Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[urat]

As a dancer, maximizing my tpm is my #1 job, thus I've worked on the equations to determine exact numbers of tpm, tp/swing, swing/minute, and etc.

Let me define my variables I use, I dunno the actual names you guys have for them, if you have names for them at all:

D: weapon delay, in weapon units

SD: Swing delay, in seconds

SM: swings/minute

TPS: Tp/swing

TPM: Tp/minute

H(b): Base Haste before armor

H(n): new haste after armor

TS: Tp store

First off, lets break down a couple myths, first off, myth #1, 2 handed weapons tp faster than 1 handed weapons. (base)

This is just silly, every single weapon in the game has close to the exact same base tp. the general range is 90~110, lower weapons being cheap easy to obtain items, and higher range being rare NM drops and HQs

Let's do some math:

D / 60 = SD , 60/SD = SM, SM x TPS = TPM(b)

Let's compare, azoth to hagun. According to common belief, people generally feel 2 handed weapons tp twice to three times as fast as one handed weapons. With no numebrs to back it up, I can't imagine why.

Azoth: D=210 TPS=5.7

60/(210/60)x5.7 = 97.7 TPM

Hagun: D=450 TPS=11.5

60/(450/60)x11.5 = 92 TPM

Whoa hold up, Basewise, azoth out tps a hagun, that can't be right... But it's true, every weapon in the game has 90~110 tpm, period.

Next up: Haste will increase TPM of a 2 handed weapon more than it increases the TPM of a one handed weapon, becuase the haste takes off more delay.

At first this seems correct, 1% haste wil ltkae off more SD of a 2 handed weapon then the SD of a one handed, but we also need to remember one handed weapons swing faster already. Here's the equation:

60/[(D/60)x(1-0.01xH(b))]xTPS

Hagun VS Azoth again.

I'll break down the equations for you this time since its getting a bit more indepth...

Lets use 5% haste

Azoth
60/[(210/60)x(1-0.05)]x5.7

60/(3.5x0.95)x5.7

60/3.325x5.7 = 102.9 TPM


Hagun
60/[(450/60)x(1-0.05)]x11.5

60/(7.5x0.95)x11.5

60/7.125x11.5=96.8 tpm

Now we simply remove the base TPMs to find out how much that 5% haste increased TPM:

Azoth: 102.9-97.7 = +5.2 TPM

Hagun: 96.8-92 = +4.8 TPM

Wow, looks like the azoth ended up getting more tpm from that haste, which makes sense since it had a slightly higher base TPM to start. Looks like haste doesn tincrease your tpm faster by delay, but by your base tpm.

Makes sense to me.

Finally, the big one, haste vs tp store.

Many sams argue with me that tp store is more important than haste. When I ask why they just dogmaticly state that it just is. I can mathimaticly prove that haste far outwieghs tp store and they still refuse to face it.

Now for sams themselves it generaly doesnt matter anyways becuase most of their tp store gear has far more haste than any piece of armor could have, their is no body piece with +12% haste.

But this isnt just about sams, what about the other 10 odd DD jobs that dont have access to all that tp store gear? Well here's my general rule fore haste vs tp store

When total haste < 15%, 1 tp store > 1% haste

When haste > 15%, then 1% haste > tp store, dramaticly after 20%

After 30%, 1% haste > 2 tp store, 40% 1>3, and etc.

In other words, shit is situational, if your soloing, tp wise tp store is actually kinda better than haste, but only by about .1 tpm, and even then haste helps with utsu so its a moot point.

To calculate the tp boost of a piece of gear, here's your equation

(TS1 = initial store tp, TS2 = after store tp, H1 = haste before, H2 = haste after)

It's a doozy

60/[(D/60)x(1-0.01xH1)]x(TS1xTPS) - 60/[(D/60)x(1-0.01xH2)]x(TS2xTPS)

Whoa I know

Now for the broken down equation.

[360/Dx(H1+1)](TPSxTS1)-[360/Dx(H2+1)](TPSxTS2)

Comments? I'll post my charts and etc to show tps vs haste all the way to 80 in a bit.

[Starr]

As with many of your posts; wat?

