Haste vs TP Store (Not just for SAMS)

[FailureMidgard]

Actually, I was wrong, if you have 1 dragoon, should probably go with pup roll and drachen roll, because it affects just as many people as something to help the sam. My bad guys.

[Cream Soda]

lol not sure about all the ls pts and whatnot, but in the average pick up pt, most have to sub nin over sam (mainly looking at the wars here) and most of the time I have to keep seigan up more often than not on sam, sub nin on mnk, ect.

[FailureMidgard]

lol not sure about all the ls pts and whatnot, but in the average pick up pt, most have to sub nin over sam (mainly looking at the wars here) and most of the time I have to keep seigan up more often than not on sam, sub nin on mnk, ect.

There's nothing wrong with fulltime Seigan. Even when we get pickup red mages/etc, we still never have /nin DD (cept for like a mandau thf or a mnk perhaps). Seigan is perfectly fine, and a proper 6hit is huge for their damage.

/nin has it's place, but not merits.

[Cream Soda]

I'm just saying me personally as sam/war+ fulltime seigan. But most of the times, even with a fulltime seigan these shit pick up pts can't handle anything w/o /nin

You HIGHLY underestimate the nab prowess of Fairy pick up parties.

[Marcicus]

Actually, I was wrong, if you have 1 dragoon, should probably go with pup roll and beast roll, because it affects just as many people as something to help the sam. My bad guys.

ftfy, supreme wyvern fuck yeahhh

[Shinryuu]

Fulltime hassso or bust. Last time I've been on WAR/NIN was over a year ago. I only merit on WAR, unless I have to buffer something else. MNK/NIN is for nabs, by the way, way to not utilize berserk, 10% double attack, and one of the most offensive defensive abilities in the game.

[Cream Soda]

Fulltime hassso or bust. Last time I've been on WAR/NIN was over a year ago. I only merit on WAR, unless I have to buffer something else. MNK/NIN is for nabs, by the way, way to not utilize berserk, 10% double attack, and one of the most offensive defensive abilities in the game.

Hey, when it's /nin or ppl wont' pt with u, all that other shit goes out the window, lol

[Shinryuu]

No, their party goes out of the window on account of missing out on a good DD.

P.S. make your own parties

[Cream Soda]

Makes no diff. All the mages throw pissy bitch fits when I sub war and they just threaten to leave. Fucked on either side of the table whether I lfp or make one

Besides all my merits are capped for all 4 of my jobs. Just xp for ISP and buffer. So I'm not gonna sit around all night and wait for 30k/hr when I can do 20 fine.

[Argettio]

Fulltime hassso or bust. Last time I've been on WAR/NIN was over a year ago. I only merit on WAR, unless I have to buffer something else. MNK/NIN is for nabs, by the way, way to not utilize berserk, 10% double attack, and one of the most offensive defensive abilities in the game.

With 4 roughly equal DDs and a good RDM hasso can be full time.

1 sub par member and your full time hasso will lead to full time dead.

When some DDs out there can not function on SAM/WAR without getting themselves killed (fail at understanding seigan, third eye and hasso), suggesting full time hasso orny is a dangerous game.

[Shinryuu]

4 DD? How about 3 @_@

By the way it doesn't matter if the non-seigan/shadow melee are equal or if someone keeps hate fulltime really; only matters if some have berserk/counterstance and some don't. But birds don't have aoe and can only output x amount of damage anyway so the amount of HP cured is the same.

[Spider-Dan]

Huh? Are you fucking stupid? Are you seriously going to 10>11 in a party with a drg, sam, and war as your 3 DDs? That adds virtually nothing to the party at all. And I've said a million times that 7>8 is for the sam ya, but ITS BETTER THAN DOING 10>11 FOR NOBODY. How fucking stupid can you be?

So let me see if I can properly understand you. When you said:

Statistically speaking, you should never stop at 7. Furthermore, you should never Snakeeye a SAM roll from 10>11/etc.

