Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[Cream Soda]

i always force mnks to /war in my parties ._.;

Move to fairy and be my gay lover?

[Greatguardian]

Move to fairy and be my gay lover?

^ This.

I don't get to /WAR outside of ls parties, assuming I'm even on MNK instead of COR. 90% of the time I don't have a DD competent enough to bounce hate with in pickups, so I get floored with TP moves if I don't have Utsu for them.

[Malacite]

MNK/WAR is such a beast in merits it's not funny but most people are either chicken shit or end up in a crappy party which results in you just getting killed :/

[FailureMidgard]

For the people that were interested in the parse results:

http://www.risen-guild.com/avelle/ff...009--2346.html

I was SAM/WAR.
Avelle was DRG/SAM. (And Cerulean -should- be counted in his damage)
Terraxia was RNG/SAM.

And, my opinions, in general:

Terraxia definitely did better than I expected, or than any /ra ranger I've ever seen.
I'm not trying to brag here, but there's no way a ranger can compete with the benefit melee gets via marches and haste. Rangers still have their benefits, and are way better on multiple endgame fights, obviously.
Also, I still feel that this setup a situation as favorable to the ranger as possible (except maybe the 4th bard song didn't benefit him too much). My WS average with Polearm is barely higher than my GK average is on Mamool due to the 1, 2, 3, and 4 hit WSes that occur when a mob dies. Even when I would WS at ~20%, it would only land 4 hits usually. The 5th hit + DA potential was wasted many times. And of course, the 1/2/3 hit I'm talking about is when the mob took a huge hit right as I hit my WS macro, and my WS went off at ~10%. I also got tickled roughly ~3 times as much as Terraxia did, and I don't think he ever lost more than 30/35 TP. I pretty regularly took 60/80 tickles. And ya, I think the gap would have been larger on non-flying mobs...

Anyway, props to Terraxia on the parse, but marches are still insanely powerful, and I stand by my original statement that only a KC ranger can beat out a SAM that knows what he's doing.
Ranger has it's place, nobody would ever deny a ranger on DI, Odin, etc. But in merits (and IMO on Einherjar waves, Dynamis, Limbus, etc) , sam/war and war/sam are king.

Finally, as for SAM roll:
I was 65% WS dmg, 38.6% of total damage = 25.1% of the total damage was my WS.
RNG was 59.5% WS dmg, 28.9% of total damage = 17.2% of total damage was RNG WS.
IF you are going to Snake Eye a SAM roll, then those final percentages are what you should base it on as to "who it's best to Snake Eye for". If 2 rangers benefit, that's obviously better than if 1 sam benefits. But in most situations (with a GK SAM in the party), you're probably going to have the sam benefit from 7>8, maybe 1 person benefit 10>11, and 1 person need a 5, and not care past that. If the parse looks anything like ours, 7>8 is a better call than 10>11, though sitting on Snake Eye and not using it is worse. That being said, I'm 100% fine with never Snake Eyeing a SAM roll. But I still see CORs do it. And I still maintain that SAM roll shouldn't be used with a Pole Sam. The fact it only benefits us 40% of the time makes it pretty meh.

Sorry for the long winded analysis, some parts of it are obviously skewed by my experience and how I am seeing things, but I think it's all accurate, for the most part.

[Greatguardian]

Oh god, not this again. Please, just let this thread die.

After reading all this godawful arguing back and forth, here's what, in my opinion, it comes down to: Unilaterally catering rolls to 1 person in a party at the behest of the other 2 DDs is stupid, no matter how much of a Badass Motherfucker that 1 person is.

Example:
Prelude was never changed to be Single-Target, and remains AoE. RNG was never nerfed, and remains the biggest BAMF on the planet. Should BRDs be singing Minuet/Prelude in a party of PLMSAM, KCRNG, BBMNK, BRD, BRD, RDM? No. Why? Because, as a COR (or Brd in this case, whatever), I don't give a shit how much better your pew pews are over the other guys pew pews, buffs that benefit the entire party will ultimately win out.

Ultimately, if the party is able to all benefit from an 8+ SAM roll (as is the case with an all 2-hander pt /SAM), then sure, why the fuck not? I know well enough not to be wasting Snake Eye on SAM roll unless it's breaking a hit barrier. The problem is knowing where those hit barriers are per player. For instance, I know a WAR who religiously subs NIN in merits for whatever reason. He may need an 11 to reach a 5-hit because he's lacking 15STP from his sub. Other players see a COR using SAM roll and decide to stop using STP gear and switch to Haste gear (SAMs switching to Dusk over hachi hands). Some players are just fucking retarded and don't have a 6-hit to begin with. Taking the time out to lecture your party and check everyone's x-hit build beforehand is just a waste.

Can't we all just stick to Chaos roll and get along?

[FailureMidgard]

Oh god, not this again. Please, just let this thread die.

After reading all this godawful arguing back and forth, here's what, in my opinion, it comes down to: Unilaterally catering rolls to 1 person in a party at the behest of the other 2 DDs is stupid, no matter how much of a Badass Motherfucker that 1 person is.

Example:
Prelude was never changed to be Single-Target, and remains AoE. RNG was never nerfed, and remains the biggest BAMF on the planet. Should BRDs be singing Minuet/Prelude in a party of PLMSAM, KCRNG, BBMNK, BRD, BRD, RDM? No. Why? Because, as a COR (or Brd in this case, whatever), I don't give a shit how much better your pew pews are over the other guys pew pews, buffs that benefit the entire party will ultimately win out.

