Jews to be slaughtered, he just asked for a solution. Hell, maybe he wanted to move them all to florida, who knows?

Just when you think this thread couldn't hit a new level of retard.

[Elvis]

He wanted to move them to Madagascar at first I think. Then he just decided on extermination.

I think few people (like the average American - myself included) know about the details of the Holocaust. We simply accept it as we would accept any other widely reported historical event. However, with all the troubles in the ME and the Israel-Palestine conflict and the exploitation of Jewish suffering for political gain - it's important to read up on it to *know* what happened as opposed to *believing*.

I hate the term 'Holocaust denier'. Same for the Armenian Genocide.

It's like people are accusing you of 'denying' the existence of God. It becomes a religion rather than a historical event that is to be studied.

I don't see a reason to be skeptical of the official story because it's all been well-documented.

However, many people BECOME skeptical due to ME geopolitics and the Stalinist tactics of the Jewish Zionist groups like the ADL in pushing through hate-speech legislation that criminalizes the 'denial'. I think in some European countries it is illegal to 'deny' the Holocaust.

As a matter of principle - it's a travesty.

This will only create more resentment and genuine antisemitism because these laws are suppressing freedom of expression.

I just ordered this book - The Destruction of the European Jews, by Raul Hilberg.

It's supposed to be the best historical book on the Holocaust.

Hilberg was THE pre-eminent Holocaust scholar and historian (often called the 'Dean' of Holocaust studies) and he cared about the truth - despite political ideology. He supported controversial political scientist and professor, Norman Finkelstein (Jewish son of Holocaust survivors of Auschwitz, the Warsaw Ghetto, and Majdanek concentration camp), when Norman wrote his book, The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering.

Finkelstein is a very passionate defender of the Palestinian cause and a controversial intellectual - his books often deal w/ taboo issues like the exploitation of the Holocaust.

Hilberg on Finkelstein:

[...]Finkelstein, when he published this book, was alone. It takes an enormous amount of academic courage to speak the truth when no one else is out there to support him. And so, I think that given this acuity of vision and analytical power, demonstrating that the Swiss banks did not owe the money, that even though survivors were beneficiaries of the funds that were distributed, they came, when all is said and done, from places that were not obligated to pay that money. That takes a great amount of courage in and of itself. So I would say that his place in the whole history of writing history is assured, and that those who in the end are proven right triumph, and he will be among those who will have triumphed, albeit, it so seems, at great cost.

[Neosutra]

Im confused as to what you are implying Elvis. The holocaust didnt happen? 3 mil+ jews werent exterminated like cattle? Or just that they use this fact to justify current actions?

Not even sure where you are going with the bank payouts to survivor's and relatives of those killed..

[Lee]

Jesus Christ, Elvis manages to bring up the Palestinian stuff in every god damned thread I stumble upon. Even though it gets annoying to predict, I can't help but admire you for your dedication to it.

[Demosthenes11]

He's right though. >.>

Since one of them is a mythical creature, it wouldn't be fair to make a side by side comparison. So just look at the affect on society. Hitler caused deaths of millions, torture for years.

Jesus caused the death of billions and torture for centuries.

I know what your argument is gonna be, well, Jesus had no control over what people do, free will, he didn't actually want people to kill each other.

First of all, how the fuck do you know? Maybe he planned it all.

Secondly, Hitler didn't actually order Europe Jews to be slaughtered, he just asked for a solution. Hell, maybe he wanted to move them all to florida, who knows?

O.O

[Elvis]

No, I'm (maybe jumping to conclusions here) trying to explain Guartz's comments.

I accept that the Holocaust happened but I don't know much about it. That's the point - we accept it as we would accept most historical events (which is fine). Yet, the reactions to criticism of the Holocaust (as a historical event) is very different from the skepticism of other historical events.

Skepticism in excess is a logical fallacy. And there is a threshold for opinion when after a certain point it becomes self-delusion.

