Inquiry: Just what the hell do GMs do?

[Jingseng]

This may be something for the premier sites to look into...

I had a pure case of mistake. You couldn't ask for a better set of facts.

All players were asked to set search comment. Player C asked me to set mine in party chat, and I responded that I did. I immediately asked player B to do so. Player B responded that he wanted Denali.

The run barely finishes (irrelevant, but had I not meikyo, we would have timed out). Askar Dirs drops.
I lot 520.
Player K lots 411.
Player H lots 351.
Player N requests people to act quickly.
1 minute warning.
Player B lots 707.
Player B obtains Askar Dirs.
Exit.

Player B claims a mistake in understanding, believing that all items were free lot. Objectively, this isn't possible on three grounds:

1. He understood the question asked before the run well enough to answer it.
2. Not everyone lotted on askar dirs as might be otherwise expected; moreover, everyone had set a search comment specifying one piece of gear (incidentally, the default rule - much like "your orb your drop")
3. The run was specifically set up by the leader (player N) so that ONLY player B could lot Denali.

Player B subsequently and voluntarily agrees to return the item via GM.

There is no contributory fault or mistake here (like a full inventory). There was clear communication. A clear error or wrong was committed and a voluntary (no threat, no duress) request to make amends. It's the purest case you can hope for of "Something wrong happened and we want to make it right."

You already know how this story ends - you knew when you read the title. The GM refused to act, on grounds that GM policy forbids them from interfering with any item that goes into treasure pool and may be freely lotted by the party.

I noted that this policy encourages and even endorses theft of items by players, causing grief-play which is in clear violation of PoL's foundational, guiding precept.

A repeat of policy.

I've requested a Senior GM, even though I know how that will probably turn out. I don't really care though; they take my money, and frankly, I feel entitled to make them work for it in this regard.

I did ask politely, just WHAT does a GM actually do? Because if "helping two players to right a clear wrong" is not in the scope of what GMs do, then what good are they?

"You are welcome to review the GM policy at PlayOnline.com > Rule & Policies > GM policy"

Gee, so answering questions also not within the ambit of GM powers? Everything is either:

1. We can't help you
2. We'll look into the matter
3. Go online
4. Please leave feedback

From that link:
Our Game Masters (GMs) are responsible for monitoring and regulating the in-game environment to provide a fair, safe and enjoyable game play experience for our customers. Game Masters play a major role in rescuing player characters that have become stuck, they take action against 3rd party tool users, and respond to user requests for issues such as lost items etc.

I've yet to actually see anything other than stuck players get actually handled.

So honestly, that begs the question: What the fuck do they do all day? Because that really was what my question to the GM: just what the hell do you do in the course of your day working as GM? Or as a senior GM? Notwithstanding whatever your pay as a GM might actually be, that's got to be the easiest job ever: cut and paste responses of inability to help. Honestly, you could design a bot to do that and not have to pay anyone.

So personally, I'd be interested in a real solid look (perhaps something PFA or Alla could do) into just what the hell GMs actually do, and do for this game. If they aren't here to help players, particularly to correct clear mistakes for which parties voluntarily ask GMs to correct, then what good are they, other than padding the monthly fee?

[Gryffes]

GM's are there to tell you they are investigating the matter, or are very sorry but cannot assist you with that matter.

[_chuchu]

GM's are there to tell you they are investigating the matter, or are very sorry but cannot assist you with that matter.

^ You also consented to that person being in party. I hope you go with a static instead in the future if this was a pickup group

[Yugl]

I think GMs can restore items, but they can't take items from one inventory and hand them to another players. I had a situation where someone's inventory was full and the GM told them they should have quartermastered the item if they wanted it so badly.

Edit: For stuff such as Nyzul and other party item drops, I've gotten into the habit of kicking people from PT when they can't lot the item anyways. For chips or gear, it's clear who is lotting, so just kick people that can't lot to begin with.

[Jingseng]

Re Consent: You consent to anyone in your static or LS for that matter. The point is simple, theft is endorsed by GMs. Either clear rules and promises we have set for ourselves are respected and enforced (particularly when voluntarily requested), or none of it matters.

Re Quartermaster: I saw a similar situation happen. The distinguish fact here is that there was no contributory fault by the players (arguably, you could say that someone should have checked their inventory first, or that failure of the player is a contributory factor). Here, someone who should not have lotted did.

It just strikes me that, for all their statement about fairness and enjoyment, they don't seem to be living up to that metric (except in that it is unfair and unenjoyable to be stuck under kazahm). If they aren't here for such a fundamental, brightline set of facts as I have stated above, then what good are they really? And why are we paying for the service of having them? (I for one would rather save even a fraction of a penny)

"What is a GM (Game Master) in Vana'Diel?"