...what you meant was, "You should always Snake Eye VII over X, unless you have any 1h/DW/H2H DDs in party, or RNG in party, or any of your 2h DDs are subbing anything other than SAM, or your SAM is meriting with PLM against birds." BUT OTHER THAN THAT, ALWAYS.

You're right... how can it be that every COR does not innately understand this crucial fact?

[FailureMidgard]

So let me see if I can properly understand you. When you said:



...what you meant was, "You should always Snake Eye VII over X, unless you have any 1h/DW/H2H DDs in party, or RNG in party, or any of your 2h DDs are subbing anything other than SAM, or your SAM is meriting with PLM against birds." BUT OTHER THAN THAT, NEVER.

You're right... how can it be that every COR does not innately understand this crucial fact?

I already contradicted my initial statement multiple times in this thread (10>11 is worth it in some situations, but my original frustration is when cors [like you] do it when nobody in the party gains a hit. I originally kinda assumed most people's parties were like mine, but that's obviously not the case.). You're really grasping at straws trying to bring this up 4 pages later.

Let me make this really simple for you.

Polearm sam = don't use sam roll, period. You shouldn't be using a roll that basically only affects 2 out of the 3 DD to begin with.
7>8 Snakeeye = always ok IF you assume 2 facts: 1. There is always a (decent/good) samurai in the party when you use Sam roll. 2. You are willing to use snakeeye on samurai roll.
10>11 Snakeeye = should -only- be used if it drops a hit from a 2h DD build OR the party is composed of at least 2 monks (other dual wield DD is garbage unless they have a relic...you can add mandau thf to this list if you want though).
And the most important rule = if you don't understand how storeTP works, you as a cor should never use samurai roll.

The problems are cors that 10>11 with 3 2h DD that don't need it, and they sit on a 7 with 1-2 sam in a party. End of story. I'm 99% sure based on everything you've said in this thread, you would do the same.
But really cors should probably just shy away from samurai roll and use fighter's in it's place in any full melee party. It's going to be a similar damage increase, for everyone, always, and you can stick to the simple statistics as to when it's worth doubling up, snake eyeing, etc. To use sam roll properly, you have to have a basic idea of how much damage each person is doing, and how much total damage the party will gain on various #s.

[Spider-Dan]

The problems are cors that 10>11 with 3 2h DD that don't need it, and they sit on a 7 with 1-2 sam in a party. End of story. I'm 99% sure based on everything you've said in this thread, you would do the same.

Personally, I just find it interesting that (given everything you've said in this thread), instead of saying to a corsair "never Snake Eye VII Samurai unless you have GKT SAM and two other 2h DDs that are subbing SAM," you choose to instead say "always Snake Eye VII" and then, after much cajoling and backtracking, say, "always Snake Eye VII except for this and this and this and that," while steadfastly maintaining the entire time that only you really understand how 2h DDing works. This after I have to explain to you that your own merit setup for a popular merit camp benefits A GREAT DEAL MORE from XI than VIII.

But really cors should probably just shy away from samurai roll and use fighter's in it's place in any full melee party. It's going to be a similar damage increase, for everyone, always, and you can stick to the simple statistics as to when it's worth doubling up, snake eyeing, etc. To use sam roll properly, you have to have a basic idea of how much damage each person is doing, and how much total damage the party will gain on various #s.

I do shy away from Samurai roll, but for reasons entirely outside of what you just said. There are only three situations where I would use SAM roll:

1) I have RNG in party and I'd rather give a buff that helps all my DDs (RNG only benefits from Chaos/Samurai/Hunter's, and Hunter's is almost never needed)
2) I'm in a dual COR merit party and we have SAM but no THF
3) I have DNC or /DNC in my party

So again, if we are arguing practicality, your reasoning is so far down the list that I'm unlikely to care by that point.

