First time in Salvage

[FailureMidgard]

Thank you for your continued advice.

I have been doing some shout runs (just to build experience in the zones) while we finish up nyzul and get a couple of guys to SL for RvB.

I think we will be starting 'in anger' in about a month.

It looks like the group will be something like (first job is the one they are likely to go on):
1. RDM, BLM
2. SAM, DRK, NIN, RNG
3. THF, NIN, BST
4. BRD, WHM, RDM, SMN,
5. COR, PUP
6. BLM, DRG, BLU, RDM,

+ a few more unconfirmed (need some MNKs ideally)

any comments on that?

I'd personally put #6 on dragoon. Angon is amazing for all sorts of things, and I've never been a fan of BLMs in salvage. If you make that change, your group will look very similar to mine. You do -not- need a monk. You can do every zone perfectly fine (and just as successfully as a group with a monk) with 0 monks. Monks aren't bad, but they haven't been important in salvage since the starting chest was added.

[Damane]

-P1-
MNK x2
BRD
THF
WHM
RDM
------
-P2-
BLM

First off all, the PT setup looks standard and very solid and should be able after getting experience in salvage to do everything in salvage.

I would suggest that your bard should get a storm fife. +5 MP ballad is very helpfull especially on the earlier floors, where you dont have max MP max HP or ability cells for convert. It helps a ton and speeds up things.

Time for the wall of questions:

*How far could the above group get?
You can and will be able to do everything with that group, dependend on your skill

*How long should we spend at each rampart?
That depends on how many ramparts you want squeeze in, and if you want to do the boss. Generally, if you want to do more then 2 ramparts, 50% HP finish (IF there is no NM pop, once a NM pops before 50% mark it will most likely pop again 2-3 times).
If you go also for the boss I would suggest 2 ramparts only, the 2. beeing the floor 4 rampart.

*Do we seriously stand a chance against the boss on our first time (if we skip some of the ramparts to give us more time)?
Probably not, but you can try and learn.

*What would you change in the group?
Storm Fife for your Brd.

*If we had more people, what jobs would you add to the list?
I would only go with a maximum number of 9 people into salvage (for zhayolm remnants even 7 are a bit too much). I would prolyl add 2 additional melees, because healing with storm fife ballad etc. is not hard.

*Would you recommend trying the Socket NM (if so, what cell?)
Socket NM in Bhaflau remnants is pritty much useless, you will realy get enough cells. trust me

*What how much HP does the gear on 3F have? Would ES Thunderga III take off 5%?
if unlucky on resist no, 3% is a safer bet, but I would just pull both melee one down to 5% sleep it, engage the other, safe TP, kill the one and immidiatelly engage onto the 5% with full TP WSing it to death, this is quick enough in the time frame, to count as simoultanous death.


As a starter group you should take it easy and learn for the beginning, once you got enough knowledge start to fasten things up. BRD puller in salvage helps to save alot of time and lets you do things like: SSR usu head ---> morri legs ---> ares legs ----> usu body ----> boss. Just as an example. However the brd does have to know the route and how to pull what and when.
Skype or Teamspeak is a timesafer on salvage too.

But for now take it easy and learn the zones and NM pops.^^

[Valyana]

Use the dot and make sure the mages know that if they don't get charmed they will need to kite. This is really only a problem in floor 5 room since it's so small and getting the 30 away to interrupt the frog's casting can be hard.

It's easier if you Bind the madame.

[Fiendishone]

I would have to disagree on 3. Your relying on a mage standing between 20 and 21.5 (to cast on the mob) and not get charmed. If the mob or they move and get charmed w/ everyone else, you're screwed cause the mob will regen. Use the dot and make sure the mages know that if they don't get charmed they will need to kite. This is really only a problem in floor 5 room since it's so small and getting the 30 away to interrupt the frog's casting can be hard.

See whenever we do Zhaylom we bring a BRD & BLM. Again don't DOT it cuz it CAN be slept (cept on darksday). If a chorus goes off, BLM sleeps frog, BRD lullabys charmed ppl. Works great every time. PLUS the BLM can spam sleeps and it works as a form of stun on TP moves. I can't count the number of times we've actually had 2 BLMS (cuz enough ppl show up for the run) and they rotate spam sleep and not ONE single chorus gets off, leaving the DD's to unload TP for damage, rather then save for stun WS's.

