Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[Neosutra]

Show me how you get 423 accuracy. I know it's hard to admit to those that paid millions for cuchulain and ancient torques, but pizza is more attack more strength and more accuracy than typcial meat + epeen accuracy gear.

Im not sure which mobs you calculated 423 for, as you dont need that much for the mage mobs there and puks, and certainly need more for NIN/THF/Wyvern.

Pizza is great, but its limiting factor is that with a solid gear acc build, you can eat meat for a slightly less hit rate than pizza, and slightly more attack (which at first glance doesnt seem like a good tradeoff). Where meat shines is ability to swap out those acc spots (culc/AT/acc earring/rings) for more attack based alternatives on mobs that have lower evasion (puks/mage mobs, etc), netting you a similar hit rate to sushi/pizza alternatives, at a much better DoT overall.

As for the similarity:

Pizza+1 nets you ~ 35 acc and 55 attack.

Lets assume you use Faith for neck, Foragers for back, rajas/str ring, ethereal/brutal earrings, full usu obviously, and hades+1, with black tathum.

That gives you (@299 skill with full merits) 200+(.9*99) = 289 acc + dex(63 base *.5 = 31.5) + gear (full usu = 42.5 acc, .9*7 = 6.3 from faith, 9 from hades+1, 4 from tathum, 2.5 from rings if using rajas+str >.>, all totals 63.8 acc from gear)

= 289 + 31.5+ 63.8 = 384.3 acc.

With an added ~35 acc from pizza. = 419 acc.


With 15 attack from back, 5 attack from rings slots, 5 attack from earring, 7 attack from faith = 32 attack total from spots you could have used acc.

With an added 55 from pizza.

= 55+ 32 = 87 attack from swapping the back/neck/earrings/rings for attack/str counterparts and eating pizza.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With one 3 acc earring, 2 7acc rings(12 more acc than rajas/str ring), culcs (7 more than foragers), and AT(3.7 more acc than faith), you get 25.7 more acc than your attack build, before any food, at the loss of 32 attack.

384.3+25.7 = 410acc., 9 under your acc rate with pizza, with the ability to swap in foragers/rajas/faith/att earring for when focus is up and when fighting the mage mamools, puks, and lower evasive mobs.

As for you and str rings: For the more evasive mobs, even with focus you wont cap out, and should be using acc rings/AT/Cucls. Not to mention that with your choice of pizza over meat, your max attack (even with attack gear and str rings) is lower than a mnk that chose to eat meat and swap into his attack build when needed.

Either way: No you shouldnt be using str rings.

[FailureMidgard]

How about you prove that you do more than that ;p. You're just the same idiot as Neosutra, you troll and troll, but when asked to backup your claim, noone in the house.

Wait a second, I need to prove 2 DD can get 25% before Brainjack force starts?
Or I need to prove it's possible without your loveable monk?

There's roughly 2.5-3minutes between brainjacks, and you spend generally 1-1.5minutes of that charmed. I think charms average probably about 65-70 seconds, and we -always- beat the brainjack, so there's no way we're going the full duration. 1.5minutes is a guess, but it's pretty damned accurate (and I base it around my 2.5min meditate also, which sometimes isn't even back up after uncharm @ 50 if I used it right after uncharm after 75).

Also, I don't need to prove shit to you. I don't give 2 shits what you incorrectly think about things. I don't have fraps, I'm not gonna go get fraps. I used it once, and it lowered my FPS a noticeable amount. If you'd like to transfer to midgard, I'd be glad to merit with you and parse against you, however. If you missed it in the other thread - I did back up exactly what I said was going to happen in a parse.

[pchan]

Pizza+1 nets you ~ 35 acc and 55 attack.

Lets assume you use Faith for neck, Foragers for back, rajas/str ring, ethereal/brutal earrings, full usu obviously, and hades+1, with black tathum.

That gives you (@299 skill with full merits) 200+(.9*99) = 289 acc + dex(63 base *.5 = 31.5) + gear (full usu = 42.5 acc, .9*7 = 6.3 from faith, 9 from hades+1, 4 from tathum, 2.5 from rings if using rajas+str >.>, all totals 63.8 acc from gear)

= 289 + 31.5+ 63.8 = 384.3 acc.

With an added ~35 acc from pizza. = 419 acc.

for me, 68 dex which gives me 422 accuracy with pizza+1 and this gear :

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z.../pizza-str.jpg

422 accuracy, 113 STR ( exactly the cap on some MMJ) 460 attack

Cap on : everything, bare NINJA (91%, 86,5%, 82% for the respective levels) and lurkers, but I'll come to those later , focus is your friend.

