Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[Greatguardian]

He/She means that, on a parser when comparing the total WS dmg and total Melee/TP damage a job has done over time, SAM will have a high ratio of WS : TP damage. Ie: 20,000 WS dmg per 15,000 TP dmg. I really don't know where RNG stands on that, though.

Assuming they hit 300dmg/shot (Hell if I know if that's low/high/whatever), take 6 hits to 75, and crank out a 3k WS. That's exactly a 5 : 3 ratio on WS:TP damage, which is slightly higher than the average Sam's WS:TP ratio. RNG also never has to deal with overflow TP from double attacks, and has very consistent damage per shot/WS.

[Spider-Dan]

And I never said Sam has a stronger WS, I said we get a larger percentage of our damage from WS. There is a very distinct difference between those statements.

What you said is that SAM benefits more from x-hit than any other job. I disagreed for two reasons:

1) RNG winds up with excess TP less often than SAM (x-hit is wasted on certain 2A procs and on odd TP ticks from SAM main meditate), so x-hit for RNG means RNG executes WS on that exact hit more often than any other job
2) RNG gets an incredibly large amount of its damage from WS

Also, I hope you aren't expecting me to use a GK on birds, 'cause that's plain dumb.

If you had, it would have been a laugher.

I usually merit against PLM SAM, so I'm prepared.

[Max™]

I foresee this argument having decreasing returns.

[FailureMidgard]

He/She means that, on a parser when comparing the total WS dmg and total Melee/TP damage a job has done over time, SAM will have a high ratio of WS : TP damage. Ie: 20,000 WS dmg per 15,000 TP dmg. I really don't know where RNG stands on that, though.

Assuming they hit 300dmg/shot (Hell if I know if that's low/high/whatever), take 6 hits to 75, and crank out a 3k WS. That's exactly a 5 : 3 ratio on WS:TP damage, which is slightly higher than the average Sam's WS:TP ratio. RNG also never has to deal with overflow TP from double attacks, and has very consistent damage per shot/WS.

5:3 is lower than an aggressive SAM. It may be higher than an average sam...

Not sure on rangers really.

And I like how piercing vuln is just assumed, heh, not that pole sam is bad by any means, but ya...

[Spider-Dan]

He/She means that, on a parser when comparing the total WS dmg and total Melee/TP damage a job has done over time, SAM will have a high ratio of WS : TP damage. Ie: 20,000 WS dmg per 15,000 TP dmg. I really don't know where RNG stands on that, though.

http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/rng75-072708.html

Do not take that parse as gospel (FFXIParser has some problems, which is why it shows staff RNG with 11000+ melee damage and 58% accuracy), but it's within shooting distance (SEE WHAT I DID THERE) of newer parses that I don't have access to at work.

So yeah, my ratio of WS/TP damage is 130922:78216.

P.S. 74BLM was invited to meleeburn because they were dualboxing outside healer.

[Yugl]

If doing WS:TP DMG, do you include overkill? RNG is a one hit maneuver, but Penta is a 5 hit WS meaning TP/Extra DMG doesn't add into the equation. If that's the case, it would tilt WS:TP DMG in favor of RNG.

[Reiokyu]

I foresee this argument having decreasing returns.

Likewise. Although it is indeed fun to read.

[FailureMidgard]

http://venomweb.150m.com/logs/rng75-072708.html

Do not take that parse as gospel (FFXIParser has some problems, which is why it shows staff RNG with 11000+ melee damage and 58% accuracy), but it's within shooting distance (SEE WHAT I DID THERE) of newer parses that I don't have access to at work.

So yeah, my ratio of WS/TP damage is 130922:78216.

P.S. 74BLM was invited to meleeburn because they were dualboxing outside healer.

1. That sam was tanking a vast majority of the time, probably lost tons of damage to feather tickle. Look at that damage taken ratio.
2. Either that sam got realllly screwed on feather tickle, wasn't as aggressive as they could be, and/or didn't have a true 5hit (this goes more with feather tickles, but exaggerates the loss to each feather tickle). But their WS # to melee # is lower than mine is. Then again, a ranger also isn't an ideal co-DD for sharing hate...

[Hosom]

I foresee this argument having decreasing returns.

/golfclap.

Appreciated that.

[Spider-Dan]

1. That sam was tanking a vast majority of the time, probably lost tons of damage to feather tickle. Look at that damage taken ratio.
2. Either that sam got realllly screwed on feather tickle, wasn't as aggressive as they could be, and/or didn't have a true 5hit (this goes more with feather tickles, but exaggerates the loss to each feather tickle). But their WS # to melee # is lower than mine is. Then again, a ranger also isn't an ideal co-DD for sharing hate...

I didn't post that parse to try to prove who will outdamage whom (again, we will see shortly), but rather what my WS:TP ratio was (in that case, 1.67:1).

[FailureMidgard]

I didn't post that parse to try to prove who will outdamage whom (again, we will see shortly), but rather what my WS:TP ratio was (in that case, 1.67:1).

My comments only went towards the sam's ratio in that parse.
If anything, it looks like rng and sam are very close to the same ratio.

[Greatguardian]

Isn't that the point? That jobs other than SAM can get a large overall boost from an increase in x-hit from Samurai Roll, because their WS:TP ratios are so high?

