Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[Spider-Dan]

Actually, after some consideration, I was thinking something more along the lines of:

BRD/NIN sings double min to both
BRD/WHM sings double march to SAM, prelude+(etude or pian min2) to RNG

[FailureMidgard]

All I can say at this point is that a COR should never, ever use SAM roll in any party you are in, period.

I'm fine with that, but you should extend it past my parties, because what I'm typing here is about optimizing, which sam roll rarely does since most cors (sounds like you included) really don't know how to use it to it's best. The fact you think I would want it with a polearm is appalling though, really. In merits, I prefer fighter/cor, but end up with chaos/cor a lot, exactly because of this discussion.

And you're missing the point that regardless of the impact of march on melee, minuet still does more for melee (i.e. something) than march does for rangers (i.e. nothing).

So if we are talking about march1 helping melee significantly and RNG not at all, vs. min4 helping everyone significantly, the normal compromise would be min4.

Which is again just a gain for the ranger. If the bard minuets the ranger and marches the melee, then we both get the same # of buffs, and we both get the buffs we want, which is a huge advantage for a melee (and also creates what I would consider a more realistic comparison).

So, to reiterate, you still objectively gain damage output over GKT. Shouldn't you naturally prefer birds by default?

If the goal is to as objectively as possible decide on how well rangers parse, then yea, I'd rather have it against a type-neutral mob, where we are both using our A+ weapons. Part of the reason I care about merit parsing is because it translates over to limbus (lowish man stuff), einherjar waves, salvage (after you get the gear), dynamis, etc.

As for my preference in a normal merit party where I don't care about the parse necessarily, and just want decent exp/hr, I'm really indifferent. Both camps have their positives and negatives, and you can't just look at "oh piercing gets +25%" and ignore everything else. I hate bird parties where I end up tanking every mob. I just get feather tickled to shit and it's miserable. If I have other decent DD that prevents that, I like the camp a bit more. In the end, whichever works.

[Malacite]

Rangers are a great job in low buff situations, or when you want to stay out of range. They just don't get near the benefit that melee get from bard songs, and on top of that it's annoying as hell for melee to party with them, as you end up losing damage whenever the ranger pulls hate, sometimes even losing a full WS/etc. Maybe I'm wrong and you'll impress me, but it seems to be you don't realize the magnitude of what double march does.

Have you never partied with a RNG/WAR dropping 3000+ damage Slugs on birds? Don't tell me RNG don't benefit from BRDs as well as melee do >_>

[Tubbers]

You gain a flat 25% moving from Mamool to Birds, I gain more in the vicinity of 10-15% due to the loss of ~50 weapon skill.

So, to reiterate, you still objectively gain damage output over GKT. Shouldn't you naturally prefer birds by default?

What? If you want to compare RNG damage output to SAM damage output correctly you should do it on mobs that don't give a damage bonus.

To give an example, let's say your RNG does 10,000 damage, and his SAM does 10,100 damage with GKT, or 8711 with polearm, on non piercing weak colibri equivalent mobs (I'm aware they don't exist).

In this example of numbers pulled from my head
SAM GKT > RNG BOW > SAM PLM

However, if you add in piercing bonus, you get this:
Bow: 12,500
GKT: 10,100
PLM: 11,615

Even though he is doing more damage at birds w/polearm than at non-birds w/gkt, his actual strength is comparatively lower.

[Tubbers]

Have you never partied with a RNG/WAR dropping 3000+ damage Slugs on birds? Don't tell me RNG don't benefit from BRDs as well as melee do >_>

Did you read anything that he said at all, or did you quote the wrong person?

[FailureMidgard]

Have you never partied with a RNG/WAR dropping 3000+ damage Slugs on birds? Don't tell me RNG don't benefit from BRDs as well as melee do >_>

You clearly have no background in math, ignored all my math, and only care about big numbers. -Nothing- can compete with what haste gives to melee in relatively equal amounts.

What? If you want to compare RNG damage output to SAM damage output correctly you should do it on mobs that don't give a damage bonus.

To give an example, let's say your RNG does 10,000 damage, and his SAM does 10,100 damage with GKT, or 8711 with polearm, on non piercing weak colibri equivalent mobs (I'm aware they don't exist).

In this example of numbers pulled from my head
SAM GKT > RNG BOW > SAM PLM

However, if you add in piercing bonus, you get this:
Bow: 12,500
GKT: 10,100
PLM: 11,615

Even though he is doing more damage at birds w/polearm than at non-birds w/gkt, his actual strength is comparatively lower.