[Sho]

Too much rage over SAM rollz. Chaos/Corsair ftw situationally. Sorry I can't add anything else to the discussion.

[Yugl]

4 DD? How about 3 @_@

By the way it doesn't matter if the non-seigan/shadow melee are equal or if someone keeps hate fulltime really; only matters if some have berserk/counterstance and some don't. But birds don't have aoe and can only output x amount of damage anyway so the amount of HP cured is the same.

Abstract world: Shinryuu

Realistic Setting: Everyone else

When my SCH hit 75, I did merit mania (Less than a week of meriting to cap all magic/specific merits). During that period, I made all my PTs and I can tell you that what they say is true. For most of the time, I managed to have a BRD and COR. However, that was only because the same COR was willing to static and I knew most of the BRDs from outside merits. Take someone who doesn't have this luxury and it would be a four DD PT. Also, since I played DRG/RDM for main healing, there were no MP issues. However, on some mobs such as mamools, it's foolish to suggest that melees full time Hasso. Maybe on Colibri, there is no problem with full time hasso, but any good DD PT isn't going to solely fight those. In a setting where they aren't all good DDs, one DD will be taking all the hits and full-time hasso will cause the mages to leave. It's a simple fact. Real settings triumph over abstract. I notice a lot of math people here choose to set up abstract situations (They tend to say we'll assume you have X Buffs), but quite frankly, that does nothing for a real setting. Full time Hasso is not always an option. Full time Seigan is actually the more realistic scenario.

[FailureMidgard]

Personally, I just find it interesting that (given everything you've said in this thread), instead of saying to a corsair "never Snake Eye VII Samurai unless you have GKT SAM and two other 2h DDs that are subbing SAM," you choose to instead say "always Snake Eye VII" and then, after much cajoling and backtracking, say, "always Snake Eye VII except for this and this and this and that," while steadfastly maintaining the entire time that only you really understand how 2h DDing works. This after I have to explain to you that your own merit setup for a popular merit camp benefits A GREAT DEAL MORE from XI than VIII.

My god, sam roll should never be used if I have a polearm, seriously, keep up with the fucking conversation. It ONLY helps on a 2 or an 11, meaning the uptime on it being useful is somewhere less than 30% of the time, it's a fucking joke to even use sam roll with a polearm. You know how you said you'd rather use a roll that benefits all of your DD later in this post I'm referring to? SAM ROLL IS AWFUL FOR A POLE SAM. Sam roll is good for a GK sam, which is the whole fucking reason I refer to it with GK. Seriously, I have told sam's not to use it when they try when it's me and another pole sam, because it is USELESS.

You still don't get the point that I don't merit with /nin DD. I don't merit in subpar merit parties. Seriously, I'll bitch in a party doing 24-25k/hr (or I'll just semi half pay attention and contribute to the mediocrity while watching TV). I may stay a short bit, but most my meriting is in 29-30k exp/hr parties that run for 3-4 hours (depending how much exp people started with) with solid DD. Don't merit with shitty /nins, don't merit with dancers or /dnc. Yea, maybe some of what I say is biased by my parties and my experience, but a quality party (which is what I am interested in optimizing) has any 2h DD subbing sam. There's really no debate to be had on this issue. /nin has it's uses in Ein, and -some- cop dyna zones, but is still vastly overused. The only /nin we ever bring to salvage is either the thf, or for arrapago chariot (fuck that thing with seigan). Every other chariot/route in salvage we do with sam/war and 2h/sam.

So let's try this again for you.

Polearm sam gets little to no benefit from sam roll. At BEST you benefit from it roughly 25% of the time. Gee, thanks for giving me 1/4th of a roll. I am seriously done responding to your fucking idiotic statement that a pole sam benefits from an 11. Yes, they do, but they ONLY benefit from a 2 or an 11, which makes the roll a fucking waste of time. Is this really hard to grasp for you?