Edit: I really think the point Dan's been trying so hard to make is that CORs can't simply look at the SAM and roll numbers based on what benefits them. Even when the same numbers should benefit other 2-handers as well, every player is different and a lot use Pseudo-xhits, and others overflow/underflow what they should be using for STP. RNG is just a prime case of a job that needs a higher roll than SAM to get a new x-hit, and one with a very high WS:TP ratio at that. That's all.

[FailureMidgard]

Isn't that the point? That jobs other than SAM can get a large overall boost from an increase in x-hit from Samurai Roll, because their WS:TP ratios are so high?

Edit: I really think the point Dan's been trying so hard to make is that CORs can't simply look at the SAM and roll numbers based on what benefits them. Even when the same numbers should benefit other 2-handers as well, every player is different and a lot use Pseudo-xhits, and others overflow/underflow what they should be using for STP. RNG is just a prime case of a job that needs a higher roll than SAM to get a new x-hit, and one with a very high WS:TP ratio at that. That's all.

Err, my entire point is that Sam has the highest WS:TP ratio of any melee. I'm not too well versed/exposed to rangers in merit situations. The higher your WS:TP ratio is, the more damage you are gaining by upping the WS portion even more (when equal total damage is assumed). That was my only point. In a party with like mnk, sam, drk - If all are doing the exact same damage and sam roll is a given (which is probably the wrong call, but we're debating sam roll here), then you're prob best off using Snake Eye to benefit the same for 2 reasons:
1. He has the highest WS:TP ratio while having a same or lower hit build (going from a 5hit to 4hit is a bigger increase than a 6hit to 5hit).
2. You'll use your cooldown more often, as 7 is a much more likely number to hit than 10. Saving it for a 10 will potentially waste your cooldown.

As for what a cor can do, I dunno what Dan's point is. My only point is with Sam roll, you shouldn't always just save it to hit 11 or lucky. IF you are going to use Sam roll in merits, you should really have an idea as to what #s benefit whom (and as an extension of that, what #s do absolutely nothing for whom). I'm cool with a COR using Snake Eye to go 10>11 as long as that drops a hit for 1 person in a party. I have definitely seen the 10>11 in parties where nobody at all cared with it, and just after that they sit on a 7 with 2 sam in the party. That shit is stupid.

TL;DR - Good cors are good. A lot of cors are lazy/bad and probably shouldn't even bother using SAM roll.

[Spider-Dan]

Ultimately, my point was that COR shouldn't tailor rolls to one specific party member, and should instead just roll for highest average and let the chips fall where they may. More TP is more TP, and there are enough random factors (2A, damage taken, multi-hit WS, etc.) to reasonably say that more TP = good. (If you have DNC or /DNC, this is doubly true.)

If it really comes down to what is and isn't a waste of Snake Eye, I'd probably be inclined to avoid use of Snake Eye on SAM roll altogether; you effectively never stay on unlucky and it's not the greatest roll anyway (again, except for dancers).

[FailureMidgard]

Just for information's sake, did a short merit party, had a few uhh, special people in it, my ratio was 179840:97705 or 1.84:1, and really, I wasn't playing near as aggressively as normal, was eating dinner during part of it.

[Shinryuu]

Fighter's roll on average cuts at least a hit for everyone AND boosts WS damage AND TPing damage, why the fuck are you discussing SAM roll.

[Yugl]

Fighter's roll on average cuts at least a hit for everyone AND boosts WS damage AND TPing damage, why the fuck are you discussing SAM roll.

Talking about RNG mostly. They don't get any of that (Ranged Attacks can't DA).

[Shinryuu]

Fair point. (Though I don't think there's a lot of situations where there's RNGs and you wouldn't Chaos/Hunter's.)

[urat]

Glad to see this topic isn't degrading and is actually being used.

Was wondering if anyone here with a better udnerstanding of the games DA/TA system could help me fit it into my equation, I think DA is simple a ("Weapon proc rate" x "number of hits -1") times your overall tpm.

On that note, been trying to figure out what would grant me a higher tpm, /sam or /nin, everyone is telling me /nin for its -20% weapon delay, but I'm a bit sceptical mainly due to /sam allowing me to gradually build tp on downtime in middle of run. On pop events where I can solo a weaker monster nearbye and build up to 300% tp manually this does not apply of course, but more to events like dynamis where the alliance got hit by a bad timed mjin and are recovering.

Here's my numbers, I'm actually going to use cobra knives and my airy buckler in equation, since cobra knives do in fact have the highest dagger tpm in game, nearly 5 more than the average dagger.

For dual wield I simply change 3600/D to 3600/[(D1+D2)x0.8]

Airy buckler gives me 2 tp store and 1% haste, on top of my tping armors total 17% already (no swift belt yet ;_

For ninja: 2 cobra knives + 17% haste =

[3600/(171x2x0.8x0.83)]x(4.93x2) = a whopping 156.31 tpm :O

/sam grants me 15 tp store, plus the ability to freely use airy buckler along with meditate, so

(3600/171x0.82)x(4.93x1.17) = 148.07 tpm, +20 for meditate (60 tp on use, 3 minute recast) for a total of 168.07 tpm

thus, /ninja = 156.31 tpm, /sam = 168.07

I think I did that right, does anyone see any problems? If so please point them out.

[Cream Soda]

Fighter's roll on average cuts at least a hit for everyone AND boosts WS damage AND TPing damage, why the fuck are you discussing SAM roll.

Doesn't boost mnk ws dmg ; ;