This is exactly what I'm trying to say.

[Spider-Dan]

I'm fine with that, but you should extend it past my parties, because what I'm typing here is about optimizing, which sam roll rarely does since most cors (sounds like you included) really don't know how to use it to it's best.

And by "use it to its best" you, naturally, mean "stop only on the rolls that benefit me."

Which is again just a gain for the ranger. If the bard minuets the ranger and marches the melee, then we both get the same # of buffs, and we both get the buffs we want, which is a huge advantage for a melee (and also creates what I would consider a more realistic comparison).

In a hypothetical world where one BRD can sing 4-6 songs while pulling, sure.

If the goal is to as objectively as possible decide on how well rangers parse, then yea, I'd rather have it against a type-neutral mob, where we are both using our A+ weapons.

See, I'd think it's more useful to determine who parses better at the actual camps people merit at; it is quite relevant to say that DD A outdamages DD B at merit camp X. As SAM, you still have plenty of motivation to merit at birds; as RNG, I have absolutely no reason to merit on mamool. RNG choosing to merit on mamool now is like 2004 RNG choosing to merit at KRT instead of at sky... what's the point?

Part of the reason I care about merit parsing is because it translates over to limbus (lowish man stuff), einherjar waves, salvage (after you get the gear), dynamis, etc.

Um, no, not really. Those events translate more to level-up exp parties than they do to top-tier meriting. And those two things (exp and advanced meripo) are really not that similar at all.

[Spider-Dan]

What? If you want to compare RNG damage output to SAM damage output correctly you should do it on mobs that don't give a damage bonus.

a) SAM also gets a damage bonus, so I'm not sure what your point is.
b) Does the game somehow give you an exp bonus for killing mobs that don't take extra damage? At any given camp, damage is damage is damage.

Even though he is doing more damage at birds w/polearm than at non-birds w/gkt, his actual strength is comparatively lower.

So a question:

Since haste benefits him more than me, should we parse without haste and see whose base strength is "comparatively higher"? Or is that a completely ridiculous and arbitrary metric that no one gives a damn about?

THF has feint. Is it "unfair" for THF to parse vs. DRG at mamool, because normally DRG enjoys a larger accuracy advantage against lurkers and Feint wipes that out? Or is that just part of comparing the jobs?

[FailureMidgard]

And by "use it to its best" you, naturally, mean "stop only on the rolls that benefit me."

No, I said already I was fine with a cor snake eyeing from 10>11 when someone in the party needs it, but IF they are snake eyeing on sam roll at all, they should also do it from 7>8, which will actually benefit the party more in most situations.

In a hypothetical world where one BRD can sing 4-6 songs while pulling, sure.

Yea, that or double bard.

See, I'd think it's more useful to determine who parses better at the actual camps people merit at; it is quite relevant to say that DD A outdamages DD B at merit camp X. As SAM, you still have plenty of motivation to merit at birds; as RNG, I have absolutely no reason to merit on mamool. RNG choosing to merit on mamool now is like 2004 RNG choosing to merit at KRT instead of at sky... what's the point?

Don't get me wrong, I think I'll beat you on birds also (as do people I've talked to that have played with you and me), but it won't be as large of a margin. And sure, if I'm going to birds, I prefer DD that are good on birds, but this whole goddamn argument started with my assumption of a GK Sam in relation to Sam roll, so it's pretty funny that you're gonna say ranger is a better DD, and then refuse a mamool party.

Um, no, not really. Those events translate more to level-up exp parties than they do to top-tier meriting. And those two things (exp and advanced meripo) are really not that similar at all.

Huh? We do every limbus zone with no paladin, with melee burn, generally 2-3 melee, brd, rdm. We do salvage with the same setup. We do einherjar waves without a paladin too. All of those events, you want to maximize your damage in the exact same way as a merit melee burn party. You WS at 100% with no regards to pulling hate, and relying on seigan or shadows to keep you alive. Then again, all my good exp parties in the past year have run the same way too.

I'm really confused how you do said events. They all run the exact same as meriting...oh yea, and I did dynamis with you, and it's pretty much the same too.

[Spider-Dan]

No, I said already I was fine with a cor snake eyeing from 10>11 when someone in the party needs it, but IF they are snake eyeing on sam roll at all, they should also do it from 7>8, which will actually benefit the party more in most situations.

Already been over this. The only job who always benefits more from VII -> VIII is GKT SAM.