[urat]

Just posting a formula to simplify a comparison between gear when your trying to maximize TP gain.

For example, When does dusk feet surpass cobra feet? According to formula, after 10% haste.

[Thorny]

Just posting a formula to simplify a comparison between gear when your trying to maximize TP gain.

For example, When does dusk feet surpass cobra feet? According to formula, after 10% haste.

according to me it's 0% haste because dusk get you additional damage too.. barring a 4-7hit build on a 2handed DD, haste pieces will always win out over stp ones

[Klain]

You're still posting?

[Shuemue]

DNC can equip Hagun now?

[urat]

according to me it's 0% haste because dusk get you additional damage too.. barring a 4-7hit build on a 2handed DD, haste pieces will always win out over stp ones

You forgot that cobra's has acc on it, which puts its lead over dusk by a hair.

But otherwise you are correct, dusk wins otherwise.

[Hiryo]

I kinda scrolled through but "Hagun vs Azoth" caught my eye o.O

[pchan]

But this isnt just about sams, what about the other 10 odd DD jobs that dont have access to all that tp store gear? Well here's my general rule fore haste vs tp store

When total haste < 15%, 1 tp store > 1% haste

When haste > 15%, then 1% haste > tp store, dramaticly after 20%

After 30%, 1% haste > 2 tp store, 40% 1>3, and etc.

In other words, shit is situational, if your soloing, tp wise tp store is actually kinda better than haste, but only by about .1 tpm, and even then haste helps with utsu so its a moot point.

+0.1 "tpm" only increases weapon skill frequency and not melee damage, which haste does as well as ws fequency. So any day 1% haste will beat 1 stp for low delay weapons like daggers.

[Weeks]

Not much for abstract thinking, are we? He even specified that the Hagun vs. Azoth thing was because of the notion that's been thrown around here lately that 2H weapons inherently TP faster, when in fact it's the opposite, and at the extreme ends of the spectrum even /SAM Store TP trait doesn't quite make up the ground.

On that note, 150 Delay daggers actually have 112.5 TP/minute.

[Thorny]

You forgot that cobra's has acc on it, which puts its lead over dusk by a hair.

But otherwise you are correct, dusk wins otherwise.

man, i wish you would post in advanced again so i can say the things i want to say

Since you aren't, Dusk Ledelsens beat cobra in all situations where the person in question is geared worth a shit. Store TP has constant returns(inb4 failure and the constant vs decreasing argument), Haste has increasing returns. You can't just look at that one piece, you need to look at all pieces relevant to decide.

[urat]

man, i wish you would post in advanced again so i can say the things i want to say

Since you aren't, Dusk Ledelsens beat cobra in all situations where the person in question is geared worth a shit. Store TP has constant returns(inb4 failure and the constant vs decreasing argument), Haste has increasing returns. You can't just look at that one piece, you need to look at all pieces relevant to decide.

You're absolutely correct sir.

Without the acc on the cobras both dusk and cobras start out at exactly same tp+, but add 1 haste and dusk immediately passes it.

The 2 acc on the cobras gives it a slight edge over initially, but after 10% in other haste (I think it's 10%, thats just an estimated guess I can calculate how much, might be 7~9%) the dusk then overtakes and passes the cobras.

By 60% haset Dusk has a 10x lead on cobras, so yes you are correct, it depends on the situation, dusk 95% of the time is better than cobras unless you have low acc and no other haste in gear.

[Spider-Dan]

according to me it's 0% haste because dusk get you additional damage too..

You are presuming that DPS is the goal. The OP specifically stated that he was comparing TP/s, which (for a job like DNC) does not necessarily correlate to a desire to increase damage output.

[Shinryuu]

CORRECT WAY OF STORE TP VS. HASTE

Haste returns:

(Return of new haste-Return of old haste)/Return of old haste, where their returns are just 1/(1-haste)

E.g. going from 50% to 75% is going from 200% to 400%, or a 100% increase.

Store TP gains:

Percentual increase of average attack rounds to 100 TP, multiplied by WS/TP ratio.

E.g. going from 5 to 4 attack rounds is a 25% decrease, and if your WS account for 60% of your total damage, it's 15% more damage dealt.