And your "this and this and this" exceptions are the fucking minority of the time. Seriously, do you want to ask some decent dragoons how much they sub nin? I regularly party with probably one of the best dragoons around, and he'd rather fucking switch jobs than have to do an event as drg/nin. It's just fucking terrible.

I do shy away from Samurai roll, but for reasons entirely outside of what you just said. There are only three situations where I would use SAM roll:

1) I have RNG in party and I'd rather give a buff that helps all my DDs (RNG only benefits from Chaos/Samurai/Hunter's, and Hunter's is almost never needed)

Cor/Chaos in exp...in other events, chaos/sam is good, as long as the corsair understands what #s are needed (not an 11 in any party I've ever been in).

2) I'm in a dual COR merit party and we have SAM but no THF

This one is valid at least, though I don't think I've ever had a 2-cor party except in ERonfaure.

3) I have DNC or /DNC in my party

Huh? This is a valid reason to drop the party maybe...you actually merit with a dancer?

[Shinryuu]

I want to try DNC WAR DRK COR BRD RDM. My idea is that:

Fulltime hasso + haste + march + march + haste samba (5/5 merited) + fighter's + chaos = clear everything from bottom birds to upper mamool and the wivre in between. Something about 80% haste.

[Spider-Dan]

My god, sam roll should never be used if I have a polearm, seriously, keep up with the fucking conversation. It ONLY helps on a 2 or an 11, meaning the uptime on it being useful is somewhere less than 30% of the time, it's a fucking joke to even use sam roll with a polearm. You know how you said you'd rather use a roll that benefits all of your DD later in this post I'm referring to? SAM ROLL IS AWFUL FOR A POLE SAM. Sam roll is good for a GK sam, which is the whole fucking reason I refer to it with GK.

Please stop acting like you understand roll probabilities. If I stay on II/VII+ and use Snake Eye on X, PLM SAM will have a "useful" total 42.34% of the time (and, you know, all other DDs gain more TP). Samurai Roll is only "good" for GKT SAM if you completely ignore all other DDs and either a) use up your Snake Eyes on a roll that benefits EXACTLY ONE PERSON or b) double your Bust likelihood and drop your average return for the benefit of EXACTLY ONE PERSON.

You still don't get the point that I don't merit with /nin DD. I don't merit in subpar merit parties.

You remember that section a couple pages ago when I explained the reasons why events are not the same as meripo and you dismissed it? Seems relevant now, for some reason.

I also like how in your version of the game, MNK is completely useless and is never brought to any event (or, for that matter, to meripo) because of how awesome 2h DD are.

Cor/Chaos in exp...in other events, chaos/sam is good, as long as the corsair understands what #s are needed (not an 11 in any party I've ever been in).

Once again, if I'm in a NON-MERIT party as COR, the chances of my party being comprised exclusively of 2h DD/SAM are not exactly considerable.

This one is valid at least, though I don't think I've ever had a 2-cor party except in ERonfaure.

Anyone that is not a COR main has a vanishingly small chance of ever having a 2-COR merit party.

Huh? This is a valid reason to drop the party maybe...you actually merit with a dancer?

Because we are totally talking about merit only! Here's a hint: in meripo I'm using Corsair's/Chaos(/Evoker's) 99%+ of the time.

Seriously, by your logic, I'm not sure why you don't just outright object to all use of Samurai Roll, period:

- you've already said that Fighter's is similar damage increase with less micromanagement
- you never party with RNG, the only job for which the above would not apply
- you never party with DNC, who would benefit more from any higher roll total, period
- you don't party with dual CORs at all

Why the f*ck are you obsessing over what CORs should and should not stay on for a roll that you don't even think they should be using? Are you going to follow up with a tirade about what roll strategies CORs should use for Monk's Roll?

[Talint]

Huh? This is a valid reason to drop the party maybe...you actually merit with a dancer?

Why would you not? Great DNCs shine in merits. They're much less maintenance than any healer with an MP bar, and can give you 10% more haste you can't otherwise get.