Don't get me wrong, I think I'll beat you on birds also (as do people I've talked to that have played with you and me), but it won't be as large of a margin. And sure, if I'm going to birds, I prefer DD that are good on birds, but this whole goddamn argument started with my assumption of a GK Sam in relation to Sam roll, so it's pretty funny that you're gonna say ranger is a better DD, and then refuse a mamool party.

No, the assumption that you made is that my RNG somehow had no concept of x-hit builds work and/or was completely incompetent.

As for mamool: as stated, meriting on mamool makes as little sense for me as meriting on bones. If I wanted to merit on mamool, I'd come as a different job.

Huh? We do every limbus zone with no paladin, with melee burn, generally 2-3 melee, brd, rdm. We do salvage with the same setup. We do einherjar waves without a paladin too. All of those events, you want to maximize your damage in the exact same way as a merit melee burn party.

Can't speak for Einherjar, but as for the rest:

a) Salvage depends too much on cell order to compare objectively, unless you are talking about after everyone gets everything unlocked (but before boss).
b) Limbus has way too many other factors- 2h box every floor, weap-spec, running from lone elemental to lone elemental (and high numbers of elementals/avatars in general), significant AoE WS like fluid spread/carnal nightmare/spinning claw, and mob 2h usage to compare to meripo.
c) Since you've done dynamis with me, you should already know that /NIN usage in that LS does not even remotely approximate that of /NIN in meripo. Outside of that, either you have mobs that are MUCH stronger than meripo (northlands) or use incredibly debilitating TP moves (CoP). The only mobs that approximate something close to meripo are city dynamis, and those mobs a) still spam 2hrs b) exist in a zone where HP/MP are refilled regularly.

Any non-primary-tanked PvE event is going to have a certain amount of similarity.

[FailureMidgard]

Already been over this. The only job who always benefits more from VII -> VIII is GKT SAM.

which is -always- in the party if you are using SAM roll (based on your earlier statement + the fact you're just not giving the sam a roll if you're doing it with a pole sam). You keep missing this fact. Some jobs just need a 3 on the sam roll in order to get their build. They aren't suddenly losing their build if you 7>8. And also one more time, I misspoke earlier, and am fine with 10>11 if you are -sure- it drops a hit for someone. But you shouldn't save snake eye for that either, use it on a 7 or on a 10, whichever comes first.

No, the assumption that you made is that my RNG somehow had no concept of x-hit builds work and/or was completely incompetent.

My assumption was made before you ever even brought ranger into the picture, actually. Remember when I said I didn't like it when they stopped on a 7? Yea, that is GK only. That is before ranger was brought up.

As for things relating to rangers and your competence, I was definitely wrong on how ranger TP works, my bad, but you still have no clue how to maximize damage for a party, and you have no clue apparently how to use sam roll properly, as you're still arguing that you should never snake eye a 7->8? You're fine using it for 1 person from 10>11, but not for 1 from 7>8.

As for mamool: as stated, meriting on mamool makes as little sense for me as meriting on bones. If I wanted to merit on mamool, I'd come as a different job.

I agree, but I thought the point of this parse was related to my statement that "The only ranger I have ever seen parse anywhere remotely near a 2h DD is a KC rng, which is in a league of it's own."
I don't invite rangers to any merit camp generally (excluding KC) anymore, but I'm even less likely to invite one to mamool.

Can't speak for Einherjar, but as for the rest:

*shrug* random mob types, you get piercing some, you get skeletons some. GK sam will average much higher than a ranger, easily. A good sam that can switch to pole on fliers will do even better.

a) Salvage depends too much on cell order to compare objectively, unless you are talking about after everyone gets everything unlocked (but before boss).

Bad salvage groups still think you -need- to have a mnk tank. Good ones realize that any DD works, and the DD you want to gear is the one that does the most damage. Our group has always worked under this premise. When we go out to a mamool camp and look at parses, the order there is the order we gear people in salvage. It is 100% related.

b) Limbus has way too many other factors- 2h box every floor, weap-spec, running from lone elemental to lone elemental (and high numbers of elementals/avatars in general), significant AoE WS like fluid spread/carnal nightmare/spinning claw, and mob 2h usage to compare to meripo.

Sure, limbus has other factors like that, but you can take those into account. If a ranger could actually win at say a mamool camp, it would matter. But the fact is a sam will do more damage normally, then also does more damage with his 2hr, implies based on a parse at a merit party, that when you go to limbus, your sam will probably do more there.