Done.

[Valyana]

Store TP gains:

Percentual increase of average attack rounds to 100 TP, multiplied by WS/TP ratio.

For most melee, yes. But DNC (and /DNC) can make use of Store TP other than in terms of hits to 100TP. Really the OP should have been titled (Just for DNC).

[noodles355]

Gonna sound like a noob now (What is TPM?) but what's the point of this? Who specifically uses STP gear unless it means less attack rounds to 100%TP except DNC?

What's the point of comparing 1STP vs 1%Haste?

Your post title says "not just for sams", but it should say "for dnc" because any other job that actually use STP to increase their damage don't care about 1STP vs 1%Haste. They care about X% Haste vs 1 Less round to 100% TP.

[Thorny]

You are presuming that DPS is the goal. The OP specifically stated that he was comparing TP/s, which (for a job like DNC) does not necessarily correlate to a desire to increase damage output.

you must be new here, urat is the OP

Additionally, there are next to no situations where gaining tp faster(that minimally) would be worth giving up the damage dealt. If you're going to start lecturing about mob tp, then you've already lost as DNC is pretty worthless on any mob you're concerned about giving tp too.

[urat]

Your all getting my point around backwards.

I'm stating tp store is > haste.

There are a large number of sams that all argue that getting their "6 hit setup" is more important, even when I show them that some of their store tp gear is actually second best under certain situations.

At first a piece of gear with like 7-8 store tp is far better than a couple % in haste, but they don't understand that if you have march and haste, suddenly that little bit of haste in gear far surpasses the tp store.

They seem to believe store tp for 6 hit set up is better than haste even if they are at 70% haste already.

They dont understand that at higher levels of haste, you can pull off a 7~8 hit set up but hit the mob those 8 times in the time it took you to hit 6 times, thus adding another 2 hits and increasing your damage while mainting the same TPM.

For example, to have a 6 hit setup one needs 18 tp store in gear at least, for a total of 38 tp store combined with lv 75 samuria trait, giving them 17% tp / swing.

With a delay of 7.5 seconds that means it takes you 45 seconds to reach 100 tp.

Thus, without that 18 store tp gear, you would be at 13.8 (1.2x11.5) tp/swing, so you'd need to swing not 6, but 7.2 times in 45 seconds to maintin the same tpm of a 6 hit set up

45/7.2 = need a 6.25 delay on your weapon, oposed to haguns base delay of 7.5

To reach that, you would need 17% haste to maintain the same tpm as a 6 hit set up. BUT you will get in an extra 1.2 hits per round of WSes, thus increasing your melee DoT by 17%!

So if you have a red mage hasting you, 2% is all you need to reach the same tpm as an unhasted sam with a 6 hit set up.

[Raen Ryong]

What are you giving up for 6hit on SAM? Even assuming no Usukane feet, you're giving up hands only typically (Rajas + Brutal + Hachiman Kote).

Let's say you're giving up Dusk Gloves +1 and ignoring attack or anything, comparing Store TP vs Haste.

This Store TP drops you from 7hit to 6hit, or reduces swings between WS from 6 to 5.

1/6 = 16.7% reduction in swings needed for weaponskill, or 16.7% more weaponskills.

At what point does 4 haste produce 16.7% weaponskill frequency?

4 / (100 - x) = 0.167.

4 = 0.167(100 - x)
4 = 16.7 - 0.167x
0.167x = 12.7
x = 76.0% haste.

Therefore 72=>76% haste matches that frequency. SAM cannot reach this value of Haste!

This is also with Dusk Gloves +1 remember, if you make that figure 3 / (100 - x), you'll find that x = 82.0% which is not physically possible to attain.

[Spider-Dan]

you must be new here, urat is the OP

First sentence of OP:

As a dancer, maximizing my tpm is my #1 job, thus I've worked on the equations to determine exact numbers of tpm, tp/swing, swing/minute, and etc.

So.... yeah.

Additionally, there are next to no situations where gaining tp faster(that minimally) would be worth giving up the damage dealt.

That's a different argument.

If you want to argue that DNC should prioritize minimal increase to damage dealt over minimal increase to TP gained, be my guest.