Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[FailureMidgard]

So when I asked about whether it affects other jobs, that wasn't a rhetorical question.

For RNG alone, X SAM -> XI SAM does the following:

RNG/notSAM:
E-bow (w/o Rajas) goes from 6-hit to 5-hit
HF+1 goes from 5-hit to 4-hit

RNG/SAM:
E-bow (with Rajas) goes from 5-hit to 4-hit
O-bow goes from 5-hit to 4-hit

And just because the obvious response is "RNG doesn't count,", X -> XI takes Destroyers MNK from 16-hit (15 with Rajas) to 14-hit. Add usu feet and it goes to 13-hit. edit: If you include TP from Asuran (landing 7/8 hits for 87.5% accuracy), results are still the same; 2 less hits to 100 TP without Rajas, 1 less hit to 100 TP with.


IRONY

The only ranger I have ever seen parse anywhere remotely near a 2h DD is a KC rng, which is in a league of it's own. As for Ebow though, your math seems completely wrong.

17.6 TP/hit with 0 store TP. 14 Store TP is needed for a 5 hit, 43 Store TP needed for a 4hit.
RNG/SAM has 15 base, needing 28 more to hit 4hit, which occurs on an 8, but not a 7. They seem in the same boat as a SAM...
RNG/WAR needs 14 store TP, which is given even on an unlucky #, but will however manage a 5hit>4hit jump on an 11 and 11 alone, with no other Store TP gear. Another good question is why the fuck said ranger doesn't get 14 Store TP on their gear. You apparently don't merit with well geared DD.

And yea, any dual wielders will obviously get a full hit removed...thing is, over half the time that's actually not giving you anything, or would you like to ignore that too? It only matters when it saves a swing delay/animation, not just when you get your TP on your first hit, then punch again and kick. I specifically didn't do math on MNK because it's quite obvious that no matter what store TP they have, it ill drop a "hit". Not a swing.

{Edit: I'd do math on the other weapons you listed, but I'm sure you probably didn't, and I'd have the same result. Also, gonna wait for Thorny to come slap you because your ranger is an idiot for not getting any store TP.}

[Tsuki]

And just because the obvious response is "RNG doesn't count,", X -> XI takes Destroyers MNK from 16-hit (15 with Rajas) to 14-hit. Add usu feet and it goes to 13-hit. edit: If you include TP from Asuran (landing 7/8 hits for 87.5% accuracy), results are still the same; 2 less hits to 100 TP without Rajas, 1 less hit to 100 TP with.

You really should have stuck to the Ranger numbers. Graduating to MNK with rajas, and/or depending on hits of asuran fists just made the entire thing seem like you were grasping. I did actually take the time to work out at least the rng/not sam+ ebow values:

Rng/Not sam w/Ebow + Kabura/Demon arrows(no rajas/skadi):
14.8TP return (base) 7 hits to 100+tp
19.8TP return w/sam roll@X(+34stp & SAM in pt) as anticipated dropping it to 6 hits->100tp

whats interesting to note here is that this is 2 Store TP points off of achieving 100tp after 5 hits. Had the RNG had skadi pants and or rajas it would have broken the 5 hit and saved snake-eye for a much more better roll! Like Corsair's roll :D

[Spider-Dan]

The only ranger I have ever seen parse anywhere remotely near a 2h DD is a KC rng, which is in a league of it's own. As for Ebow though, your math seems completely wrong.

17.6 TP/hit with 0 store TP.

The f*ck are you smoking?

490 + 90 = 580
[(580 - 530) * 3.5 / 470] + 14.5 = 14.8

Seriously, WTF? Please explain how you arrived at f*cking E-bow getting over 17 TP/hit BASE.

And yea, any dual wielders will obviously get a full hit removed...thing is, over half the time that's actually not giving you anything, or would you like to ignore that too?

Did you ignore the part where I said that MNK will drop two hits if a) you don't have Rajas or b) you have Rajas + usu feet? Outstanding work, detective.

Edit: I'd do math on the other weapons you listed, but I'm sure you probably didn't, and I'd have the same result.

F*CKING IRONY

P.S. Since you're on my server, I'll be happy to parse my /ra RNG against any 2h DD you can summon. Preferably you.

[Tsuki]

The only ranger I have ever seen parse anywhere remotely near a 2h DD is a KC rng, which is in a league of it's own. As for Ebow though, your math seems completely wrong.

