Is there a reason you cant sell coins on AH?

[Spider-Dan]

Dynamis San d'Oria can be extremely profitable with small man groups of 6-12 people but again, most players are too lazy/retarded to do it and thats why you don't have 50 people gathered around markings at any given time (there are a number of low man groups but nowhere close to what you would expect given the potential a lowman group has).

Double the price of currency and you WILL see people low-manning city Dynamis strictly for profit. Glasses are too cheap for this not to happen.

[GeneJackit]

I think it would be great to be able to sell coins on AH for two reasons:

1) I am never going to be concerned about upgrading a relic...so if the market fluctuates I can buy low and sell high

2) (most importantly) No matter what happens to be the final outcome, it would throw a monkey wrench in the system...and in the end, wouldn't that be a lot of fun?


EDIT: Question, the focus has been on Dyna currency, but would the same scenario be true if ABCs and Alex were sold on AH? I can't prove it, but demand seems to be somewhat lower on those too...but that is just my own passive observation

[Absolutely Virtue]

As for AH camping: economics cat says hi. If people are camping the AH and buying every single coin as soon as it goes on the AH, wouldn't that mean that demand would outstrip supply? Quick, how does a free-market economy compensate for demand that greatly exceeds supply?

While you obviously got an A in your Intro to Econ class this semester, I'd like to give you a headstart on Econ 301 in the fall.

You're talking about free markets as if the playing field here is level. It is not. The price will rise to what the 'true' price should be. But a certain group of buyers (i.e, not bots) will be at a continuous disadvantage. If the price rises from 15k to 16k as demand outpaces supply, the bots will adjust and buy at 16k. You'll never get your foot in the door, because each time the price ticks up, the bots will adjust and you'll never stand a chance. The only way you will be able to get currency is to pay more than the going rate. The fact that your market explanation sounds so good in theory, but fails so poorly in practice, is precisely the reason nobody outside of college campuses and Ayn Rand book clubs give it any credence. The real world is a bitch.

It is interesting to speculate about what would happen if Dynamis farming became a widespread phenomenon (like, say, farming tiger hides or crystals). But it's just that, speculation. Relic weapons are in such high demand that I'm guessing people will always do anything to get them. And that leads back to the only real economic principle you need to remember when you play FFXI:

If someone can figure out a way to fuck everyone else over to achieve their own personal gain, they will do so 100% of the time.

Keeping currency off the AH makes it infinitely more difficult to manipulate the market, thereby reducing the opportunities for fuckery.

[Yugl]

While you obviously got an A in your Intro to Econ class this semester, I'd like to give you a headstart on Econ 301 in the fall.

You're talking about free markets as if the playing field here is level. It is not. The price will rise to what the 'true' price should be. But a certain group of buyers (i.e, not bots) will be at a continuous disadvantage. If the price rises from 15k to 16k as demand outpaces supply, the bots will adjust and buy at 16k. You'll never get your foot in the door, because each time the price ticks up, the bots will adjust and you'll never stand a chance. The only way you will be able to get currency is to pay more than the going rate. The fact that your market explanation sounds so good in theory, but fails so poorly in practice, is precisely the reason nobody outside of college campuses and Ayn Rand book clubs give it any credence. The real world is a bitch.

Bingo. This is what I mentioned in my last post and has yet to be answered.

[Gergall]

If the price rises from 15k to 16k as demand outpaces supply, the bots will adjust and buy at 16k. You'll never get your foot in the door, because each time the price ticks up, the bots will adjust and you'll never stand a chance.

There is a huge flaw in your logic. If the bots never stop buying it all, (meaning that there is always at least one bot buying it all up instantly), the price will rise forever.

Maybe your argument is that at any given point in time, legit players can only buy the coins that are priced slightly higher than what the bots are bidding. For example, if there are bots bidding up to 16k, legit players can only buy the 17k+ coins.

In that case, you are right, but so what? This is true for every item on the AH ever. There are botters buying up all kinds of cheap synth materials (or so I imagine). The system still generally works.

[Yugl]

There is a huge flaw in your logic. If the bots never stop buying it all, (meaning that there is always at least one bot buying it all up instantly), the price will rise forever.