The Holocaust should not be mystified or worshiped. I don't mean people literally worship the Holocaust, but rather react to dissent on the widely accepted account of the Holocaust as heresy.

The principle of freedom of expression must be advocated for views we despise if we are to take the principle seriously at all.

The main point of promoting free speech on this issue is ironically for political purposes as well - I think people use the Holocaust to justify their own crimes. We constantly call enemies of the State, 'Hitler' or 'Nazis'.

If we can demystify the Holocaust - which does not imply promoting genuine denial of it's occurrence (which passes that threshold of a reasonable opinion, into the territory of self-delusion for ideological purposes) - then we can de-fang the war-mongers in the Western body politic.

So the *act* of promoting free speech in this regard is about the principle of free speech and advancing the social consciousness and awareness of the Holocaust with regard to American foreign policy (revealing the ludicrous fear-mongering and exploitation of past Jewish suffering for political gain) that will take place in the 'periphery' (as a by-product of treating the Holocaust as a historical event rather than a religious event - as in how it is reacted to and observed, not the nature of the event).

I mean, even the fact that I am having to explain exactly what I mean is the point. We have to step on egg-shells around these subjects because they provoke intensely emotional reactions in people (Jewish and non-Jewish alike) - justifiably so. Ultimately, my ONLY concern is about the politicization of the Holocaust.

(I do keep bringing up Israel-Palestine though, but I think it's related. There is genuine antisemitism and then antisemitism that is propagated by Israeli foreign policy and Zionism.)

EDIT1:

Clarified my post a bit.

EDIT2:

The bank issues that Finkelstein wrote about were true but at the time it caused a hysteria within the Jewish community (mostly Zionists).

Several Zionist advocacy groups called him a Holocaust denier or revisionist/antisemitic/etc.

Now, Hilberg was getting calls from Elie Weisal to call off his endorsement of Norman's book. Hilberg is - like I said - the 'dean' of Holocaust studies. He's very well-respected in the Jewish community world-wide. He's also a conservative.

And yet, he supported Norman's book. He was even researching similar events when Norman's book came out.

So the point is how people treated Norman - a controversial scholar and critic of Israel. Calling someone a Holocaust denier who ISN'T a Holocaust denier is like accusing someone of rape or calling them a racist - when they are innocent of those allegations.

It's very hard to get rid of that mud because it's a big red light to people who do not want to put the time in to see if a person is innocent or not. It's character assassination.

And the REASON they attacked Norman was because of his politics concerning Israel.

EDIT3:

And all of this relates to that one little comment Guartz wrote. Although, I definitely am extracting too much from his statement. The point is how sensitive the issue is and BECAUSE of it's sensitivity it is ripe for those corrupt individuals who exploit it for purely ideological and political purposes - specifically in regards to Israel and Middle-Eastern geo-politics.

[Plow]

Have any of you guys actually been to the Holocaust Museum?


I don't think you can walk across that bridge over the shoes without it changing you as a person.

[Neosutra]

I know a guy that visited a Holocaust Museum recently.

[archibaldcrane]

I know a guy that visited a Holocaust Museum recently.

oh god, too soon, but I lol'ed...

[Dimmauk]

oh god, too soon, but I lol'ed...

Yeah I chuckled a little too.

[guartz]

I meant it as a joke, yet Elvis has a very good point none the less.

[thatwasnifty]

I hate the term 'Holocaust denier'. Same for the Armenian Genocide.

How the hell is it not denial? The historical record is clear on what happened to Jews and "other non-desirables" in Europe in the '30s and '40s. Every argument challenging it is factually incorrect and generally motivated by anti-Semitism. I'd suggest reading this as a brief guide about Holocaust denial:

Amazon.com: Why People Believe Weird Things: Pseudoscience, Superstition, and Other Confusions of Our Time: Michael Shermer, Stephen Jay Gould: Books