Welcome to the White House/ABC socialist media hour

[sephir]

The last time I was at the hospital I waited about 2 hours, but it was not serious and it was at about 4:30 in the morning. Almost every single time before that I was seen within 20 minutes of going in. I literally filled in a piece of paper with my Health card ID, explained what was wrong, listed the symptoms and handed it to the nurse.

But I have heard far too many horror stories of my friends going to the hospital in the US. A friend of mine when he was about 12 got really sick when he was in Florida. It was some weird form of Strep Throat and his parents took him to the hospital. A two night stay in the hospital and one shot of anti-biotics ran them about $17,000 USD (this is when 1 USD =.63 CDN or there abouts). Luckily for them they were well off and his dad had an out of country insurance which covered the cost. I just find that outragous to charge someone that much for a shot in the arm and two nights in a hospital.

I have heard my share of horror stories, but none of them have really been bad. My friends mom had to wait 6 weeks for an MRI but her injury was very minor so there was no great demand to put her closer to the front.
My dad had hi knee replaced about 2 years ago now, and quite literally if there was any sort of problem he would just show up at the hospitals clinic and they would serve him almost immediately.

As for the cancer research funding someone was talking about earlier. My university does not have a medical school but it has a very renowned veterinarian school and they are actually making a very solid name for themselves in cancer research. They are finding many new working techniques to dealing with cancer by using other large mammals such as pigs, dogs and horses. Just because you have universal health care does not mean that these research stations will disapear.

I would not trust Leif's information its very inaccurate. His Claim that doctors and nurses cannot be fired here is just pathetic and cannot be further from the truth.

[Dimmauk]

Are you sure? I would think that Americans that are against Free Health Care would know more about YOUR Free Health care.

[Yeager]

Let me just say it and get it over with...

Obama = Anti-Christ. There, I said it. Now what?

You, sir, make me ashamed that I live in the same city as you....go back to Vidor where you belong.

[Jodwahh]

To be fair he did say he was trolling but messed up up when he trolled himself.

[Yeager]

To be fair he did say he was trolling but messed up up when he trolled himself.

Yeah, I saw that after the fact. I lol'd

[Kyreth]

The Catch-22 of American health care- folks who can't afford to pay one, have to pay the other, end up screwed.

Take my girlfriend. She opted not to take health care in order to be able to pay her college loans off, as the only option available would have eaten a huge chunk of her paycheck- more than she'd be able to afford and still live.

Surprise! 27-year old has heart attack, gets ambulanced from her small town to a big city hospital.

The bill for this was initially more than I make in two years, working a full time job for $13+/hr. (And yes, I do pay for my health insurance.) When they realized it'd be literally impossible for a now-unemployed (layoffs) woman in her late 20's to do so, they ended up waiving much of the cost, though she ended up throwing most of her savings towards paying what she could.

The irony? The hospital found out in the process she's diabetic, now she has to take insulin multiple times a day + medication for her heart, and is still uninsured. We're hoping to god she gets a job with a government agency around here and can get on a federal health plan of some sort. Or Medicaid. Or -something-. Nothing like thousands of dollars in unavoidable health care costs every month...

[Olo401]

How do you propose to solve your make-believe problem of "rich people". Impose a 100% death tax so everybody starts at 0$ and on welfare?

How about we just go back to the estate tax we had in place for over 100 years until it was partially repealed in 2001, which was never 100% and never put any family, much less any rich one, back at 0 or on welfare.

By the way I know you've got a hard-on for the whole "death tax" angle but I have to ask, since you're such an educated and need-to-know individual, if you even know the origins & reason that an estate tax was originally put into place? If not, from Wikipedia:

In the 1880s and 1890s many states passed inheritance taxes, which taxed the donees on the receipt of their inheritance. While many objected to the application of an inheritance tax, some including Andrew Carnegie and John D. Rockefeller supported increases in the taxation of inheritance.[23]
At the beginning of the 20th century President Theodore Roosevelt advocated the application of a progressive inheritance tax on the federal level.[24]
In 1916, Congress adopted the present federal estate tax, which instead of taxing the wealth that a donee inherited as occurred in the state inheritance taxes it taxed the wealth of a donor's estate upon transfer.

From NCPA:

- The first estate tax, enacted July 6, 1797 to help pay for naval rearmament, required only the purchase of federal stamps for wills and estates but was terminated four years later because the need for the revenue passed.

- A direct tax on inheritances imposed in 1862 during the Civil War ranged from 0.75 percent to 5 percent. The top rate was raised to 6 percent in 1864; but the tax was then abolished July 14, 1870.

- In 1898, an estate tax with a top rate of 15 percent on estates over $1 million was imposed to pay for the Spanish-American War -- then repealed on April 12, 1902.

- America's fourth estate tax, enacted in 1916, set a top rate of 10 percent on estates over $5 million. It was raised to 25 percent in 1917, but this rate applied only to estates over $10 million. Unlike its predecessors, it was not repealed after the war, although the top rate was dropped to 20 percent in 1926.

Okay, so it's imposed during times of war to help pay the costs.. but why was it kept? Here's the reason, and the most convincing argument, from industrialist and 1800s American millionaire Andrew Carnegie's essay The Gospel of Wealth.. Read the whole thing - it's too lengthy to quote.

Since you actually brought up statistics, you're going to have to cite them.
....
Again with the statistics. Cite them!