Maybe your argument is that at any given point in time, legit players can only buy the coins that are priced slightly higher than what the bots are bidding. For example, if there are bots bidding up to 16k, legit players can only buy the 17k+ coins.

In that case, you are right, but so what? This is true for every item on the AH ever. There are botters buying up all kinds of cheap synth materials (or so I imagine). The system still generally works.

It's a case because it would be no better than the current situation. It seems there are three issues facing relic upgraders besides gil. One is simply finding the currency. The AH system addresses this by coiling currency to one spot. Another is the amount of currency. Since the AH allows for greater price fluctuations and concentration of currency, it indirectly solves the problem at the cost of higher prices. Bots will simply buy out the cheapest currency, and the ones that remain will be those at higher prices. Finally, the price of currency due to resellers. The AH system only perpetuates this problem because it allows for a direct system in which they can control the prices on all currency without shouting or searching. This means those times where you were lucky enough to find cheap currency are no more.

Overall, the AH system only solves two problems while perpetuating one problem to an extreme. I don't care if they implement the AH system for coins, but if they do, these are the consequences you're likely to face.

[Spider-Dan]

You're talking about free markets as if the playing field here is level. It is not. The price will rise to what the 'true' price should be. But a certain group of buyers (i.e, not bots) will be at a continuous disadvantage. If the price rises from 15k to 16k as demand outpaces supply, the bots will adjust and buy at 16k. You'll never get your foot in the door, because each time the price ticks up, the bots will adjust and you'll never stand a chance. The only way you will be able to get currency is to pay more than the going rate.

You are acting like bots will magically have infinite money.

The ONLY THING that AH bots can do is buy what their owner would buy, but faster. Prices WILL rise until the bot owners say, "f*ck that, I'm not paying 10m for a jadeshell" or what have you. Seriously, if every 100 that's put on the AH is bought within 15 seconds of being listed, exactly how long do you think it will take before sellers figure out that they should price their currency ABOVE what the bots will pay and work their way down?

So as I said, the effect of AH bots on currency will essentially be nil (over time), because sellers will continually drive up the prices of currency until they reach a point where bots will no longer be useful. Bots will only serve to speed up the process of determining the real price point for currency. You probably should have paid more attention in your first-year econ class, because you don't seem to be able to grasp this extremely simple concept.

[Spider-Dan]

Finally, the price of currency due to resellers. The AH system only perpetuates this problem because it allows for a direct system in which they can control the prices on all currency without shouting or searching. This means those times where you were lucky enough to find cheap currency are no more.

So in other words, it would be no different than every other AHable item in the game.

You are making an argument against the AH as a concept. Your argument has nothing to do with currency in particular.

[Yugl]

So in other words, it would be no different than every other AHable item in the game.

You are making an argument against the AH as a concept. Your argument has nothing to do with currency in particular.

How do inflated prices stop botters?

Edit: Saying that it's no different from other AHable items in the game is completely false since most items don't have bot worthy value.

[Spider-Dan]

How do inflated prices stop botters?

Simple: when coins consistently disappear from the AH within seconds of being listed, sellers will jack up the prices. If they continue to disappear within seconds, prices will continue to go up, until they reach a point where no botter is willing to set his bot spending limit that high.

Once it has reached that point, either players will manually buy the inflated coins, or they won't and prices will drop. But either way, there won't be a concern about a lack of currency on the AH, because (at that price point) there will always be patient players listing coins for slightly above and impatient players listing coins for slightly below.

And the important thing to note is that everything I just said applies to buyers period and not just botters. AH bots are nothing more than buyers that buy really fast; the player-owners are still the ones setting the spending limits. AH bots are not a significant factor in the economy.

Edit: Saying that it's no different from other AHable items in the game is completely false since most items don't have bot worthy value.

Give me a definition of "bot-worthy value" and I'll respond to your point. As I see it, AH bots are primarily useful for camping items that rarely ever make their way on to the AH (like -1 cursed pieces), not as a method of controlling the supply of a frequently-listed item.

Outside of that, using an AH bot on a frequently-listed item will have exactly one result: you will quickly drive of the price of said item up to slightly above your bot's spending limit. Given that using a AH bot would generally mean that you want a great deal of this currency, drastic price increases are probably not in your best long-term interest.