17.6 TP/hit with 0 store TP. 14 Store TP is needed for a 5 hit, 43 Store TP needed for a 4hit.
RNG/SAM has 15 base, needing 28 more to hit 4hit, which occurs on an 8, but not a 7. They seem in the same boat as a SAM...
RNG/WAR needs 14 store TP, which is given even on an unlucky #, but will however manage a 5hit>4hit jump on an 11 and 11 alone, with no other Store TP gear. Another good question is why the fuck said ranger doesn't get 14 Store TP on their gear. You apparently don't merit with well geared DD.

you sure your numbers are correct? seems like you're including /sam in for not /sam Ebow should return with 14.8 for /notsam and 17.02 for /sam. (this is using Kabura arrow or Demon though, which we should be.) we cannot count PPA delay into tping lol.

[Spider-Dan]

I did actually take the time to work out at least the rng/not sam+ ebow values:

Rng/Not sam w/Ebow + Kabura/Demon arrows(no rajas/skadi):
14.8TP return (base) 7 hits to 100+tp
19.8TP return w/sam roll@X(+34stp & SAM in pt) as anticipated dropping it to 6 hits->100tp

Congratulations, you "figured out" what I just told you, with a side order of "if you had different gear, the results would be different."

Had the RNG had skadi pants and or rajas it would have broken the 5 hit and saved snake-eye for a much more better roll!

Perhaps that was the reason why I said "E-bow(w/o Rajas)"?

[Tsuki]

The f*ck are you smoking?
490 + 90 = 580
[(580 - 530) * 3.5 / 470] + 14.5 = 14.8
Seriously, WTF? Please explain how you arrived at f*cking E-bow getting over 17 TP/hit BASE.
F*CKING IRONY

holy shit like it's clear the guy is miscalculating as /sam or he's using PPA delay. so yeah lets all flip out and call him stupid and ironic and w/e...

[Talint]

HAY GUYZ TP STORE IZ AWESOME

I swear I've read nonsense like this before...

[Tsuki]

Congratulations, you "figured out" what I just told you, with a side order of "if you had different gear, the results would be different."
Perhaps that was the reason why I said "E-bow(w/o Rajas)"?

sure thing, but the interesting note i added, is really quite interesting because you really come across this situation so often right? lets look at really, whats required for this.

you need a RNG, SAM, and COR in pt, together.
also, the rng must be using vali's/ebow+kabura/demon or HF/+1+silver.
(i'm sure you can use other bows too like, shigeto(LOL))
COR must be using sam roll, and be hitting specific values; 2, 11(if rng has skadi/rajas) or 2 and 10 if not.

Really, how often do you come across this situation?

[Spider-Dan]

holy shit like it's clear the guy is miscalculating as /sam or he's using PPA delay. so yeah lets all flip out and call him stupid and ironic and w/e...

Please explain how you can arrive at 17.6 TP with E-bow + any ammo + any subjob. Thank you.

P.S. Anyone that uses PPA for calculating an x-hit build deserves to be called a moron.

[The Stig]

Is he (Urat) 75? "merits are soooooooo far away"

[The Blackrose]

Please explain how you can arrive at 17.6 TP with E-bow + any ammo + any subjob. Thank you.

P.S. Anyone that uses PPA for calculating an x-hit build deserves to be called a moron.

Closest I think that could work is E Bow + 90 Delay Arrow (14.8 ) + /SAM (15) + Rajas (15) for 1.20 STP, but that goes to 17.7. But yeah, lack of an explanation is a hindrance.

[FailureMidgard]

The f*ck are you smoking?

490 + 90 = 580
[(580 - 530) * 3.5 / 470] + 14.5 = 14.8

Seriously, WTF? Please explain how you arrived at f*cking E-bow getting over 17 TP/hit BASE.


Did you ignore the part where I said that MNK will drop two hits if a) you don't have Rajas or b) you have Rajas + usu feet? Outstanding work, detective.


F*CKING IRONY

P.S. Since you're on my server, I'll be happy to parse my /ra RNG against any 2h DD you can summon. Preferably you.

My bad, I was just adding bow + arrow TP values, didn't really know how TP gain worked for bows.

I guess your numbers are right at least. My excuse for not knowing how ranger TP works is the same as whatever yours is gonna be for not knowing the attack cap is a display thing only.

That being said, I'm not sure why you're pointing out borderline cases. Why does 1 ranger use a Rajas, and 1 not? Are you seriously going to look and compare his sub and ring/leg slot to figure out if it's worth snakeeyeing a 10>11? All you've done is convince me even further it's probably better to save it for a 7>8. That will help 100% of the time in a decent party (maybe not with Urat, who thinks haste>6hit), since you don't do SAM roll without a SAM.

