Next Version Update Scheduled for Late July! (06/08/2009)

[The Q]

I had this idea a while back. I don't remember where it was posted but it was largely ignored. Anyways I will try again.

Change Skill Chains to give MP to the party when executed. This could be modified by skill chain level, damage done, whatever.

Then change Magic Bursts to give TP to the party. This could be modified by whatever like above.

This gives incentive for people to work together as it could increase kill rate by lowering downtime using more efficient and team-based play.

Also, and I know this is already in effect for a select few mobs but it needs to be expanded on dramatically, give an XP bonus to killing Beastmen and other harder mobs. SE really needs to try to make it worth fighting harder stuff than just the weakest mob for the level range. If it is a more difficult fight then logically one should learn more from it.

Also I'd love to see def/VIT fixed to offer some real, noticeable damage mitigation and allow for more jobs to be able to tank (and by tank I don't just mean sub nin).

[BRP]

A clear option(though still wouldn't be enough to deal with the colibri) is to readjust the levels of several Original and Zilart areas to be higher level. Consider how many 60+ areas there are now with the release of CoP, ToAU, and WotG. Making merit camps in places like Toraimarai which have little to no use as of right now.

[TummieGaruda]

MP (For both BLM and SCH)/Kill Speed/Camps kill the XP capability of BLMs.

That is the biggest issue for BLM to participate in TP Burns. If a BLM were going to replace one of the melees in a party, they would have to contribute somewhere around 25% of the damage (4 Melee 1 brd 1 mage TP burn) on a consistent basis every fight. MP issues cause the BLM to rest and when they are resting they aren't contributing damage. They'd only be contributing damage in Bulk.

One way BLM could fit into a TP burn party without any issue is if they performed like a melee in that they spamed tier 1 spells as if they were melee damage and then nuked with a higher level spells as if they were a weaponskill. I had an idea while back where under a Job Ability spells that landed returned TP based on resist rate and mp cost, and once you get 100+% TP it opened up a high damage spell that cost 0 MP and reset the TP bar. Additional TP added a MAB. But I doubt anyone would really like that system lol.

[ronin sparthos]

3rd? PLD NIN RDM BLU DRK can all tank mobs at any or all levels of the game. Others probably could too, all that really matters is hate tools and haste gear for Ichi/ni timers. I don't see SE adding any tank+++ stuff ever.

My little suggestion about Beastmaster was directed more as a direction for the job to take. BST as a pet job that could tank is the best path the job could take in the life of this game as we have too many DD classes already. A disposable pet tanking class that could also DD is as good as it gets.

Even though DRK, BLU and RDM can tank, how many people are going to reach for one in a typical situation? How many people even know how to tank on these classes?

PLD and NIN are still the two defined tank classes in this game and the other jobs can occasionally come into the tanking role but even those classes have typical roles whereas BST has no real defined role.

[Gunitsoldier]

3rd? PLD NIN RDM BLU DRK can all tank mobs at any or all levels of the game. Others probably could too, all that really matters is hate tools and haste gear for Ichi/ni timers. I don't see SE adding any tank+++ stuff ever.

A tank job thats supposed to tank all the time, not through diff gear sets, jesus are you that blind?

[Cutriss]

I had this idea a while back. I don't remember where it was posted but it was largely ignored. Anyways I will try again.

Change Skill Chains to give MP to the party when executed. This could be modified by skill chain level, damage done, whatever.

Then change Magic Bursts to give TP to the party. This could be modified by whatever like above.

I read this suggestion on Alla about two years ago. The fact that I read it on Alla did not make it any less of an interesting idea.

I'm sure someone will be along to bash it forthright, however.

[BRP]

While tanking and stuff is cool and all... Killer Effects just need to see some hefty offensive bonuses. Attack, Accuracy, crit rate, all of the above. whatever.

[JigglyJam]

BST tank could be pretty cool.

I wish they would beef up killer effects for them to add accuracy and attack when fighting the specific mobs and up the intimidation rates.

EDIT: BRP get out of my head.

[ronin sparthos]

While tanking and stuff is cool and all... Killer Effects just need to see some hefty offensive bonuses. Attack, Accuracy, crit rate, all of the above. whatever.

You'd make Amorph earring into a multi-million gil item overnight, reviving 50-cap Garrison from its cold, icy dirtnap among other earrings.

