Oh Texas... (72 year old ninja subdued)

[Mizango]

Well played dawg, well played.

[Kuya]

Where is your graph on how many police are killing by cars during traffic stops? Fuck running around near oncoming traffic after some dumbfuck that might be insane. You would have to be crazy/White to talk to a Cop like that.

What?

[jmc]

What?

...... there is like a cop a week killed by a car, while he/she is on a traffic stop. Just watch AMW, and they always announce one death of a officer/trooper weekly mostly due to cars hitting them while on traffic stops.

[Eticket]

but hey at least they weren't tazing someone so it's cool eh?

[Kuya]

...... there is like a cop a week killed by a car, while he/she is on a traffic stop. Just watch AMW, and they always announce one death of a officer/trooper weekly mostly due to cars hitting them while on traffic stops.

Right. Did you read what i said? Let's go over this again. I already posted info on tasers. The least you guys could do is post information on these sorts of accidents caused by cops having to physically overpower people instead of using tasers or the like. As i mentioned before, i'm asking for information on how often it happens and when it can be attributed to the claims you guys are making.

Would you kindly find me this information so we can actually have a decent argument? What is AMW by the way?

The least you guys could do is step up your game.

edit: seriously, no more bullshit. Seeing as how the side that is arguing that tasers need more restrictions has already had reputable information with sources used to back up its claim. The other side(s) should do the same.

[Darus Grey]

...... there is like a cop a week killed by a car, while he/she is on a traffic stop. Just watch AMW, and they always announce one death of a officer/trooper weekly mostly due to cars hitting them while on traffic stops.

Well, in that case we can guess 52~ deaths a year.

Less than the amount killed by tasers yearly. By the logic presented in this thread, since the number of officers who die in car hits at traffic stops is less than taser deaths per year, it is there-by irrelivent to all discussion.

[jmc]

Well, in that case we can guess 52~ deaths a year.

Less than the amount killed by tasers yearly. By the logic presented in this thread, since the number of officers who die in car hits at traffic stops is less than taser deaths per year, it is there-by irrelivent to all discussion.

However, no one posts any facts of actual deaths.

There are too many variable to claim that someone recieves a taser shock, and dies shortly after means that the taser/officer is 100% at fault. Too many things that could kill the individual.

-Narcotics?
-Prior Heart Issues?
-Impact on the ground? (Hits head after taser shock, disables muscles)
-Actual taser shock, killing individual?

This all reminds me of the kid here in boston who died after the celtics won the NBA championship. He had a prior heart condition, fought with police...resisted arrest....cops arrested him, then he goes into cardiac arrest and dies. Yet, people wanted to hold the officers accountable.


*edit*

I'm not trying to say tasers didn't have anything to do in the deaths of the 400 people in the last 7 years. Just saying they are not purely to blame, and unless autopsy results were released for every individual who has died after being subdued by a taser..... then we will truly never know.


Also, AMW = America's Most Wanted

[Eticket]

Exactly. The problem with Kuya's report is it just glosses over the other mitigating factors that may have contributed to deaths. As I stated before, the report on Truth Not Tasers, which is a biased site to begin with, still makes mention of drugs being involved with 13 of the 27 taser related deaths they cited in Canada.

Yes, they are dangerous.

Yes, they are overused.

Should they never be used? No.

Should it have been used in this situation? In my opinion? Yes.

People are just grabbing onto one of the many variables involved in this particular case (her age) and using it as a soapbox for the larger issue.

[Brill Weave]

While I'm all for debating the topic seriously Kuya, as jmc pointed out there are too many factors that are left up in the air. It is nearly impossible to say how many of these cases that Amnesty International are using are tainted by extenuating circumstances. Their own statistics show that the tazers are not themselves as dangerous as you're making them out to be. Just a quote that you may have a little interest in.

Many of those who died had underlying health problems, such as heart conditions or mental illness, or were under the influence of drugs.

That's taken from here.
USA: Amnesty International's continuing concerns about Taser use

[Kuya]

However, no one posts any facts of actual deaths.

There are too many variable to claim that someone recieves a taser shock, and dies shortly after means that the taser/officer is 100% at fault. Too many things that could kill the individual.

-Narcotics?
-Prior Heart Issues?
-Impact on the ground? (Hits head after taser shock, disables muscles)
-Actual taser shock, killing individual?

This all reminds me of the kid here in boston who died after the celtics won the NBA championship. He had a prior heart condition, fought with police...resisted arrest....cops arrested him, then he goes into cardiac arrest and dies. Yet, people wanted to hold the officers accountable.

