Obama: The United States is "one of the largest Muslim countries in the world"

[Plow]

A nazi who happens to be a good historian!? What.

lol

He doesn't say he's a good historian, he says he's useful to have around asking questions.

I don't need historians or dissenters or even proof to know that jews in politics milk the whole prosecution thing.

I actually liked what he said regarding devil's advocates. What did you find dumb about it?

"Devil's advocates are devils."

No, sorry, that's not how it works.

Or was it just a passing feeling you had because you were biased to begin with when you started watching?

Seeing how I don't know shit about him, or the person he was talking about, I think it would be kind of hard for me to be biased on the subject.

I assure you, I was watching from a completely objective viewpoint, and his portrayal of any kind of "devil's advocate" as a bad person was retarded.

[Elvis]

I think what Finkelstein meant by that was that the idea/question a devil's advocate usually proposes is controversial.

Was he trying to quote Mill? I don't think Mill put it that way...but I don't think he was even paraphrasing Mill.

But anyways, Finkelstein was trying to be witty. I don't think he meant it literally, but since the example he is using is Holocaust deniers, he was trying to spend his 'political capital' wisely.

After that lecture was done, the Yale school newspaper published 2 articles about Finkelstein and the content of his talk.

Folly and Fact at Yale

See if they accurately portray the entire talk.

EDIT1:

Here is a snippet from On Liberty (Chapter 2), with the pertinent part in bold:

It is not too much to require that what the wisest of mankind, those who are best entitled to trust their own judgment, find necessary to warrant their relying on it, should be submitted to by that miscellaneous collection of a few wise and many foolish individuals, called the public. The most intolerant of churches, the Roman Catholic Church, even at the canonization of a saint, admits, and listens patiently to, a "devil's advocate." The holiest of men, it appears, cannot be admitted to posthumous honors, until all that the devil could say against him is known and weighed. If even the Newtonian philosophy were not permitted to be questioned, mankind could not feel as complete assurance of its truth as they now do. The beliefs which we have most warrant for, have no safeguard to rest on, but a standing invitation to the whole world to prove them unfounded. If the challenge is not accepted, or is accepted and the attempt fails, we are far enough from certainty still; but we have done the best that the existing state of human reason admits of; we have neglected nothing that could give the truth a chance of reaching us: if the lists are kept open, we may hope that if there be a better truth, it will be found when the human mind is capable of receiving it; and in the meantime we may rely on having attained such approach to truth, as is possible in our own day. This is the amount of certainty attainable by a fallible being, and this the sole way of attaining it.

Of course the entire passage is important but I think after reading this part, Finkelstein's comments make a bit more sense.

The entire book online @here: http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/m/mill/john_stuart/m645o/

[Plow]

I just think it was a dumb interpretation, I understand his overall point, but he doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of "playing the devil's advocate." You can most definitely play devil's advocate without being a shitty person.


And, really, "he's not a Holocaust denier, but i don't like him and think he's a Nazi," is not exactly a glowing review, or some kind of step up, as far as I can tell lol.

[guartz]

You can most definitely play devil's advocate without being a shitty person.

This is why you disliked that quote? Because you thought he didn't know that?

Really now Plow.

[Plow]

Rather he was aware of the discernment or not isn't my point, I'm just saying he portrayed devil's advocates as bad guys that happen to be useful, when that's nowhere remotely near the case.

I guess I just think he should have been more specific in that he was discussing the role of "playing" devil's advocate, when it really seemed like he was talking about this one guy that he personally thinks is a bad dude, and implying that's what a devil's advocate is.

[guartz]

eh Plow, focus less on what the actual words were and focus more on why people say things they say. It will provide a more clear picture of their actual meaning.

[Plow]

I get what he's saying.

I'll use you specifically as an example, don't take this the wrong way or anything, although I don't think what I'm about to say could be perceived as insulting...


Let's pretend, for a moment, that we could actually establish anarchy as a "bad thing." I'm not saying it is, or anything, just look at it from that point of view.

Now, if we considered anarchy (as "a form of government," and yes I realize how silly that sounds at first glance) a bad thing, a lot of people would consider you a bad person.

However, it would be important to note that regardless of if it's a bad idea, you raise important questions and help to locate problems with government so that we can approach them.


Buuuut... you wouldn't *have* to be an anarchist to consider those points. If, as a government supporter (we'll call him Bill), Bill can look at things from an anarchist's perspective, and realize the same questions, it's every bit as useful if not more so. Bill doesn't need to be a bad dude (remember we're under the false pretense here that Anarchy is a bad thing) in order to see such problems, and doesn't need to go around telling people government is a terrible thing etc., in order to gain that point of view.


What I'm saying is simply that we can have devils advocates without having to have people that are assholes.

[guartz]

oh wow bad choice of a metaphor (simile?) but I get what you are saying. What you are saying is that this guy suggested that it takes a nazi to show a flaw in the holocaust history? If that's true, then yea, I agree with you Plow, that's pretty dumb. However, I don't remember catching him suggest that. It could be just how you interpreted it.

[Plow]

Yeah I realized how bad an example it was when I realized I had to clarify the falsity of every other sentence lol.

But yeah, that's how I took it.

I guess it's the way he combined the statement of "devil's advocates are devils" with saying "we need people like that" referring to someone he considers a Nazi. I think it's quite important to clarify that we don't "need" Nazis, just people willing to ask that kind of question.

[Cyn]

u guyz r smrt

Though to be honest: great read, all of my BG favorites posted.

And it's 10 pages of retarded people.