As for aoes, sure, base your group around what you're fighting, but using a parse from a bird camp is only a good guideline if you are fighting pure piercing vuln. If you are fighting "normal" mobs, use a parse from elsewhere. If you are doing SE apollyon, can a ranger even damage the skeletons with anything worthwhile? I'm still claiming that a mamool parse is easier to use as a baseline for what buffs you should use than a bird parse.

c) Since you've done dynamis with me, you should already know that /NIN usage in that LS does not even remotely approximate that of /NIN in meripo. Outside of that, either you have mobs that are MUCH stronger than meripo (northlands) or use incredibly debilitating TP moves (CoP). The only mobs that approximate something close to meripo are city dynamis, and those mobs a) still spam 2hrs b) exist in a zone where HP/MP are refilled regularly.

Beauc isn't really much stronger, Xarc is. I would definitely not approximate how DD will do in Xarc based on a merit party, but I would still say Gekko dominates.
As for CoP/etc, it is -very- similar to a merit party. Not exactly, sure. A sam/war in a merit party is suddenly sam/nin to avoid whirl claws or whatever, maybe rangers can keep a DD sub (or you were already /nin in merits?), so you gain a little damage there, I dunno.
The few times I did get to go sam to dynamis with that shell though, I parsed them, and completely destroyed every other DD there (then again, you have a sam that uses Hacchonenbutsu Dangozashi). Then I'd get stuck on bard next time in a party with a pup, a dnc, and 1-2 other DDs, and with all my bard songs, they' do less dmg combined than my sam would.
Don't get me wrong, not trying to knock the shell. I think it's actually a really good Dynamis shell, but it is -not- the DD that are making the shell good. The CCers/pullers are really good.

Dynamis parses really will look similar to merit parses

[Spider-Dan]

My assumption was made before you ever even brought ranger into the picture, actually. Remember when I said I didn't like it when they stopped on a 7? Yea, that is GK only. That is before ranger was brought up.

That just speaks to your total obliviousness to the effect of Samurai Roll on any job that isn't GKT SAM. I don't particularly hold that against you (you aren't a COR, so I don't expect you to know which totals to stay on) and in any case, parsing wouldn't tell us anything about what rolls I should stay on.

As for things relating to rangers and your competence, I was definitely wrong on how ranger TP works, my bad, but you still have no clue how to maximize damage for a party, and you have no clue apparently how to use sam roll properly, as you're still arguing that you should never snake eye a 7->8? You're fine using it for 1 person from 10>11, but not for 1 from 7>8.

For the fourth? fifth? time:

X -> XI affects pretty much EVERYONE that is not GKT SAM, and affects them MORE than VII -> VIII would affect them.

As for Snake Eye on VII? Sorry, going to save that Snake Eye for IX Evoker's or VIII Chaos. X Samurai barely merits Snake Eye; VII doesn't merit it at all.

I agree, but I thought the point of this parse was related to my statement that "The only ranger I have ever seen parse anywhere remotely near a 2h DD is a KC rng, which is in a league of it's own."

It was more related to:

"Another good question is why the fuck said ranger doesn't get 14 Store TP on their gear. You apparently don't merit with well geared DD."
&
"Also, gonna wait for Thorny to come slap you because your ranger is an idiot for not getting any store TP."

If I don't merit with well-geared DD, and I don't know WTF I'm doing on RNG, then parsing against you should reflect that, right?

Bad salvage groups still think you -need- to have a mnk tank. Good ones realize that any DD works, and the DD you want to gear is the one that does the most damage.

If only MNK was any good at dealing damage, right?

Prior to full unlock, MNK has an overwhelming advantage over other DDs in Salvage for reasons entirely outside of those that cause merit DDs to excel. Not sure how else to put it.

As for Limbus and Dynamis, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. AoEs (in limbus and dynamis) mean that jobs that would normally not sub NIN tend to do so for the sake of survivability. As a rather extreme example, do you seriously believe that in a situation where your SAM has to sub NIN, your limbus/dynamis parse against KC RNG and Ridill WAR (who sub NIN anyway) accurately represents how you would perform against them in merit?

Dynamis parses really will look similar to merit parses

Can I say that it is safe to presume that you believe that since you "destroyed" everyone in that shell in Dynamis parsing, you would also do so in merit? That's actually something I'd be willing to put a fair chunk of change on, mamool or not.

[Yugl]

Why is this turning into a RNG v SAM DMG debate. Wasn't the entire argument about whether RNG benefits from a roll or not?

*shrug* random mob types, you get piercing some, you get skeletons some. GK sam will average much higher than a ranger, easily. A good sam that can switch to pole on fliers will do even better.