This is actually gone into in detail ( and i mean DETAIL in the link i posted). For the love of god people, PLEASE READ IT.

Amnesty International acknowledges that coroners have usually attributed cause of death to factors unrelated to Taser use, such as drug intoxication or heart disease. However, some medical experts believe Taser shocks may exacerbate a risk of heart failure in cases where people are agitated or under the influence of drugs or have underlying health problems. In at least five recent cases, coroners have found the Taser contributed to the deaths (see below). The rising death toll heightens Amnesty International's concern about the safety of such weapons and the lack of rigorous, independent testing of their medical effects. While there have been some limited studies of earlier stun weapons, there has been no peer-reviewed medical literature published on the medical effects of the new more potent M26 or X26 Advanced Tasers deployed in the cases described in this report.

These concerns are supported by the fact that, in five cases (James Borden, William Lomax, William Teaseley, Jacob Lair and Keith Tucker), medical examiners found that the Taser had directly contributed to the deaths, along with other factors, including heart disease, restraint and/or drug intoxication. In another case (Gordon Randall Jones), a coroner is cited as stating he believed the Taser played a role in the death. The short time lapse between Taser use and cardiac or respiratory arrest in some cases also raises issues of concern, and in one case (Alvarado) the coroner noted a temporal link between the Taser and cardiac arrest and said he was unable to exclude the Taser use as a possible cause. In another case (Clever Craig), the coroner also may have indicated a link with the Taser given his autopsy finding of cause of death to be: "cardiac dysthythmia during an episode of excited delirium following electrical shock". In several cases death was given simply as "sudden cardiac arrest", with no clear underlying causes (see, for example, the case of Frederick Jerome Williams, below and also the case of Richard Baralla, under 2.6). These cases also raise questions as to whether the Taser may have been a factor. A chart attached as Appendix A lists the 74 cases, giving (where information was available) cause of death; contributory factors cited in coroners' reports; number of Taser discharge cycles; time lapse between Taser shock and cardiac or respiratory arrest.

Dr Sidsel Rogde, an independent forensic pathologist who reviewed 16 autopsies for Amnesty International, also raised concern about a possible link between the Taser and deaths, giving her opinion that it could not be ruled out as a contributory factor in at least seven cases.(114)(It should be noted that the autopsy reports were not available to Amnesty International in three other cases where coroners reportedly found the Taser played a role in the deaths – William Lomax, William Teaseley and Jacob Lair – so these cases were not included in Dr Rogde's findings.). Dr Rogde also questioned the findings relating to drug toxicity in some autopsies, noting that high blood concentrations post mortem may reflect a redistribution of blood during, for example, resuscitation, and do not necessarily reflect toxic levels of drug concentration before death. There were also several cases in which death was attributed in the autopsy report to drug intoxication where the drug levels were not necessarily fatal. Dr Rogde stated: "In my opinion, death can be attributed to drug overdose only when other causes are excluded". Dr Rogde's comments are included in some of the individual case summaries, below.

Saying that the tasers weren't the direct cause of death is a dodge if they can be found to have contributed to the death.

[Kuya]

Exactly. The problem with Kuya's report is it just glosses over the other mitigating factors that may have contributed to deaths.

Actually, it doesn't. The guy bellow you even quoted a small part of it.

While I'm all for debating the topic seriously Kuya, as jmc pointed out there are too many factors that are left up in the air. It is nearly impossible to say how many of these cases that Amnesty International are using are tainted by extenuating circumstances.

If your argument is that we can't know, then the argument itself ends there for you, as you then can't argue that it isn't a factor or a cause. Meanwhile, the issue where disparate rules on taser use, even while tasers are suggested for individuals who pose a threat, but are instead used for the least threatening of cases poses a problem of unnecessary risk.

[Khamsin]

All this talk about non-threatening individuals, but what if they are threatening? The old lady might have been talking all kinds of shit to the officer, making all sorts of threats. Once you make a threat like "take the cuffs, straight jacket, and leg shackles off and say that to me again, young man!", you are no longer considered non-threatening.

As for taser deaths due to drug related heart conditions, its probably something they hadn't counted on. Afterall, they shouldn't be doing drugs in the first place, so its an easy factor to have overlooked.

[jmc]

I have read it, thats why I said they would have to release the results for all 400+ people killed to be viable in my opinion.

I'm not for tasers, nor am I against them (again, we dont use them in boston)


Just kinda sick of watching new reports, saying that someone was killed by a taser.

I'm sorry, but if you have a prior history of heart disease......... and you decided to fight with a police officer that has a taser (its big, its yellow... you cannot miss it) then best of luck to that person.