[Yugl]

Simple: when coins consistently disappear from the AH within seconds of being listed, sellers will jack up the prices. If they continue to disappear within seconds, prices will continue to go up, until they reach a point where no botter is willing to set his bot spending limit that high.

Once it has reached that point, either players will manually buy the inflated coins, or they won't and prices will drop. But either way, there won't be a concern about a lack of currency on the AH, because (at that price point) there will always be patient players listing coins for slightly above and impatient players listing coins for slightly below.

And the important thing to note is that everything I just said applies to buyers period and not just botters. AH bots are nothing more than buyers that buy really fast; the player-owners are still the ones setting the spending limits. AH bots are not a significant factor in the economy.

I agree with your entire statement. However, at the end of this logic, we find that only expensive coins are left for the ones who buy items normally. Since the AH bots buy coins faster, the only time when people can buy coins is when the bot refuses to pay for them. Now that could be good in the sense that the cut-off price for botters is relatively cheap. It could also mean that they're willing to spend ridiculous amounts of gil up to a certain point where no one will buy the coins. When the price decreases, they'll be the first to buy the coins.

Give me a definition of "bot-worthy value" and I'll respond to your point. As I see it, AH bots are primarily useful for camping items that rarely ever make their way on to the AH (like -1 cursed pieces), not as a method of controlling the supply of a frequently-listed item.

Outside of that, using an AH bot on a frequently-listed item will have exactly one result: you will quickly drive of the price of said item up to slightly above your bot's spending limit. Given that using a AH bot would generally mean that you want a great deal of this currency, drastic price increases are probably not in your best long-term interest.

Bot worthy value simply means items that people bot. You suggested the coins would be no different than AHable items. My claim was that since it is a AHable item, and AHable items are different from bot worthy items, that coins are inherently different. If you agree with the premise, you agree with the conclusion. If not, then you have to assert that bot worthy items are no different than non-bot worthy AHable items.

[Spider-Dan]

I agree with your entire statement. However, at the end of this logic, we find that only expensive coins are left for the ones who buy items normally.

Under this scenario, the coins would be expensive for everyone. They would be slightly less expensive for the botter who instructs his bot to camp the AH for the
"cheap" coins; however, the consequence of this behavior is that the botter would get coins much less frequently than normal buyers.

And again, I think it's necessary to point out that these exact circumstances already apply to almost every item currently on the AH. You can camp/bot the Ah for elemental ores at <= 50k, but it means that you'll be sitting around for a while before you get them.

Since the AH bots buy coins faster, the only time when people can buy coins is when the bot refuses to pay for them. Now that could be good in the sense that the cut-off price for botters is relatively cheap. It could also mean that they're willing to spend ridiculous amounts of gil up to a certain point where no one will buy the coins. When the price decreases, they'll be the first to buy the coins.

So as I said, this means that the price will stabilize at a point where the coins are not being snatched off the AH within seconds of their listing. I see nothing inherently wrong with this.

Bot worthy value simply means items that people bot. You suggested the coins would be no different than AHable items. My claim was that since it is a AHable item, and AHable items are different from bot worthy items, that coins are inherently different.

Are you saying that AHable items are necessarily not bot-worthy? I'm not sure I understand your point.

[Killkenny]

Whilst I agree the price won't rise consistently forever, currecies "true" value will be much greater on the AH than it is in bazaars because it opens up the competition by making it far more acessable.

There will be periods where it falls but over time the price will go up until you either reach a point where people won't pay any more (it will stabilise at this higher value) or supply will begin to exceed the reduced demand, which will never happen because a relic weapon is the end-all in ffxi so cost becomes somewhat irrelevant.

[Yugl]

Under this scenario, the coins would be expensive for everyone. They would be slightly less expensive for the botter who instructs his bot to camp the AH for the
"cheap" coins; however, the consequence of this behavior is that the botter would get coins much less frequently than normal buyers.

And again, I think it's necessary to point out that these exact circumstances already apply to almost every item currently on the AH. You can camp/bot the Ah for elemental ores at <= 50k, but it means that you'll be sitting around for a while before you get them.

So as I said, this means that the price will stabilize at a point where the coins are not being snatched off the AH within seconds of their listing. I see nothing inherently wrong with this.