SAM will do better than RNG, but even if they were the exact same DMG wise, SAM would win because good Einherjar shells use BRD Rotations (March 2x + Min2x + Ballad). This skews the results in SAM's favor.

For Odin, it changes in favor of RNG easily (Though SAM can still out DD RNG depending on how aggressive they are). They don't have to stop attacking for TP moves. They don't get hit by AoEs. Typically they gain buffs to back them up. It's a win situation for RNG.

As for aoes, sure, base your group around what you're fighting, but using a parse from a bird camp is only a good guideline if you are fighting pure piercing vuln. If you are fighting "normal" mobs, use a parse from elsewhere. If you are doing SE apollyon, can a ranger even damage the skeletons with anything worthwhile? I'm still claiming that a mamool parse is easier to use as a baseline for what buffs you should use than a bird parse.

Beauc isn't really much stronger, Xarc is. I would definitely not approximate how DD will do in Xarc based on a merit party, but I would still say Gekko dominates.
As for CoP/etc, it is -very- similar to a merit party. Not exactly, sure. A sam/war in a merit party is suddenly sam/nin to avoid whirl claws or whatever, maybe rangers can keep a DD sub (or you were already /nin in merits?), so you gain a little damage there, I dunno.

Tell that to the Attestation pets. Then again, beyond figuring out of the extra roll benefits RNG, I don't think the rest of these posts have meaning (Other than to set up a SAM v RNG argument and bash other people).

[FailureMidgard]

That just speaks to your total obliviousness to the effect of Samurai Roll on any job that isn't GKT SAM. I don't particularly hold that against you (you aren't a COR, so I don't expect you to know which totals to stay on) and in any case, parsing wouldn't tell us anything about what rolls I should stay on.

Huh? A Dragoon needs 51 storeTP to drop a hit, they have 26-28 base if they know what they are doing (depending which body they have). They need 22-24 more Store TP to drop a hit. That is a 5.

A Perdu Voulge war/sam needs 46 storeTP for a 5hit, or 83 for a 4hit. They need 22 for a 6hit. That's a difference of 24 storeTP to hit their 5hit, and they cannot hit a 4hit even with an 11.

A Perdu Scythe or Nagelring drk/sam is just a few delay off the warrior, I'm not even gonna bother with the math, but they need 1-2 more storeTP per build. Again, they need mid20s storeTP to drop a hit, and they cannot ever drop 2 hits.

I know what I'm talking about with 2h DD here. For all those jobs, unlike sam, a low SAM roll is useful. They all need a 5 or 7 to get their next build. But they still never need a snakeeye from 10>11.

X -> XI affects pretty much EVERYONE that is not GKT SAM, and affects them MORE than VII -> VIII would affect them.

Still believe this? truly?

As for Snake Eye on VII? Sorry, going to save that Snake Eye for IX Evoker's or VIII Chaos. X Samurai barely merits Snake Eye; VII doesn't merit it at all.

Evoker's? I've played rdm and whm in merit parties plenty, I tell bards to stop worrying with keeping ballad on me if they are falling behind in pulling. Really shouldn't need to use it there for sure.
And again, if you don't want to snake-eye sam roll at all, then fine. You are fucking awful at reading. IF you snake-eye sam roll, you should do it on 7>8 if you get it, and not save it for a 10>11. IF. That is the key word there. Using it on an 8 chaos is fine, or on corsair is fine.

If only MNK was any good at dealing damage, right?

Prior to full unlock, MNK has an overwhelming advantage over other DDs in Salvage for reasons entirely outside of those that cause merit DDs to excel. Not sure how else to put it.

You have no basis for that. I'm cool with a good mnk that does well being unlocked first. If a sam is generally higher damage, he probably should be unlocked first. That being said, different cells do affect the balance somewhat, but a mnk's advantage is on the first floor before getting weapons, after that, meh. Early str cell is huge for sam, early waist is huge for mnk.

[FailureMidgard]

Why is this turning into a RNG v SAM DMG debate. Wasn't the entire argument about whether RNG benefits from a roll or not.

No clue. It should be sam/war/drg vs rng. My statement is that a /ra ranger can't keep up with solid 2h DD in merits. Ranger has it's place, and there's times it's infinitely more useful than a sam. Merits (without a KC) is not that place.

[Shinryuu]

RNG can get 100 TP in 22 seconds (did maths sometime) Vali's. Sidewinder /SAM does like 2000 damage or so? 2x minuet, in a good merit party Dia II is on. Of course, 99% of all RNGs don't have a clue. Plus, it'd be better if it's 3 RNGs like that since the other melee will occasionally lose TP I guess.