[TybudX]

MNK
SAM
BRD
COR
WHM
RDM

We knew we would never kill him in time (and doubted we could ever kill him with 6 ppl and only 2 DD). So we just charged him just to try it.

The AOE TP moves were pretty harsh, and without any stuns i think we would have run our of MP before the boss ran out of HP (given more time). I think if we could get to the boss quicker; with 6 it would be difficult.

We timed out ~85-90% on the boss.

Don't equate more people to faster boss kills, it's usually the exact opposite. The limiting factor of Salvage bosses is the amount of MP your mages have for healing. To that end, less TP = easier kills.

A good thing to do would be to practice on other Chariot mobs. They all have similar behaviour and share two TP moves, Discharge (Paralyga, wipes shadows), and Inertia Stream (AoE damage, Bind). Because of this, they are very predictable, and the method of tanking them changes very little from one to the other.

You're going to want similar buffs for each boss. Haste, Auspice, double March (I prefer this for pretty much anybody, and always when under Soul Voice) or March/Minuet (hopefully you don't need March/Mad), Chaos Roll, Monk's Roll, DDs buff up. Once the fight starts, you will want two melee on in order to restrict TP. BLM can do nukes, but needs to hold off until after Stun on a TP move. COR is awesome with Quick Draw, seeing as how it does not give any TP to a mob. THF can go in and use SA and TA when they are ready. Basically, any 'extra' jobs you have along can go in and do what they do, as long as they wait until after a TP move. Getting caught in an Inertia Stream will make things difficult on mages who should be focused on the two tanks.

Now, understand that debuffing Chariots properly is the difference between apeshit bear and tranquilized college girl. The group you took in had lots of backline support, so something along the lines of Chi Blast (Penance MNK) -> Elegy -> Slow II -> Earth Shot* -> Dia II/III -> Light Shot -> Paralyze II, in that order. I hate when mages put up Paralyze first, it only matters if you get a lucky proc on the next action the mob takes. Slow (I/II), on the other hand, immediately alleviates pressure on the tank(s).

Now that you are engaged, have your tanks stand opposite each other, to the sides (or even slightly in front, just not right in front) of the Chariot. The opening of the fight is a good time to use 2 hours like Hundred Fists, Meikyo, or Mighty Strikes, which will help solidify hate early on. Just make sure that they know that they are tanking first and foremost... keeping shadows or 3rd Eye up is more important than epeen. Nobody cares how much damage you do to the mob when you lose.

As for how to tank a Chariot, it's pretty simple. Again, you can practice this on any Chariot, and your group will look like pros when they do Salvage bosses. You pretty much just want Haste and double March. You tank regular hits with Ni... they aren't always easy to discern, and all the action can make it more difficult, but if you count your shadows, and watch the symbol to disappear, then start casting. The difference between the mobs debuffs (Slow, Elegy) and the tank's buffs (Haste, March) make it possible to Ni tank an entire fight, and it only gets easier the more of each is applied. The tricky part then is those TP moves, which wipe shadows. This is where Ichi comes in. Keeping an eye on the chatlog, as soon as you see Discharge/Inertia Stream/boss-specific-move (not Brainjack! make a macro to swap to a super-gimpy weapon for this), start casting Ichi. Even if you get hit with Paralyze, your spell will still go off, leaving you with a fresh set of shadows while the mages remove status effects and top you off.

That's another thing that will greatly increase effectiveness... assigning each mage to a tank. Nothing sucks more than Discharge -> Mage 1 starts casting Paralyna on Tank 1 -> Mage 2 starts casting Paralyna on Tank 1 -> Tank 2 bites it -> runs falls apart. You have the same two spells to worry about from any given Chariot, Paralyna (Discharge) and Erase (Inertia Stream). With the crazy amount of buffing, debuffing, TP hampering, and etc. that you will find yourself applying during your runs, you'll start to find that the mages spend less MP healing when they can quickly... and I mean fast!... remove status effects. When I backline I will camp the chat log, and time out my spell like a Stun, except I want to be just a little bit too late.