Alright, that is a possibility; but what happens if the botter intentially spends more than the normal amount? For example, lets say the median price is 15k and the fluctuated price is 19k. What's not to say the botter isn't rich and willing to pay up to 18k? If other people aren't willing to spend that much, how will they compete? The few coins that do go up for 15k will be taken by the botter. The ones that go for 18 or less will be taken by the botter. The ones greater than 18k are the only ones available for normal purchase. They will either buy them (And crowd out the Bot by paying higher prices) or leave them (In which case incoming coins will be undercut after seeing the amount on the AH). If it's the former, it's as I mentioned earlier; the normal buyers are paying a higher price. If it's the latter, the botter will buy the coins before the normal buyer anyways. It would take the unwillingness of a botter to pay more than 18k, the willingness of normal buyers to pay at ~19k, and the willingness of sellers to continue selling at 19k (Instead of increasing the price) in order for your scheme to work. I frankly don't see that as a likely scenario.

Are you saying that AHable items are necessarily not bot-worthy? I'm not sure I understand your point.

No, I'm simply saying not all AHable items are bot worthy. All bot worthy items are AHable items, but not all AHable items are bot worthy (Note that bot worthy isn't in reference to HNMs as some might want to assert).

[Gergall]

Alright, that is a possibility; but what happens if the botter intentially spends more than the normal amount? For example, lets say the median price is 15k and the fluctuated price is 19k. What's not to say the botter isn't rich and willing to pay up to 18k? If other people aren't willing to spend that much, how will they compete?

They won't compete. The rich person willing to pay the most gil gets the items. That's the idea.

If the rich person is incredibly rich and can maintain that 18k price for a very long time, then 18k becomes the new standard price. Wannabes who can't afford to keep up are discouraged (or simply buy what little they can afford). Those who can afford it buy whats available for just above the botter's limit.

Here's another way to think of it: the price of the coins will rise until they are no longer a "bot-worthy" item.

[Yugl]

They won't compete. The rich person willing to pay the most gil gets the items. That's the idea.

If the rich person is incredibly rich and can maintain that 18k price for a very long time, then 18k becomes the new standard price. Wannabes who can't afford to keep up are discouraged (or simply buy what little they can afford). Those who can afford it buy whats available for just above the botter's limit.

That's exactly the problem and the reason they won't make coins AHable. People are already complaining about those who resell coins for a higher price, yet it wouldn't be a problem if they were even higher? From my perspective, it's good because I'll never fund a relic. For those funding a relic, this isn't good at all.

[Spider-Dan]

Why do people have this idea that somehow ancient currency will work in a completely different manner than everything else on the AH? Do you also think ABCs and alex will go up in price if made AHable?

IS are AHable and salvage armor is not broken. Relic weapons will not be broken either. While it is true that easy availability will tend to drive prices up, keep in mind that increased ease of ability to SELL dyna currency will tend to drive prices DOWN.

And honestly, if coins are AHable and the price goes up (or down), so what? Coins will better reflect the true value of relic. Is it somehow better if they don't?

[Gergall]

That's exactly the problem and the reason they won't make coins AHable. People are already complaining about those who resell coins for a higher price, yet it wouldn't be a problem if they were even higher? From my perspective, it's good because I'll never fund a relic. For those funding a relic, this isn't good at all.

I've had a stage 4 horn for 18 months now (RL cut my playtime drastically, into a fraction of its former glory). I have every reason to be biased towards an end where coins would be cheap.

However, even with personal gain as an incentive, I'm not swayed. In my opinion, scouring bazaars for cheap coins (and other cheap items) and reselling them for higher prices that some people are completely willing to pay, is a completely legitimate means of earning gil. I would never do it, because it's boring and unreliable and unpredictable. But I don't complain about it.

When someone bazaars a coin cheaply, they are essentially resigning themselves to the fact that they could have gotten more gil for it if they were more patient, but they would rather get some quick cash right away. They also knowingly accept the fact that the buyer might just be someone who is going to resell the coin at a higher price.

It would be the same story on the AH. Some people would throw out cheap coins for quick cash, not caring that more patient players will resell them slowly for profit.