Love how low-maintenance RNG is. All their haste comes from themselves. All their R.ACC pretty much does too. STR? Yep. Their 5-hit? Same. Just need attack buffs, and lots of 'em.

[Yugl]

RNG can get 100 TP in 22 seconds (did maths sometime) Vali's. Sidewinder /SAM does like 2000 damage or so? 2x minuet, in a good merit party Dia II is on. Of course, 99% of all RNGs don't have a clue. Plus, it'd be better if it's 3 RNGs like that since the other melee will occasionally lose TP I guess.

Love how low-maintenance RNG is. All their haste comes from themselves. All their R.ACC pretty much does too. STR? Yep. Their 5-hit? Same. Just need attack buffs, and lots of 'em.

Only 2k? Maybe it's the RNG I've PTed with, but on average, it's 2.7k or 3k with buffs.

[Spider-Dan]

Huh? A Dragoon needs 51 storeTP to drop a hit, they have 26-28 base if they know what they are doing (depending which body they have). They need 22-24 more Store TP to drop a hit. That is a 5.

A Perdu Voulge war/sam needs 46 storeTP for a 5hit, or 83 for a 4hit. They need 22 for a 6hit. That's a difference of 24 storeTP to hit their 5hit, and they cannot hit a 4hit even with an 11.

A Perdu Scythe or Nagelring drk/sam is just a few delay off the warrior, I'm not even gonna bother with the math, but they need 1-2 more storeTP per build. Again, they need mid20s storeTP to drop a hit, and they cannot ever drop 2 hits.

If everything you said is true, then for every DD you listed, VII -> VIII does not affect their x-hit build at all! So then, we are left with VII -> VIII doing nothing except increasing TP from multihit WS/damage taken, and X -> XI doing THE SAME THING BUT MORE. And for all the other DDs you didn't list? Yeah, asked and answered on that one. (Left unsaid is what occurs for 2h DD that have a SJ other than SAM, but whatever.)

Like I just said: the only roll total you care about is the one that specifically helps your GKT SAM.

[noodles355]

Actually, after some consideration, I was thinking something more along the lines of:

BRD/NIN sings double min to both
BRD/WHM sings double march to SAM, prelude+(etude or pian min2) to RNG

Puller brd should do marches, that way they always have double march to help with elegy recast.

[FailureMidgard]

If everything you said is true, then for every DD you listed, VII -> VIII does not affect their x-hit build at all! So then, we are left with VII -> VIII doing nothing except increasing TP from multihit WS/damage taken, and X -> XI doing THE SAME THING BUT MORE. And for all the other DDs you didn't list? Yeah, asked and answered on that one. (Left unsaid is what occurs for 2h DD that have a SJ other than SAM, but whatever.)

Like I just said: the only roll total you care about is the one that specifically helps your GKT SAM.

Huh? Are you fucking stupid? Are you seriously going to 10>11 in a party with a drg, sam, and war as your 3 DDs? That adds virtually nothing to the party at all. And I've said a million times that 7>8 is for the sam ya, but ITS BETTER THAN DOING 10>11 FOR NOBODY. How fucking stupid can you be?

As for melee that don't sub sam...why the fuck are you meriting with them. Back to you having no fucking clue what a good merit party is.

Also, if you notice, I just listed 2h DD, and I left out every non-2h DD. Look, I am perfectly fine with you Snake Eyeing any sam roll that gives at least 1 person in the party a new hit build (I've said multiple times now 10>11 is ok as long as you are sure it helps someone), however, when you make comments like

X -> XI affects pretty much EVERYONE that is not GKT SAM

which are blatantly false (as it helps no 2h DD) is pretty fucking dumb. You are seriously fucking retarded if you X>XI in a drg/sam/war party on sam roll. The extra TP is some small amount of WS damage, and in no way can compete with dropping a hit off the sam's TP cycle. And I guarantee you I don't sit there and try to optimize rolls for just me. I don't think I've even once ever had sam roll in a merit party. Furthermore, I almost always have chaos roll, which is pretty shitty for me compared to fighters.

As for 1h DD, yea, sure, some store TP helps them. I also don't merit with them, and their damage is generally awful. It's great seeing dagger/ridill wars at birds parsing at ~10% of the total party's damage.

I've been searching for you on and off all evening, are you actually gonna log on so we can parse this? Getting really sick of dealing with the retarded ideas you spew, and would like to put an end to it.