Magic: The Gathering

[Weltall]

Holy God at the guy opening multiple Beta, Alpha, Unlimited, and AR boosters and sealed boxes on Youtube.....

"Lets see...I could trade this booster box for a Skyline GTR OR I could open a ChaosLace....OPENING!"

He did get a Ruby and Time Twister on some of the first pulls though....

[Xerlic]

Videos

You know that saying that a car loses value the second you drive it off of the lot? This guy does that in every single video.

[Correction]

Videos

You know that saying that a car loses value the second you drive it off of the lot? This guy does that in every single video.

it's like watching guys who sledgehammer electronics on black friday in front of a crowd of people.

If nothing else this guy's videos has convinced me to leave my sealed urza's block boosters where they are

[Weltall]

Its not even like he opened 1-2 packs...he opened multiple BOXES....zomg

[AlexRuzhyo]

The MTG Panel at SDCC begins in 10 minutes. It isn't streamed, but all announcements will be covered on their twitter account!

https://twitter.com/wizards_magic


Supposed to hear stuff about the new FTV, DD, Commander 2014, and some KTK stuff.

[Jakson]

Right, so after a friend pulls an "In Garruk's Wake" we started talking about Garruk, Apex Predator and how planeswalkers are targeted.

For example, although you can't target a planeswalker with Shock, you can target your opponent with Shock, and then as Shock resolves, choose to have Shock deal its 2 damage to one of your opponent's planeswalkers. If you do, two loyalty counters are removed from that planeswalker.

Why can't you target a Planeswalker with Shock? What I've been trying to figure out is, whenever something uses "target," is it always routed, so to speak, through the PWs controlling player - the spell targets the player but the effect is applied to the PW; in the case of Garruk's +1 "Destroy target Planeswalker," is it that ability targeting the PWs controlling player and the effect is applied to the PW, or does it completely ignore the player all together?

I ask because of cards like Aegis of the Gods means that since the player is hexproof, he/she can't be targeted and the effect of the spell can't be applied to the PW.

Also, anybody watching the event in Portland?
http://www.twitch.tv/magic

[BaneTheBrawler]

yes, i think "destroy target planeswalker." ignores the player entirely, much like targeting creatures. You can't target planeswalkers directly with shock because they aren't players or creatures. The redirect mechanism allows you to do non-combat damage to them without wizards having to reprint cards.

[GoggleHead]

Everything involving planeswalkers seems to be kludgy as fuck.

As I understand it when they first came out any burn spells that targeted players could just be targeted at planeswalkers as though they were players too, which made sense. But then they changed it because "oh noes, what if players play Mind Rot and target planeswalkers, derpderpderp..."
It's a fucking mess.

Anything that can target a player can target a planeswalker. Done. Fixed. I don't know why they decided to fuck up such a simple solution so goddamn hard.

[Urza!]

It works that way because they wanted to be sure burn spells could damage PWs without having to say "Target Plansewalker", or having to errata (which they hate doing) all previously existing burn spells to be worded this way. I stopped playing for a while shortly a after Lorwyn, but I don't remember the targeting rules for burn spells being different than they are now. I could totally be wrong though.

[Jakson]

Any of you have maybe something I could search for, somebody's name or a rule index number? Because all the rules relating to targeting and Planeswalkers I can find doesn't really address the issue.

Also, any of you ever sold high priced singles? If so, where? I bought a M15 Fat Pack and pulled a Nissa, an Urborg, and a Soul of Theros, and I'm thinking about offing the Nissa and Urborg cards. I'm a bit worried about ebay/paypal because it can so frequently fuck over sellers, and LGSs here will give me 50%-60% of what is listed on ebay.

[Urza!]

If you want anything close to retail prices you will have to use eBay or a similar service, or arrange a sale/trade with someone in person. Larger online sites like starcitygames and channelfireball offer better buy list prices when you accept store credit over cash (some brick and mortar shops will as well), but yeah selling cards is a bit depressing when you look at what they are "worth" vs what a store will offer you.

[Jakson]

Thx. I might see go to my LGS (I like the guy that runs it, seems genuine, not some old jaded player) and see if he'll give me more than 16 in trade, or I'll go with Channel Fireball. It's funny that you mention that, the tourny in Portland has a few CF guys and it didn't occur to me to look them up.

[Xerlic]

Any of you have maybe something I could search for, somebody's name or a rule index number? Because all the rules relating to targeting and Planeswalkers I can find doesn't really address the issue.

You want rule 306.7. To answer your original question, if your opponent has hexproof, then you cannot redirect damage to the PW since you cannot legally target your opponent with shock.

http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Planeswalkers

Also, there are burn spells that specifically target planeswalkers.