"Vana'diel, the stage where FINAL FANTASY XI is set, is a virtual world created by Square Enix and the players together. Just like the real world, a wide variety of things can happenincluding problems players can't (or shouldn't have to) resolve through the game itself. This is where a special member of the Square Enix team comes in: the Game Master (GM). The GM's role is to facilitate players' enjoyment of the game."

Here is a problem between players that both players wish to resolve, but are not able to within the game itself. However, the GM duty, despite the official answer, appears to be just as we all have noted: To do jackshit.

[Deelo]

I'm glad its that way. Otherwise:

Player A hacks Player B

Player A dual-boxes player B

Player B (controlled by player A) would now like to volunteer his relic to Player A via GM.

...do you see where I'm going?

I'm sorry for your loss, just hope you dont get retards in your pt next time.

[Raen Ryong]

His argument was more that items which drop to a treasure pool and which both sides admit to having being distributed incorrectly being rectified, not the transfer of rare/ex items between characters.

That said, I agree. GMs do not have enough power... perhaps a good thing given how inconsistent they are.

[Wolfknight]

I'm glad its that way. Otherwise:

Player A hacks Player B

Player A dual-boxes player B

Player B (controlled by player A) would now like to volunteer his relic to Player A via GM.

...do you see where I'm going?

I'm sorry for your loss, just hope you dont get retards in your pt next time.

yes but that's different, this is mistake/misunderstanding of lotting that was recent, I don't see why if both ppl agree to it why they can't move a Recently obtained item, and give some cut off point[like a week, two days, or something].

[SubzeroDiabolos]

Odds of an helpfull GM are as bad as winning loto.

Scratch here vvvv

Spoiler: show

Better luck next time!

[Vodou]

Re Consent: You consent to anyone in your static or LS for that matter. The point is simple, theft is endorsed by GMs. Either clear rules and promises we have set for ourselves are respected and enforced (particularly when voluntarily requested), or none of it matters.

Re Quartermaster: I saw a similar situation happen. The distinguish fact here is that there was no contributory fault by the players (arguably, you could say that someone should have checked their inventory first, or that failure of the player is a contributory factor). Here, someone who should not have lotted did.

It just strikes me that, for all their statement about fairness and enjoyment, they don't seem to be living up to that metric (except in that it is unfair and unenjoyable to be stuck under kazahm). If they aren't here for such a fundamental, brightline set of facts as I have stated above, then what good are they really? And why are we paying for the service of having them? (I for one would rather save even a fraction of a penny)

"What is a GM (Game Master) in Vana'Diel?"

"Vana'diel, the stage where FINAL FANTASY XI is set, is a virtual world created by Square Enix and the players together. Just like the real world, a wide variety of things can happenincluding problems players can't (or shouldn't have to) resolve through the game itself. This is where a special member of the Square Enix team comes in: the Game Master (GM). The GM's role is to facilitate players' enjoyment of the game."

Here is a problem between players that both players wish to resolve, but are not able to within the game itself. However, the GM duty, despite the official answer, appears to be just as we all have noted: To do jackshit.

https://secure.playonline.com/ff11us/rule/policy.shtml

Here is what you can read next time rather than post a question for which the answer has already been stated.

Sadly, they treat us like adults and assume we can deal with the repercussions of making a mistake.

[Falisa]

This does sadden me and I definitely saw the difference in customer service when I worked on EQ2 as a GM. If a misloot happened in the game, the person who received the mislooted item needed to call a GM. We had all the tools to see that both of them were there for the kill of the monster and if the GM call is within a certain amount of time, we were happy to help with transferring a mislooted item.

I work directly with about 3-4 ex-FFXI GMs. Some of the things they say I found were good quotes. "You learn lots of ways to reword 'No' to players". On EQ2, the logs are free reign to any GM on the team, and you can look up whatever you want whenever you want. But on FFXI, they need to write up a case and explanation of why they need to look into the logs and what time they want the logs searched for, submit it to their lead and it has be approved. They then get the logs they requested sent back to them. You can imagine how frustrating it might be if they didnt get everything they needed from that, so I can see why they would rather just say no to everything. The GMs of FFXI arent here for customer support, they're more police than anything.

[Jingseng]

https://secure.playonline.com/ff11us/rule/policy.shtml

Here is what you can read next time rather than post a question for which the answer has already been stated.

Sadly, they treat us like adults and assume we can deal with the repercussions of making a mistake.

Perhaps you like the part in the OP where I cut and paste directly from their policy? Or in my second post where I cut and paste their definition of what a GM is and then question whether they meet their own standard?

I appreciate discussion and contribution, but please, read before you post. "TL;DR" is not an excuse.

As to the latter statement in your post, Ironically, I direct your attention to your own link, the relevant portion being in my second post. GM's are intended to affect the correction of mistakes that players are not and "(should not)" capable of correcting through their own efforts in game. Dealing with repercussions of a mistake falls squarely within that purpose.