So what is all this going to learn you? Well for one thing, you're going to laugh when you get Chariots in Nyzul Isle. For another, you'll start to notice just how structured and predictable Chariots are... they only have 3 TP moves (there's Diffusion Ray, which does not wipe shadows, and has it's damage reduced by not standing directly in front of the Chariot) plus a special, boss specific TP move. It's that special TP move that you have to worry about, and there are tricks to avoiding them and/or ways to reducing how nasty they are, both before and during the fights. As an example, Homing Missiles can be avoided by having your tanks quickly reposition when the Chariot turns to face them.

I think that's pretty much it. There's little things that will change depending on which boss you are fighting, or what jobs you use to tank them. You don't need /nin, but I recommend that you use it at first, as it's a familiar way to tank. Just remember to keep buffs up on the tanks at all times, and make sure the boss is always debuffed, and the fights become very easy.

* I'm not certain if Quick Draw has any added benefit on tier II Slow/Paralyze, but wth... worse case scenario, the mob turns to move towards your COR for a second. This can buy a few more seconds to debuff the mob, saving extra shadows for your tanks.

[detlef]

These are all very well-equipped players with black belts, assassin's armlets, most salvage pieces, blah blah blah, but we recently lost our Gjallahorn BRD when he got full Marduk. :<

You mean we had some well-equipped players and one Pahluwan body MNK.

Also, the nerve of that guy, what a bastard.

[Wolfknight]

I'd personally put #6 on dragoon. Angon is amazing for all sorts of things, and I've never been a fan of BLMs in salvage. If you make that change, your group will look very similar to mine. You do -not- need a monk. You can do every zone perfectly fine (and just as successfully as a group with a monk) with 0 monks. Monks aren't bad, but they haven't been important in salvage since the starting chest was added.

I have to agree, angon is amazing in salvage, on NMs it can shave a good bit of time off, and for boss, it's very noticeably how much it increases the other DD's dmg thus hate on the boss. And also yea mnk isn't needed, but it's not bad either and penace is nice for some stuff.

[Limlight]

its all preference really. I have one of the most kick ass monks period as my "main tank" another has spharai and our whm literally gets bored when he can come. mnk + sam combo is just killer. They do nothing but spam darkness (unless sek is up etc), our third dd is usually a war/sam with a penta build for gears and of course the usual KJ build for everything else. We have a gungir drg in the shell but his schedule is screwy. Wish he could come. All wolf does is praise drg in salvage and i'd die to see rhealana in action.

back on point, the constant barrage of SC's just rapes everything. I love it. Our sam usually subs drg to equal out hate (but still the mnk does 60+% of the tanking). especially on bosses CS tanking is mucho nice for our whm's mp pool. And yea the spharai mnk has around a 85% or so counter rate = sex lol. Again its all preference not saying omg one's better than the other.

edit: equally a drg and sam can spam sc as well, just hard to get a damage reduction set on drg, /mage can equal it out but some of those tp moves are horrible with no shadows (mortal rev....../shiver)

[miokomioko]

You mean we had some well-equipped players and one Pahluwan body MNK.

Also, the nerve of that guy, what a bastard.

I got Haramaki like... 1 week after that ridiculous argument with Neosutra.

[Pataki]

2 mnks, brd, thf, whm, rdm, is perfect, you can do everything in salvage like that, if you have more coming sams are good for sc spam, but if your good enough you dont need the sc to power through zones, but with the basic 6 man setup after getting experience you will be clearing all nm's and bosses in zones easy. and you will not stress about getting cells in arra with only 6.

[Valyana]

2 DD BRD THF Healer 6th is what you want. Healer can be WHM or RDM. 6th can be another DD, another Healer, COR, BRD, DNC, SCH, RNG, BLM, whatever.

MNK is good, DRG is good, but you should just bring the strongest DDs you have available, whatever their job. Don't tell your Apocalypse DRK to come on MNK just because they have it at 75.