Like Spider-Dan I would not give any concern to bots. Bots are just buyers who buy fast. They have limited gil. Nobody is rich enough to sustain buying 100s forever.

[Yugl]

Why do people have this idea that somehow ancient currency will work in a completely different manner than everything else on the AH? Do you also think ABCs and alex will go up in price if made AHable?

ABCs and Alexandrites don't serve the exact same function as ancient currency. Alexandrites are close, but the real obstacle is the TIV items not just the currency. To answer your question however, I think ABCs would remain the same while Alexandrites would increase in price. People already buy for 3k and resell at higher prices. Why wouldn't this process continue to a greater extend with an AH system which concentrates products and makes price fluctuation more viable via history chart and botting?

IS are AHable and salvage armor is not broken. Relic weapons will not be broken either.

IS is not comparable to ancient currency.

While it is true that easy availability will tend to drive prices up, keep in mind that increased ease of ability to SELL dyna currency will tend to drive prices DOWN.

It was under your prediction that prices increase. Unless you plan to deny the existence of botters and resellers, you cannot deny that prices will increase.

And honestly, if coins are AHable and the price goes up (or down), so what? Coins will better reflect the true value of relic. Is it somehow better if they don't?

Like I said, what's better depends on your situation. I don't care to upgrade a relic so making them more expensive can only help me. For someone who is gil conscious or does not want to put up with botters, the AH system is bad.

I've had a stage 4 horn for 18 months now (RL cut my playtime drastically, into a fraction of its former glory). I have every reason to be biased towards an end where coins would be cheap.

Thanks for speaking for the entire community.

However, even with personal gain as an incentive, I'm not swayed. In my opinion, scouring bazaars for cheap coins (and other cheap items) and reselling them for higher prices that some people are completely willing to pay, is a completely legitimate means of earning gil. I would never do it, because it's boring and unreliable and unpredictable. But I don't complain about it.

Look a few pages back and you'll see that people responded to the AH Botting argument with the reselling argument. I am only informing them of the potential consequences (And thus, reasons why SE didn't implement the AH system for coins) of an AH system with regards to their demands (Higher Availability/Cheaper Prices).

When someone bazaars a coin cheaply, they are essentially resigning themselves to the fact that they could have gotten more gil for it if they were more patient, but they would rather get some quick cash right away. They also knowingly accept the fact that the buyer might just be someone who is going to resell the coin at a higher price.

It would be the same story on the AH. Some people would throw out cheap coins for quick cash, not caring that more patient players will resell them slowly for profit.

The AH and Bazaar market are not the same. Unlike the AH, it's more difficult to fix prices for Bazaar only items. By fix, I don't mean standardize so much as manipulate. RMT are a great example of this. As you may have noticed, RMT are manipulating the prices of items all the time. Some servers sell Heca Cap (Without Abjuration) for 200k while Diabolos remains at 600k. Why is that the case? Price fixing and AH history. If I got a bunch of friends to buy a 500k item from my bazaar for 200k multiple times, would that suddenly lead to others setting their prices at 200k? No. Could a scheme like that work with the AH? Yes.

Like Spider-Dan I would not give any concern to bots. Bots are just buyers who buy fast. They have limited gil. Nobody is rich enough to sustain buying 100s forever.

I think you underestimate the buying power of some players. Aside from that, the fact that they buy fast is a problem. If they buy fast, they can make sure they're the *only* ones buying at a specific price. When the price increases, they can either accept it or leave it to normal payers to take the hit. This creates inequality because it allows botters an unfair advantage. Normal payers either have to pay high prices or wait for the prices to regulate. However, as soon as they do regulate, the botters are in action. Botting on the AH may not be a zero-sum game as it is with HNMs, but it does come at a hefty price to those without bots.

Edit: This isn't a discussion of whether or not it's better to have coins AHable or Bazaar onry. It's a discussion of why SE kept them from the AH. Keep that in mind when responding. What is considered good or bad depends entirely on the individual.

[Gergall]

I have little left to add. Wanted to mention that the higher prices would only be a better reflection of the true value of the items (they are worth whatever people will pay for them) which I consider a good thing, even though I would personally benefit from cheaper prices.

However, I think that was already stated, so I think I'm done