And your mnk shit is retarded and you missed the point. Sometimes it will help, sometimes it won't. It's entirely random with accuracy rolls, kick procs, DA procs, etc. Store TP is a nice stat for monk. It's definitely better to have 16 of it for free. But that will -NEVER- compete with the difference of a 7>8 for a Samurai. Sometimes it will save the monk a swing, sometimes it won't, and the chance for it not to is way higher than you probably want to admit.

As for parsing vs you, sure, but the other thing you're missing about a ranger is it lowers melee DD if you're asking for shitty bard songs (read: anything that doesn't include double march). Every single melee job in the game benefits more from double march than march/minuet.

[Tsuki]

As for parsing vs you, sure, but the other thing you're missing about a ranger is it lowers melee DD if you're asking for shitty bard songs (read: anything that doesn't include double march). Every single melee job in the game benefits more from double march than march/minuet.

I'm totally making a mule to watch this, i'm ranger and sam so i have no bias, but interested to watch nonetheless, also lets just skip the bard songs altogether since it'll only create issues.

[Spider-Dan]

That being said, I'm not sure why you're pointing out borderline cases.

Because you said there was "only 1 situation" where X -> XI made any difference, so I figured I'd list 4 for one job, alone. Note that two of those cases are regardless of rajas (O-bow /SAM, HF+1 /notSAM).

All you've done is convince me even further it's probably better to save it for a 7>8. That will help 100% of the time in a decent party (maybe not with Urat, who thinks haste>6hit), since you don't do SAM roll without a SAM.

Let's try this again and see if we've learned anything:

When you say that VII -> VIII will help "100% of the time," do you mean that it will help SAM 100% of the time? Or do you mean that it always decreases x-hit builds for EVERY job?

I mean, given that you've already shown that (in your opinion) any roll total that doesn't help SAM is not worth rolling, the question is almost academic. But I'd just like to clarify.

And your mnk shit is retarded and you missed the point. Sometimes it will help, sometimes it won't. It's entirely random with accuracy rolls, kick procs, DA procs, etc. Store TP is a nice stat for monk. It's definitely better to have 16 of it for free. But that will -NEVER- compete with the difference of a 7>8 for a Samurai. Sometimes it will save the monk a swing, sometimes it won't, and the chance for it not to is way higher than you probably want to admit.

If you want to argue about who is bringing more to the table and which DD we should target for rolls, be my guest. But that's not what we're talking about. X -> XI definitely does help many jobs... just not SAM. You just believe that SAM is more important than the rest.

As for parsing vs you, sure, but the other thing you're missing about a ranger is it lowers melee DD if you're asking for shitty bard songs (read: anything that doesn't include double march). Every single melee job in the game benefits more from double march than march/minuet.

Can do double BRD if you want (2x march/min). Since I'm RNG, I'm used to being screwed on buffs, but I figure bird/wivre camp will make us square.

[FailureMidgard]

Because you said there was "only 1 situation" where X -> XI made any difference, so I figured I'd list 4 for one job, alone.


Let's try this again and see if we've learned anything:

When you say that VII -> VIII will help "100% of the time," do you mean that it will help SAM 100% of the time? Or do you mean that it always decreases x-hit builds for EVERY job?

I mean, given that you've already shown that (in your opinion) any roll total that doesn't help SAM is not worth rolling, the question is almost academic. But I'd just like to clarify.


If you want to argue about who is bringing more to the table and which DD we should target for rolls, be my guest. But that's not what we're talking about. X -> XI definitely does help many jobs... just not SAM. You just believe that SAM is more important than the rest.


Can do double BRD if you want (2x march/min). Since I'm RNG, I'm used to being screwed on buffs, but I figure bird/wivre camp will make us square.

I'm saying that a 7>8 will always help at least one person. A 10>11 will many times not, but sometimes will. Past that, when you look at a job like mnk, a 10>11 is adding less damage to them than a 7>8 adds to a single Samurai. I was wrong saying only 1 job could possibly benefit from it, however, you should still Snake eye 7>8 whenever you end on a 7 if you have a SAM in the party, if you would consider Snake eye 10>11. If you want to always save it for COR roll, I'm cool with that too.

Sam is the probably the highest WS:TP ratio job there is. If 2 jobs go from the same X hit build to an X-1 hit build, 1 sam will get more added than any other job will. There are some borderline cases where it may be worth doing a 10>11, but that being said, you should still always use your snakeeye cooldown for 7>8 with a sam in the party if you plan to use it on a DD roll at all, as opposed to cor roll.