With one 3 acc earring, 2 7acc rings(12 more acc than rajas/str ring), culcs (7 more than foragers), and AT(3.7 more acc than faith), you get 25.7 more acc than your attack build, before any food, at the loss of 32 attack.

this setups gives 90 dex so 414 accuracy, 78+32 str and 373+82 (coeurl sub+1) = 455 attack

cap on : same except the rare lvl 83 Mimer (83.5%)


Now what to do with this wondeful ability "focus" ? Keep foc focus (+30) acc.

On ninja Infiltrator : focus up but keep str rings/back/earring etc so :

pizza : pizza+1 cap at 400 base acc so it will give +44 even though your base is 411, so 455 accuracy, 113 STR, 460 attack
highest level infiltrator require 448 accuracy to cap, all good with str ring again !

meat : 444 acuracy and you need to keep +acc gear on unless you brd uses madrigals on those too. (95%, 95% and 93%) your have therefore still 78+32=110 STR and 455 attack, so STILL less accuracy/STR/attack than pizza.


Lurkers : the brd needs to madrigal, pizza or not, arguably double madrigals (30 acc for 1 only). The lurkers require 478, 487 and 496 (gl with those) to cap, both madrigal add 45 acc which put you at :

pizza : equip 2 NQ snipers is place of raja+str rings, this puts you at : 496 accuracy, 455 attack, 103 STR.
meat : still equip max acc gear obviously, this puts you this time at 474 accuracy, 455 att and 110 str.

pizza is more accuracy, attack, though less str.

Conclusion : pizza is more att/str/accuracy than the best (and expesnive) accuracy gear with coeurl subs+1. In case someone mentions hedgehog pie, those would give crap attack with double march. The only food that could be better (didn't do the math) would be rabbit pie (pricy and low duration) and red curry (cor and minuet needed though...).

Note : cerberus mantle+1, augmented earring with attack5 str2, augmented neck with att 7 str 3 stp2 could possibly be added to the pizza setup for an even larger difference.

Also, I don't need to prove shit to you. I don't give 2 shits what you incorrectly think about things. I don't have fraps, I'm not gonna go get fraps. I used it once, and it lowered my FPS a noticeable amount. If you'd like to transfer to midgard, I'd be glad to merit with you and parse against you, however. If you missed it in the other thread - I did back up exactly what I said was going to happen in a parse.

You need not fraps to post the parse of a boss and the column "damage per minute". It's easy, look :

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z...n/parse-BR.jpg

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z.../parse-BR2.jpg

mnk/nin,sam/nin,brd,rdm,whm,thf

[FailureMidgard]

1. I use a different parser that doesn't have that.
2. Maybe 4k/min isn't such an unimpressive average if you're counting charmed time in that, which it looks like that may be doing? I'm still 100% sure I do that, but your claim earlier of 4k/min, that I then refuted with how the timetable works, makes 4k/min insanely slow.
3. Sam/nin, wtf?
4. Do you have Dia3? Did you or the bard 2hr at all? Did you icarus wing? I find it hard to believe you have a 2000 dpm difference between first and last minute, unless you had something going on to burn from 20>0.

[Neosutra]

The main 2 points were that you need those extra acc pieces regardless, to hit the cap on even your normal mobs (by your math), and even with focus you need them to cap out on thf and higher. So a person should still have those "overated acc items".

As for my arguement for red curry over the pizza set, the basis was to have less crossover and lost attack on the lower evasive mobs, while still getting very close to pizza on the high evasion mobs.

And to be honest, if you are getting that high on acc, you can probably swap back to destroyers.

[Uzor]

1. I use a different parser that doesn't have that.
2. Maybe 4k/min isn't such an unimpressive average if you're counting charmed time in that, which it looks like that may be doing? I'm still 100% sure I do that, but your claim earlier of 4k/min, that I then refuted with how the timetable works, makes 4k/min insanely slow.
3. Sam/nin, wtf?
4. Do you have Dia3? Did you or the bard 2hr at all? Did you icarus wing? I find it hard to believe you have a 2000 dpm difference between first and last minute, unless you had something going on to burn from 20>0.

I want to stay out of this argument, but as Pchan's gone to bed I'll answer these questions.

3. I keep telling them that SAM/WAR is better, but the SAM mostly insists on going /NIN for survivability unless I force him I think I've managed to convince him now though.

4. I don't watch closely which spells the RDM cast, and we use different RDM's each time. For that specific parse which was the run before last SS run if I remember right, I'm not sure tbh. I don't think he have it merited. As for 2-hours, no one has 2-hours for SS boss. We use them on ramparts on the previous floor.