[Gergall]

Really? 90%? I think someone has just been looking at the JAs without considering the equip needed for both arts. If I want to be 90% of a WHM, I need to be at the top of my game (Especially with the last update). SCH cannot carry all the equip it needs to change back and forth effectively. Moreover, there are tons of situations where BLMs can outdo SCH because of kill speed (An aspect that is becoming increasingly important). It's ridiculous to suggest that SCH is always playing two classes at once. Try using a 560/650 base MP (Dark/Light Art MP for Elvaan) and see if you can effectively be a BLM and WHM. When playing SCH, you tend to stick to one role and that's it. If you're suggesting that SCH should be lesser tier because it can change roles effectively (Which requires an overhaul in gear), then you might as well suggest that NIN/DRK/WAR/SAM/COR/RDM/MNK/BLU deserve to be lesser tiers DD/Support because they can change roles through gear/JAs.

The number I picked is arbitrary. Lets suppose that a SCH is 50% WHM and 110% BLM. I think it's obvious that this is still overpowered. Better than a BLM plus other stuff on top.

More often than not I think a SCH is better than a BLM.

Finally, I don't expect that a SCH is always playing two classes at once. I realize that the situations where the SCH switches back and forth are few and far between. I can name a few, such as Nyzul Hydra if you didn't bring a nuker and suddenly need one, or certainly any omgwtfbbq situation where the WHM dies and you need an emergency healer.

[The Q]

I read this suggestion on Alla about two years ago. The fact that I read it on Alla did not make it any less of an interesting idea.

I'm sure someone will be along to bash it forthright, however.

I didn't post it on Alla and it wasn't two years ago.

And for some reason I initially thought your reply had a negative connotation, so excuse me if I came across as hostile.

[Yugl]

The number I picked is arbitrary. Lets suppose that a SCH is 50% WHM and 110% BLM. I think it's obvious that this is still overpowered. Better than a BLM plus other stuff on top.

More often than not I think a SCH is better than a BLM.

I'm telling you that you're focusing on the out nuking potential too much. 110% suggests that SCH is better than BLM. In one aspect this is true. SCH excels at MP conservation compared to BLM. This is most obvious when it comes to chain nukes on one base MP. However, to suggest that SCH is better because of one aspect is ignorant. BLM output damage at a faster speed than SCH. In cases where there are hefty rest periods, the difference in MP conservation becomes negligent. The ability to stun saves a PT slot. Collective BLMs are more powerful than collective SCH. BLM can sub a completely defensive sub (NIN) without hindering their MAB (SCH relies on sub for MAB Bonus traits). BLM are less likely to resist and can therefore, stack more INT/MAB than SCH. There are many bits and aspects of BLM that individually do not amount to much against that once aspect of SCH, but collectively they do present a surmounting challenge to the MP conservation notion.

Finally, I don't expect that a SCH is always playing two classes at once. I realize that the situations where the SCH switches back and forth are few and far between. I can name a few, such as Nyzul Hydra if you didn't bring a nuker and suddenly need one, or certainly any omgwtfbbq situation where the WHM dies and you need an emergency healer.

That Hydra would be a situational case. I have ~600MP as Elvaan SCH. If I want to nuke, I have two options:

1. Waste a charges (2-3) nuking (In which case I may not even have)

2. Nuke using enlightenment (Wastes a bunch of MP)

In either case, gear limitations will diminish the overall DMG of nukes, thus making them very MP inefficient.

If you have a SCH and WHM at Nyzul Isle, chances are they're both healing. I can't imagine why you would place SCH in a PT to nuke during Nyzul Isle which has a TP burnish set up.

[Plow]

Oh god lol.

On SC+MBs:

SC+MB may be annoying but the option should be there for a good normal party to be able to go out and get good EXP. Currently you have a tier of Colibri/Mamool Ja (20k+/hr) and then for the typical party a bunch of other camps in TOAU/WOTG that cant even break 12-15k.

Qutrub (Lamia Idolators) had potential as they took double damage and encouraged SC+MB cooperation but they failed to have a family-specific EXP bonus so that camp turned out to be another 10k/hr wonder of the SE mind. Had Qutrubs been implemented better, it could have been a great place to get BLMs and DD together.

The problem with idolators is directly the fact that skillchaining outright isn't as efficient as having people ws at 100 tp. You can set up 3 part chains on them where the last ws + the skillchain do 10k+ total, you still could've killed the mob in half the time if people were just ws'ing at will.


Also the fact that they have PITA tp moves, and are in a fucking NASTY camp full of bones and lamiae.

[Tortalius]

That's only true if people aren't gaining TP at similar speeds. Get some good players and you'll notice TP gain speeds are rather similar among a lot of jobs.