As for parsing, melee gains more than rangers inherently from buffs. I think that is the direct reason I've never been impressed by a ranger. I think with no bard, a ranger will destroy me, but I get 35% haste from march/march/haste. If you just assume haste as a baseline, 2 marches goes from 34>54 haste, or 1.471 > 2.174, or 47.8% increase in all damage. No 2 songs can come close to giving that for a ranger, afaik.
[edit: last line wasn't directed at you really]

[Hosom]

Let's compare, azoth to hagun. According to common belief, people generally feel 2 handed weapons tp twice to three times as fast as one handed weapons. With no numebrs to back it up, I can't imagine why.

Azoth: D=210 TPS=5.7

60/(210/60)x5.7 = 97.7 TPM

Hagun: D=450 TPS=11.5

60/(450/60)x11.5 = 92 TPM

Whoa hold up, Basewise, azoth out tps a hagun, that can't be right... But it's true, every weapon in the game has 90~110 tpm, period.

I honestly can't believe I'm feeding you. Read the bold parts first, they're important. Please also keep in mind that my sole purpose is to point out (albeit nicely...you did post in standard after all) that you have entirely no idea what you're talking about.

Here we go -.-

Flaw 1.

You didn't include Store TP in your calculations for Hagun. Because Hagun can only be equipped by a 75 Sam...the base values that you provided are wrong.

At 14% TP/Swing, which btw, is the lowest amount of TP a Hagun can give you, you would have (by your formula which I'm not even going to check, because proving you wrong with your own math means more to me) 112 TPM.

Because your first calculation was off, I'm going to assume that every calculation afterward was off too, good day sir.

[Greatguardian]

I don't use Samurai roll in exp. Ever. For this exact reason.

I'm not going to sit around for 10 minutes before a party starts, taking every melee DD's gear and Merits (in Sam's case) into account so I know exactly what rolls I need to land on, and who is going to be gimped as fuck for 5 minutes when I just can't hit it that round.

As for CORs stopping on 7, that's more of a habit from playing the job for a while. Most effective party rolls have unlucky numbers between 7 and 9. Doubling up from a 7 has a 50% chance of giving you less than what you started with, either via rolling unlucky or busting. Even in the case of Samurai roll, getting a 7 leaves you a 33% chance of flat out busting. I have capped Group 2 merits, and even with that I simply don't like busts. Fold is on a 7:30 timer (as it should be), and I can't just keep erasing my own busts when Sams can't get their pew-pews off one round or another. To hell with it all, just use Chaos and get a buff that gives consistent returns versus one that gives nothing at all to half the DDs half the time.

[Spider-Dan]

I was wrong saying only 1 job could possibly benefit from it, however, you should still Snake eye 7>8 whenever you end on a 7 if you have a SAM in the party, if you would consider Snake eye 10>11. If you want to always save it for COR roll, I'm cool with that too.

If we are talking about what to do in practice, again, there are more issues.

In merits, the only time to use SAM roll is if you have two CORs (roll priority is Corsair's>Chaos>other stuff). So if you have two CORs, and one of those CORs is almost certainly single-wielding, -1 hit to 100 TP becomes significant at any total (even more so if one of the CORs is /DNC).

Sam is the probably the highest WS:TP ratio job there is. If 2 jobs go from the same X hit build to an X-1 hit build, 1 sam will get more added than any other job will.

Disagree. RNG has stronger WS than SAM (in merits) and double attack doesn't proc on ranged (meaning that the only time RNG winds up with "excess" TP is Barrage or when they take damage). The comparison then comes down to "who deals more damage against that target?" which we will see shortly.

[FailureMidgard]

I kinda agree with not using SAM roll in exp, but I don't think that was the discussion. I said in another thread (forgot where) that while SAM roll did more for me when on proper #s, I generally just take fighter/chaos instead, even though they are worse, because they aren't a pain.

And I never said Sam has a stronger WS, I said we get a larger percentage of our damage from WS. There is a very distinct difference between those statements.

2 WSes for 1200 is better than 1 WS for 2000.

Also, I hope you aren't expecting me to use a GK on birds, 'cause that's plain dumb.

[Yugl]

Sam is the probably the highest WS:TP ratio job there is. If 2 jobs go from the same X hit build to an X-1 hit build, 1 sam will get more added than any other job will. There are some borderline cases where it may be worth doing a 10>11, but that being said, you should still always use your snakeeye cooldown for 7>8 with a sam in the party if you plan to use it on a DD roll at all, as opposed to cor roll.

RNG can hit 2.9k+ DMG WSs with good gear or at least 2.7k+ on a consistent basis with moderately good gear. It doesn't DA attacks, lacks haste aside from snapshot, and cannot DA attack (Can crit though). If by WS:TP you mean WS DMG: TP hits (6-hit build or w/e), RNG easily beats SAM.

Edit: Saw what you meant in your last post, but yeah, RNG > SAM for WS:TP DMG.