[FailureMidgard]

I want to stay out of this argument, but as Pchan's gone to bed I'll answer these questions.

3. I keep telling them that SAM/WAR is better, but the SAM mostly insists on going /NIN for survivability unless I force him I think I've managed to convince him now though.

4. I don't watch closely which spells the RDM cast, and we use different RDM's each time. For that specific parse which was the run before last SS run if I remember right, I'm not sure tbh. I don't think he have it merited. As for 2-hours, no one has 2-hours for SS boss. We use them on ramparts on the previous floor.

I don't think /nin is even more survivability, esp on chariots that just wipe shadows 2 seconds after you put them up. People have debated /sam vs /nin for wars in merit camps...well, if there's even a debate there, there shouldn't be a debate vs a chariot.

My only point on the buff/debuffs, is that stuff changes things. And I dunno what he did on that parse there, but I'm not sure I'd buy randomness as a 2k difference in DPM. Spies or other drinks, daedalus wing, etc all explain it pretty easily though.

In any case, I still see no need to try to prove myself to pchan, of all people.

[mdkuser]

But for damage which is better? sam/war fullign seigan or sam/nin full timing hasso? 10 acc 10% haste 10 str vs 10% DA and zerk. A sam war tanking a boss has to full time seigan.

Above parse was Zhayolm boss not silversea. Its a lv 82 colibri with 50k HP. The parse was also done with SV marches for the first 6:30 of the fight.

[pchan]

1. I use a different parser that doesn't have that.
2. Maybe 4k/min isn't such an unimpressive average if you're counting charmed time in that, which it looks like that may be doing? I'm still 100% sure I do that, but your claim earlier of 4k/min, that I then refuted with how the timetable works, makes 4k/min insanely slow.

Your refutate the 4k/min by doing maths on the silver sea boss where you can obviously NOT check your accuracte your dpm. Post a ZR boss ... We all know silver sea as shit def.

3. Sam/nin, wtf?

The question is not about sam/nin it's about your sam/war which you claimed would blow any monk damage wise. Prove it. And like I said /WAR doesn't magically boost your damage by 50%.

4. Do you have Dia3? Did you or the bard 2hr at all? Did you icarus wing? I find it hard to believe you have a 2000 dpm difference between first and last minute, unless you had something going on to burn from 20>0.

Idk what's strange, when you start the debuffs are not up yet. And the last minute is hundredfisted IIRC so very little impact with double march.

In any case, I still see no need to try to prove myself to pchan, of all people.

That's what I guessed.

[pchan]

The main 2 points were that you need those extra acc pieces regardless, to hit the cap on even your normal mobs (by your math), and even with focus you need them to cap out on thf and higher. So a person should still have those "overated acc items".

Nope, I explicitely stated that I only use 2 NQ acc rings/ear and cap on lurkers (with 1 madrigal) and no cuchu A torque etc. The only benefit would be *if* the brd doesn't want to madrigal.

[Aragon of Odin]

Saying a Salvage Boss is a Colibri with 50K HP is the dumbest thing ever, it's not even close. Why War/Sam and Sam/War are so strong in merit parties is because they really don't need to focus on survivability much at all. You engage a mob you know it's going to die within 30~ seconds, and then it's basically hate reset as you move to the next mob.

In a good merit party you have the ability to ride Hasso near full time provided you have near equally geared melee with you, you don't have to worry about AoE's, and you can rely on the fact hate will be bounced between 2-3 others as well, knowing that when hates not on you, you won't be taking damage of any sort.

When something like a Salvage Boss is living longer then your merit mob of 30 seconds it takes away your ability to ride Hasso, on top of even when hates not on you you are still taking damage, which makes you tend to go into a more defensive mode compared to a melee mode.

In a merit party you could use T/E to anticipate a TP move while using Hasso knowing the mob won't really get more chances to harm you, where as in Salvage you'd be forced to gimp your damage by switching to Seigan knowing the mob is going to live long enough to have many more chances to kill you.

They are nowhere near the same situation. From my experience in merit parties with Mnk is they don't stand a chance. It's different with Salvage Bosses because they have different
defensive abilities which still allow them to focus on offense at the same time, where as something like War has to make huge sacrifices to focus on defensive capabilities.