[Jakson]

Yeah, I've seen that, but it specifies damage; I was asking because it isn't always damage that the card might say. Hero's Downfall has "target creature or planeswalker," which was brought up in the original argument. If you have to redirect damage to a planeswalker from spells that don't directly mention planeswalkers, then about a rule or ruling that says something like "we did this so that planeswalkers can targeted by spells that can target players" might also mean that all spells that are meant to target players can be applied to planeswalkers, or if it is only direct damaging spells such as Shock. I think I'm just looking for clarification between "Any spell (including spells like Hero's Downfall) that has an effect you want to apply to a planeswalker always targets its controller, and the effect (be it damage, "destroy," etc.) is then applied to the planeswalker" and "Unless the spell indicates that its effect is applied to a planeswalker directly by using the word 'target,' assume that all spells you want to apply to a planeswalker always targets its controller, provided the spells can target a player, and the effect (be it damage, "destroy," etc.) is then applied to the planeswalker." This also might clarify why nobody does (or can't) do things like player enchantments on planeswalkers - the rules don't make any restriction on what, exactly, you can apply to a planeswalker, but kind of offhand mention, in 306.7, that spells that can target players can, essentially, treat planeswalkers as player. Where does that treatment of planeswalkers as players end, what section of the rules state this, and why, since planeswalkers have been around for several years now, has WotC not been including planeswalkers on the cards on who/what a spell can target?

[AlexRuzhyo]

Any of you have maybe something I could search for, somebody's name or a rule index number? Because all the rules relating to targeting and Planeswalkers I can find doesn't really address the issue.

Also, any of you ever sold high priced singles? If so, where? I bought a M15 Fat Pack and pulled a Nissa, an Urborg, and a Soul of Theros, and I'm thinking about offing the Nissa and Urborg cards. I'm a bit worried about ebay/paypal because it can so frequently fuck over sellers, and LGSs here will give me 50%-60% of what is listed on ebay.

I do a ton of online trading on Pojo and MTG Salvation; I've sold cards for a little below TCG player shops.

But yeah, going to an LGS for credit or selling locally works as well; there's a guy at my LGS who pays cash for what the shop would give in credit. It's kind of scummy but you could probably sell under-priced there pretty quick.

[Chrius]

There are so many reasons an 'easy' solution isn't so easy. They don't have children writing these rules.
Say I have hexproof. Well now my PW essentially has hexproof from Shock, but not Hero's Downfall. Also, if I (the player) have an effect that says prevent the next 2 damage dealt to you, that gets applied before the redirect making shock deal no damage. But now there's a burn card that directly targets the PW, bypassing both of those systems
MTG is a game of abiding by the rules and breaking the rules (per the card text) and this system affords a wide variety of tactics to take, both offensively and defensively.
Combat damage is only different because they wanted to give the defending player the knowledge of where damage is going so they can block / combat trick appropriately.
Fun fact: you don't need to announce your intentions to redirect damage until the spell is resolving and all opportunities to respond have been passed

[Chrius]

If you have to redirect damage to a planeswalker from spells that don't directly mention planeswalkers, then about a rule or ruling that says something like "we did this so that planeswalkers can targeted by spells that can target players" might also mean that all spells that are meant to target players can be applied to planeswalkers, or if it is only direct damaging spells such as Shock. I think I'm just looking for clarification between "Any spell (including spells like Hero's Downfall) that has an effect you want to apply to a planeswalker always targets its controller, and the effect (be it damage, "destroy," etc.) is then applied to the planeswalker" and "Unless the spell indicates that its effect is applied to a planeswalker directly by using the word 'target,' assume that all spells you want to apply to a planeswalker always targets its controller, provided the spells can target a player, and the effect (be it damage, "destroy," etc.) is then applied to the planeswalker." This also might clarify why nobody does (or can't) do things like player enchantments on planeswalkers - the rules don't make any restriction on what, exactly, you can apply to a planeswalker, but kind of offhand mention, in 306.7, that spells that can target players can, essentially, treat planeswalkers as player. Where does that treatment of planeswalkers as players end, what section of the rules state this, and why, since planeswalkers have been around for several years now, has WotC not been including planeswalkers on the cards on who/what a spell can target?

Abide by the text on the card. Shock doesn't mention anything about targeting a PW. You can target a creature or player. There happens to be a rule where damage from spells and abilities can be redirected to the PW. Hero's downfall specifically allows targeting a PW, you don't target the player at all with it, because it doesn't instruct you to target a player. PW's are also permanents, so if you had something that says destroy target non land permanent, you could target the PW and it would be destroyed, player not involved.

[Xerlic]

Don't think of a planeswalker as a player. A planeswalker is a permanent with card type planeswalker that happens to have specific rules regarding burn. Like Chrius said, you can't hero's downfall a player. You also cannot Thoughtseize a planeswalker.

[Moridam]

question about archive trap/searches: does the alt cost trigger whenever any search of an opponent's library is conducted, or only when the opponent initiates the search? the card text leads me to believe it's the latter, but i've read a lot of discussions where people mention you can force it using cards like haunting echoes/extirpate/quash/etc., which are typically worded in a way that suggests the caster is conducting the search, and not the opponent. i checked the gatherer rulings and didn't see anything that clarifies it, perhaps someone here could point me in the right direction?

[Xerlic]

No.

Archive Trap's alternate cost doesn't trigger of those types of cards unless they cast it on themselves. Stuff like Surgical Extraction, Extirpate etc specifically say that "you" aka the controller of the spell searches the target's library. So if you cast Extirpate on an opponent's card, you are the one that is supposed to search their deck. Not the opponent. Therefore, the opponent isn't searching their library.