[Damane]

Really? 90%? I think someone has just been looking at the JAs without considering the equip needed for both arts. If I want to be 90% of a WHM, I need to be at the top of my game (Especially with the last update). SCH cannot carry all the equip it needs to change back and forth effectively. Moreover, there are tons of situations where BLMs can outdo SCH because of kill speed (An aspect that is becoming increasingly important). It's ridiculous to suggest that SCH is always playing two classes at once. Try using a 560/650 base MP (Dark/Light Art MP for Elvaan) and see if you can effectively be a BLM and WHM. When playing SCH, you tend to stick to one role and that's it. If you're suggesting that SCH should be lesser tier because it can change roles effectively (Which requires an overhaul in gear), then you might as well suggest that NIN/DRK/WAR/SAM/COR/RDM/MNK/BLU deserve to be lesser tiers DD/Support because they can change roles through gear/JAs.

Actually they can bring all this shit around. I am sitting 67/70 (didnt do gobbys yet) on SCH when I do salvage. I have nukeing, enfeebling, healing, -enmity, SS, phalanx, enspell, MAB nukeing gear with me. I could opt some gear sets here and there, but I am like only 4-5 gearpieces away from beeing finished.

SCH has flaws tough and is realy not overpowerd, it shines in situations where you need healing + nukeing, but dont want/can not have the manpower to do it with more people.
Bhaflau remnants for example: on the first 3 floors, you will prolly be a healer, with some crowd control here and there, whereas on the 4. floor I switch entirely to nukeing to help kill the gears in time.
However I wouldnt want to do a unnerfed bhaflau boss again without a whm. You can clearly sea the difference between a Cure V and other cures after an unnerfed homeing missile :/.

On large scaled battles, where you have usually an alliance, SCH will loose poorly, because you most likely will have every role covered and there is no need for someone that can "switch" roles. Stun, sleepga, Sleepga II and Elemental Seal, are spells/abilitys that can decide the outcome of a battle/event (and mostly do).

I for myself, find SCH amazeing in lowman stuff, but the job itself lacks when it comes to large scaled battles, There are too many key spells/abilitys missing for that type of battle.

[Max™]

Didn't Killer effects give a haste effect for a short while before that was changed?

Anyway, Bst tanking.

*The Ability list of the Monster CourierCarrie has been changed to include the spells "Utsusemi: Ichi", "Utsusemi:Ni", "Flash", and "Stun".

*The effect of the Job Ability "Snarl" has been changed to generate an amount of base Enmity in addition to exchanging the current Enmity generated by the master upon using it.

[Plow]

That's only true if people aren't gaining TP at similar speeds. Get some good players and you'll notice TP gain speeds are rather similar among a lot of jobs.

Unfortunately, not the ones that chain together well ><

Only one that matches up particularly well I can think of is thf + war, or maybe thf + rng.

SAM and MNK chaining is wasting tons of SAM tp, SAM and anything really, MNK vs DRK tp rates might not be as bad these days as they were pre 2h I suppose.


And, most importantly, even if they are "similar" tp rates, any good 2h dd will tell you waiting 1 more swing before ws'ing is a freaking *huge* damage loss. End up waiting 2-3 swings every now and then and... yeah.

[Khamsin]

Unfortunately, not the ones that chain together well ><

Only one that matches up particularly well I can think of is thf + war, or maybe thf + rng.

SAM and MNK chaining is wasting tons of SAM tp, SAM and anything really, MNK vs DRK tp rates might not be as bad these days as they were pre 2h I suppose.


And, most importantly, even if they are "similar" tp rates, any good 2h dd will tell you waiting 1 more swing before ws'ing is a freaking *huge* damage loss. End up waiting 2-3 swings every now and then and... yeah.

And don't forget the most important issue: Most WARs and MNKs are too impatient to wait to SC with SAMs and DRKs and such.

[Plow]

There's also the issue of RR, Rampage, Guillo, Penta, etc., owning the living shit out of anything those jobs can do that chains worth a damn.


(pre-nyzul ws, that is)

[noodles355]

No, the problem is people not learning the basic SC properties of their good WSs and using them effectively.

Edit: Let's look at the "Good" WSs like Penta, Guillo, RR etc.

Dancing Edge>Penta Thrust Gravitation
Tachi Gekko>Asuran Fists Darkness
Guillotine>Raging Rush Fragmantation
Tachi Yukikaze>Sidewinder Fragmantation
Tachi Gekko>Evisceration Darkness
Slug Shot>Dancing Edge Distortion
Asuran Fists>Blade Jin Fusion


The option is there, it's just no one bothers to try it.
If you're on Thf and you get 100%TP the same time as a Sam who's 90% certain to spam Gekko, then hold off 2 seconds and follow it with Evis for darkness instead of spamming DE.
Likewise if you're on Sam with a Rng who you see's ready to WS soon when you have TP then use Yukikaze instead of Gekko incase they follow it up with a Slug. Yuki and Gekko are the same damage, there's no reason not to.