[Jingseng]

I'm glad its that way. Otherwise:

Player A hacks Player B

Player A dual-boxes player B

Player B (controlled by player A) would now like to volunteer his relic to Player A via GM.

...do you see where I'm going?

I'm sorry for your loss, just hope you dont get retards in your pt next time.

It's a fair enough point, but I would raise a few points.

As some others noted, i'm talking primarily about "mistake" and "Accident" - I can't see how it would be even remotely possible to get someone else's relic by mistake, and then need to return it to them. This is primarily a matter of immediacy - drop occurs, mistake occurs, gm is called. Not a matter of freely transferring items which were never intended to be transferred in the first place (such as relic, AF, crafting+, etc.).

If this were so straightforward a scenario, the entire community is already doomed - too many players (and frankly, random people who don't even play) would simply hack accounts all day long and transfer gil and non r/e items.

That said, there are methods of determining when someone is dualboxing.

Lastly, there already exists a mechanism for "lost" items, where (as Yugl noted) items can be restored (in relevant but unstated part, to their rightful owners, who have been unfairly deprived of them by a third party). It's been speculated in the past that it is possible to abuse that system (and the rollback) for gain.

In the instance I've described, it's not possible. The same number of Askar Dirs on the server would remain - there would not be an extra one floating around. It is a transfer directly overseen and mediated by the GM, backed up by objective evidence in the chat logs and witnesses/strangers.

I will concede it's possible, to one degree or another, to fake such things IF you hack another account and control them both... but it's not impossible to design a fair system/conditions around that. It would also mean the top players whose profiles are visible on FFXIah should be getting hacked constantly and losing their non r/e items (of which, there are plenty that are highly expensive and sought after).

[Jingseng]

Sorry for triple post...

Falisa, thanks for the insight on how the GM system works. That does help actually, in that it can make it easier for players to know what information a GM needs, and how to frame it.

I would consider the GM police though, if they actually did police-like things. As it stands, it's not clear to me what things they do at all; about the only thing I can see, is that they are someone who players can rant to pointlessly. But if that were all, it'd be cheaper and more consistent for SE to simply write an AI script...

[Falisa]

Well they really do alot "policing" that you don't see everyday. They deal with the RMTs actually..when they ban them. They also deal with bad language and hacking players, any kind "community standers" is what the category is called for SOE atleast. I'm sure they don't deny taking action against accounts, but as for any game, we can't straight up tell you when you send in a GM call "ok thanks, they're totally getting banned!" But I can also see that being frustrating as well. o.x I had to look through logs to see if someone was hacking...and they cant.

[TheMysteriousX]

I've not heard of a case where GM's will transfer a rare/ex item from player to player, even if it is blatently obvious that someone has been scammed.

The way I understand it is, that had he player B have done it maliciously, then the most you could have hoped for was player B getting bant.

In the case of BCNM drops which aren't Ex, I have heard of the thie being forced to give back the stuff, but I've never heard of this being done on Ex items (it may not even be possible without the dev's intervening; as the salvage bans showed, there is a lot of hidden data stored with each item that might have to be altered).

As it was "accidental", and the party didn't want them punished, then the GM's hands were tied. It sucks, but I can see where the GM's/SE are coming from. If they sort out your mistake, then they have to sort out every mistake and "mistake" that comes their way.

[Arthars]

this is called ninja lotting

and in FFXI, as a role playing game, players can choose to play the role of a "ninja lotter"

yep sounds bullshit, but thats what i get from a GM long ago

just dont expect GM to resolve everything in the game, especially stuffs like this, ahich are in the grey area, and i dont think anyone can do anything to it.

At the same time, its not your fault as well, that such assholes exists

this happens VERY rarely, and you just unlucky to get ht.

just go with static next time :\

[Theraven]

There is a case of it being done with something r/e... every time this discussion comes up I remember someone posting here about one time someone mis-lotted an A.Body abjuration from Nidhogg and the GM moved it to the correct players inventory. The player who mis-lotted had to use that 1 item recovery ticket and the gm even did some sort of emote about it, like /em tosses the Aquarian Abjuration: Body into <t>'s pocket or something similar. The GM service is just very inconsistent and you could call 4 different GM's and get 4 different answers about the same question.

[Ghost_Wheel22]

I think that case got elevated to a SGM. But I find it strange how there a "GM Policy" section on POL that lists all sorts of clear black/white things but very little on where there might be just a hint of grey that would require a GM to actually fucking think nor the tools to help them mediate cases.

[TheMysteriousX]

An SGM or a JP LS speaking to a JP GM >_>

I don't doubt that they can do it, but whether they are allowed by policy/can be bothered to/can be persuaded to or not is another matter.

You could try calling another GM, and then asking to elevate the matter to an SGM, but in the time it'll take to get it resolved, you could have hit that floor again 4+ times.

There is also the magic 8 Ball theory of GM procedure.