Yet, if you get the rare chance of getting a pissed off cop/trooper who taser's someone who does not deserve it and dies.... its a sad situation, and I expect the officer to get punished.

[Correction]

Fucking with an armed cop can get you killed? GEDDOUDAHERE.

[Kuya]

All this talk about non-threatening individuals, but what if they are threatening? The old lady might have been talking all kinds of shit to the officer, making all sorts of threats. Once you make a threat like "take the cuffs, straight jacket, and leg shackles off and say that to me again, young man!", you are no longer considered non-threatening.

The distinction has already been made in a previous post. Look it up.

As for taser deaths due to drug related heart conditions, its probably something they hadn't counted on. Afterall, they shouldn't be doing drugs in the first place, so its an easy factor to have overlooked.

What the person does wrong does not exempt the casual use of tasers.

I'm sorry, but if you have a prior history of heart disease......... and you decided to fight with a police officer that has a taser (its big, its yellow... you cannot miss it) then best of luck to that person.

And this is on par with saying someone deserves the chance of death. It doesn't matter, again, whether you think they deserve it or not. You already know this, but let me remind you. As representatives of the state, officers have a responsability that other people who aren't officers don't. They are placed in a position of power and hence it is necessary to establish rules to avoid any unncessary loss of life. The person may or may not have their safety in mind, but the officer has to. Why in the world would this "people who are a threat to others and themselves" even be part of the phrase used when denoting proper targets if the officers weren't supposed to consider the safety of the people they are dealing with? Let's not get absurd here.

And i don't want to hear flippant bullshit like "if you don't want to get killed, don't fuck with cops". That's not what they are there for. They are not there to punish, but uphold the laws. You want cops ordered to punish people? Go live in Saudi Arabia.

[Correction]

Let's replace Tasers with authoritative use of the words 'or else'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHoSREV3bos

[Day]

Why have tasers at all, just use guns if we want to follow some of the logic being used here. Resist arrest? Blow their brains out.

[jmc]

Kuya,

I cannot personally speak on behalf of a officer who wields a taser, but I believe the use of them varies from department to department.

As far as I know (please, help me out on this one) but there are no federal guideline's on use of non-lethal items for police departments. Just the department rules/regulations/policy, and that's the only thing to fall back on..... which can vary from various towns.

its kinda like here in MA..... if I had a suicide bomber, with a bomb strapped to his chest. What can a officer in MA do? According to Federal standards.... ATF, homeland security the officer is warranted to shoot to kill via headshot. However, MA law claims officers cannot do that and said officer could be brought up on homicide charges.

The laws in most states counter federal laws......... and its just a mess.

[Kuya]

Kuya,

I cannot personally speak on behalf of a officer who wields a taser, but I believe the use of them varies from department to department.

As far as I know (please, help me out on this one) but there are no federal guideline's on use of non-lethal items for police departments. Just the department rules/regulations/policy, and that's the only thing to fall back on..... which can vary from various towns.

its kinda like here in MA..... if I had a suicide bomber, with a bomb strapped to his chest. What can a officer in MA do? According to Federal standards.... ATF, homeland security the officer is warranted to shoot to kill via headshot. However, MA law claims officers cannot do that and said officer could be brought up on homicide charges.

The laws in most states counter federal laws......... and its just a mess.

Yes, i realize that the rules are all over the place even if tasers themselves seem to be dubious enough to put into question the whole "non-lethal" category. In fact, in some states, the regulations for taser use contradict international policy on the use of force. Which is why i agree with AI on at least a moratorium on taser use until more rigorous research can be done on how dangerous they can be. And i believe it would be better to create standard rules on taser use for all police departments seeing as how tasers have even been used on children and pregnant women.

[Brill Weave]

They are placed in a position of power and hence it is necessary to establish rules to avoid any unncessary loss of life.

Including their own Kuya. We can do this dance all week long. Was she a threat or wasn't she? Does the perceived possibility of danger translate to serious real danger? There's no clear cut answer that is going to satisfy both of us. And both of us can twist statements and numbers to reinforce our own viewpoints. So rather than sit here and go back and forth for the next few hours(which would mean I would be posting during the Penguins game) I will end my part of this thread with the following. I understand your point and disagree with it as I'm sure your thoughts will be reciprocal in that regard.

Plus I'm leaving work and have to go to the gym, the store for munchies, the beer distributor, and over to my mother's to cut the grass. All before people start getting to my house. Which is at about seven this evening. So I love ya Kuya but I can't devote the time to getting all my ducks in a row on this one(at least not tonight.) And to be blunt I would be hesitant to continue the conversation without verifying my own information.