[Aevis]

Just no. For some reason I see everywhere that if you don't have full usukane 2004 gear is better which is silly. Haste cap is on thing, but you can't get the haste cap with usukane sune-ate and without full set, so what you claim basically, is getting back to .. fuma ? Losing 7 accuracy 7 attack 7 store tp ? Not using usukane body which gives you 6 store tp 8 str 16 accuracy .. come on. Usukane head is better than turban if you eat meat. Usukane legs are the best piece for asuranfists. A 4/5 usukane monk rapes a 0/5 usukane monk as far as damage go anytime anywhere capped accuracy or not.

there is actually a case, mentioned above the quote, which i agree: if the guy has the body but is missing legs. however, with the usual 4/5 (means missing body) you don't cap haste and you don't get enough store tp.

this is an ls meripo at mmj, we were all alone, cleaning whole area except stuff at north camp. 194 mobs, double minuet double march. both mnks used hedge pie. difference in gear was:

me: turban, kote, byakko, dunes, merman's, snipers, black thatl.
he: usu head, usu hands, usu legs, usu feet, ethereal, toreadors, tiphia

same gear: dest, forager's, pcc, black b, brutal

both capped merits in all relevant categories incl lolfullstr and /nin. we both know how to play mnk in meripo. he's elvaan, i'm mithra. we're pretty much equal, which is faaar away from your 4/5 rapes 0/5. however, against colis he wins without much effort, as my acc just plain sucks against those compared to what usu offers you.

[pchan]

there is actually a case, mentioned above the quote, which i agree: if the guy has the body but is missing legs. however, with the usual 4/5 (means missing body) you don't cap haste and you don't get enough store tp.

this is an ls meripo at mmj, we were all alone, cleaning whole area except stuff at north camp. 194 mobs, double minuet double march. both mnks used hedge pie. difference in gear was:

me: turban, kote, byakko, dunes, merman's, snipers, black thatl.
he: usu head, usu hands, usu legs, usu feet, ethereal, toreadors, tiphia

both capped merits in all relevant categories incl lolfullstr and /nin. we both know how to play mnk in meripo. he's elvaan, i'm mithra. we're pretty much equal, which is faaar away from your 4/5 rapes 0/5. however, against colis he wins without much effort, as my acc just plain sucks against those compared to what usu offers you.

How about using turban and byakko since you have them..

[Burnsy]

me: turban, kote, byakko, dunes, merman's, snipers, black thatl.
he: usu head, usu hands, usu legs, usu feet, ethereal, toreadors, tiphia

why the fuck would you wear dune boots unless you're sitting on footwork (lol) not trolling just asking why 0.0

[Burnsy]

read the post pchan, Aevis said he used turban/byakkos...

[pchan]

read the post pchan, Aevis said he used turban/byakkos...

You read, "he" is wearing usu head and leg, assuming during tp. I know Askar head are the new trend, but in this case 4% haste is pretty big.

Turban+ Dbody+ Okote+byakko+usu sune ate > 2004 gear gimped with Kick Attack boots. As a bonus he can use usu legs for TPs and head even ...

[mdkuser]

both capped merits in all relevant categories incl lolfullstr

Really at some point, people need to stop regurgiating (sp) what they are fed with, and think a bit. STR is not LOL for any DD, even monk. The reason STR is not so important for monk, is because They cap fstr MUCH faster than other DDs, and beause for any str gear they can use, then can have a better accuracy, haste or attack gear. Thats the power of full usukane: caped haste, shit loads of acc and str...

[Aevis]

How about using turban and byakko since you have them..

i don't understand the question, i used them and he was going for usu stuff. that meripo was held back in february as a simple test of how his 4/5 usu matches against mine 0, while not mixing any oldschool/newschool stuff together. he was only wearing togi because...he didn't have usu body.

why the fuck would you wear dune boots unless you're sitting on footwork (lol) not trolling just asking why 0.0

back there i was running some tests how dunes do against fumas on me with my gear at that point. i now have usu feet and wouldn't change them for anything, but back there it was fumas vs dunes for me.

Really at some point, people need to stop regurgiating (sp) what they are fed with, and think a bit. STR is not LOL for any DD, even monk. The reason STR is not so important for monk, is because They cap fstr MUCH faster than other DDs, and beause for any str gear they can use, then can have a better accuracy, haste or attack gear. Thats the power of full usukane: caped haste, shit loads of acc and str...

the main reason i mentioned capped str was because i said all out on merits, no matter on the relevance. i have sam and rng too..

[pchan]

i don't understand the question. that meripo was held back in february as a simple test of how his 4/5 usu matches against mine 0, while not mixing any oldschool/newschool stuff together. he was only wearing togi because...he didn't have usu body.

Being 4/5 doesn't mean you don't have to use byakko and turban.

[Aevis]

of course not, it's silly and that's what i was trying to say all the time....going 4/5 usu at mmj won't do you better at mmj than 0/5. better mix it up and macro until you're 5/5.