Ultimately, if the party is able to all benefit from an 8+ SAM roll (as is the case with an all 2-hander pt /SAM), then sure, why the fuck not? I know well enough not to be wasting Snake Eye on SAM roll unless it's breaking a hit barrier. The problem is knowing where those hit barriers are per player. For instance, I know a WAR who religiously subs NIN in merits for whatever reason. He may need an 11 to reach a 5-hit because he's lacking 15STP from his sub. Other players see a COR using SAM roll and decide to stop using STP gear and switch to Haste gear (SAMs switching to Dusk over hachi hands). Some players are just fucking retarded and don't have a 6-hit to begin with. Taking the time out to lecture your party and check everyone's x-hit build beforehand is just a waste.

Can't we all just stick to Chaos roll and get along?

I posted because people earlier expressed interest in the result. You are free to -not- click on this thread.

As for the rest of your idiocy, do you realize a Chaos roll doesn't really benefit a GK sam much at all? What's hypocrisy?

Can't we all just stick to Fighter's roll and get along?

[Shinryuu]

Oh man yesterday I merited and we got march x2 fighter's chaos w/ me on WAR and a DRK friend and I whipped out hasso and the Fort axe and it was so sexy

[Greatguardian]

Oh I most definitely realized the uselessness of Chaos on SAM. That was sorta the point of me mentioning it.

Shin I <3 you.

[Kimkytaru]

I posted because people earlier expressed interest in the result. You are free to -not- click on this thread.

As for the rest of your idiocy, do you realize a Chaos roll doesn't really benefit a GK sam much at all? What's hypocrisy?

Can't we all just stick to Fighter's roll and get along?

I'm sorry to play devil advocate here but why go sam/war if chaos roll does only small things to your dmg. You'll then only get a boost for Double atk +5% but then it's a fact that 5% haste if far better than that. So I'm a bit confused, well actually a lot confused. Even Rng with the acc + would be better than /war if I understand good how stuff works in FF11.

[Plow]

The job trait is 10% double attack.

[Greatguardian]

If a SAM is using a GKT, they're subbing WAR for 10% DA which procs on WS. Since GKT WS are 1-hit, a DA nearly doubles the damage done. Obvious DOT benefits here as well. If a SAM is using a PLM, they're getting Berserk, which is a huge boost to Penta Thrust damage, as well as DoT.

[Shinryuu]

GKT SAM should sub DRG.

Prove me wrong.

[Spider-Dan]

If a SAM is using a GKT, they're subbing WAR for 10% DA which procs on WS. Since GKT WS are 1-hit, a DA nearly doubles the damage done.

...because fTP doesn't really make a big difference on GKT WS?

Anyway, as for the parse, Failure did a good job and his SAM pretty much crushed my RNG. In all fairness, there were quite a few times I wound up with 1-2 Marches (because stuff is running around and avoiding every March means I have to pull the mob far away from DD on every WS), and at the start of the parse I was getting Prelude+Min2 from the March BRD. Because I was eating straight RATK food (blackened frog), this meant that there was a significant number of times that I missed shots/WS because I was relying on Prelude for accuracy. But that one's on me; I should have been eating pot-au-feu and asking for min2+etude from the start, as I did about halfway through the parse. I certainly don't think I would have won, but I might have beaten DRG.

In any case, I don't think it's possible to squeeze more than a few % more out of /ra RNG sans relic, so I am glad I got a better idea of what /ra RNG can really do.

[seiji]

GKT SAM should sub DRG.

Prove me wrong.

and spam namas!!!

else soboro /rng sidewinder? (on colibris, dont know dont merit a lot)

[Shinryuu]

A /ra RNG/SAM can get TP in 22 seconds I think, I did the math for Thorny once.

Soboro /RNG is stupid.

[Fridell]

Would be fun to see the gear of those 3 people also, for the hell of it.

[Tsuko_Asura]

If a SAM is using a GKT, they're subbing WAR for 10% DA which procs on WS. Since GKT WS are 1-hit, a DA nearly doubles the damage done. Obvious DOT benefits here as well. If a SAM is using a PLM, they're getting Berserk, which is a huge boost to Penta Thrust damage, as well as DoT.

You do realize that a DA proc on any weapon skill is the equivalent of an extra swing of your weapon, yes? The WSC and fTP from the initial hit of a 'Gekko are nowhere to be found on an additional swing. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that, in the case of a WS like Drakesbane or Raging Rush, a DA proc also can't crit. like its predecessors.

[Malacite]

You do realize that a DA proc on any weapon skill is the equivalent of an extra swing of your weapon, yes? The WSC and fTP from the initial hit of a 'Gekko are nowhere to be found on an additional swing. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly certain that, in the case of a WS like Drakesbane or Raging Rush, a DA proc also can't crit. like its predecessors.

This is the first I've heard of this.


And yea DRG sub can be epic, if you have the haste gear to go along with the earring. In fact it's the only way SAM can hit the haste cap on gear.

[Spider-Dan]

IIRC, fTP does not apply to additional swings but WSC does.

Would be fun to see the gear of those 3 people also, for the hell of it.

WS:
http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/rngstr.jpg

TP:
Osode -> Snap+5/RATK+10 Mirke
Wyvern Helm -> Zha'Go's Barbut
Seiryu's Kote -> Crimson Finger Gauntlets
Light Gorget -> Qiqirn Collar

max marksmanship/crit/rapid shot/snapshot merits, 4/5 STR merits

[Tsuko_Asura]

I would have expected you to be using Obow, to be honest.