The Long-Term Outlook for Health Care Spending - scroll down to "Historical Growth of Healthcare Spending"

Medicare does not have the potential to run insurance companies out of business.

It's not designed to do so - it was implemented to make sure the elderly had adequate & catastrophic health care coverage in response to the Great Depression. Just like the current proposal would not be designed to replace the private insurance industry or force everyone onto a government plan - it would be designed to provide health coverage for those who can't afford private insurance, which would lower everyone's healthcare costs by providing both a more efficient cost of care and keeping people healthy to prevent expensive catastrophic care.

In fact, in the age bracket medicare covers the private insurance industry doesn't even want customers because it hurts their bottom line. In the constant quest for unending profits, private plans use Medicare as a dumping ground for people over 60 (unless they're paying the big bucks year after year for full boat coverage) and consistently work to deny coverage to its paying customers under that age.

SUPRISE! USPS outsources to FedEx. Hint: It's not because USPS could have done it cheaper.

News to me.. I think it's only fair to ask for a source since you asked for mine.

[kuronosan]

Well, that's lovely you think so. But as you yourself admit, you can afford and pay for your health insurance. If you don't like it, walk over to another one of the 1200 companies out there. It isn't a monopoly. You just sound like the next dude who wants free everything for doing nothing. America isn't great because you get instant government-funded liberty. It's great because you can individually pursue your own liberty.

I can barely afford my health insurance. I work an hourly sales job where I'm lucky to make $300-400 every 2 weeks. I'm not out of school yet (which, when I am out, I will be making more than $40,000-50,000). That's pretty presumptuous of you to think that I sound like some guy who wants to freeload and get everything for free when I spent 2-3 paragraphs talking about how I don't respect freeloaders.

Seriously? Learn to fucking read, buddy. I don't want *free* health care. I want *better* health care. I want the services I pay for to cover what they need to without draining my wallet every paycheck.

No where in my post did I ever beg to be released of the burden of having to pay my insurance. And maybe you live in magic land where there are tons of options for health insurance in your area. Not everyone in America is that fortunate.

Don't be such a narrow-minded douchebag.

[Zhais]

zhais, I forget exactly, but don't you generally lean towards capitalism and markets? just curious.

I love to tort around Ayn Rand just to get a rise out of people... and because I used Objectivism as a basis for a lot of LD debates in high school. Judges loved it, opponents hated it >:D

I'm kinda in between... free markets for some things, not for others. Not entirely sure on a lot since I haven't taken the time to research it

[Vandalhart]

There should never be a situation where it's EITHER your health insurance or your mortgage/groceries/utilities.

[Dimmauk]

I can barely afford my health insurance. I work an hourly sales job where I'm lucky to make $300-400 every 2 weeks. I'm not out of school yet (which, when I am out, I will be making more than $40,000-50,000). That's pretty presumptuous of you to think that I sound like some guy who wants to freeload and get everything for free when I spent 2-3 paragraphs talking about how I don't respect freeloaders.

Seriously? Learn to fucking read, buddy. I don't want *free* health care. I want *better* health care. I want the services I pay for to cover what they need to without draining my wallet every paycheck.

No where in my post did I ever beg to be released of the burden of having to pay my insurance. And maybe you live in magic land where there are tons of options for health insurance in your area. Not everyone in America is that fortunate.

Don't be such a narrow-minded douchebag.

Its hard not to be a narrow-minded douchebag, when you are parroting other narrow-minded douchebags.

It's probably not really a news program, just an interview + speech or something. Any news content likely will have nothing to do with the health care debate. Not keeping opposing views in is par for the course for any political broadcast. Whether Bush made a speech or Obama does, they dont have to and there is no mandate that makes them do it. We had that once, it was struck down, and I'm guessing you're against making the fairness doctrine come back.

Also, as long as you call it socialist health care, you're being intellectually dishonest.



Details?

Also:

Conservative means many things depending on who you're trying to appeal to, what country you're in, what time you're talking about, etc.
It means everything from institutionalized racism to monarchy to christian values. Interestingly enough, historically, free market economics is considered to be liberal.
Don't get mad when the word conservative can mean almost anything.

I quoted this and bolded cause I think its funny how these Rush Limbaugh and Fox news sheep are complaining about ABC News. Rush talks about how Obama wants to destroy him and being back the Fairness Doctrine, and then his followers turn around and complain about ABC.

[Zhais]

Older post, but meh

Your 45 million uninsured "Americans" includes 10 million illegals. In addition, you have no statistics on how many Americans are uninsured and also simply cannot afford coverage. How do you know all of these people are not so rich, going without health care comes out better financially in the end, do not see health care as a priority, simply choose to lease fancy cars, etc etc?

Source for 10 million illegals? Don't think that was covered in mine... and even so, so we still have 35 million that don't have insurance, and won't have a chance at covering any medical expenses should they arise. Essentially dooming them the moment they get sick. Alright!

Private companies are more efficient, competitive, and cheaper than the government.

Taking example with the NHS in England... NHS is pretty fucking cheap. I don't have a direct source, but somehow I doubt their private insurances are cheaper than the government supplied care. I ask you, if private companies are SO much cheaper than the government, why are our prices sky-high?

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I assume you are insinuating that the government plan would be cheaper. If you still aren't convinced the government is inefficient, think of the USPS and the DMV.

Look back at my post, I sourced some numbers. Look back in previous pages for counter-example of 1000+ a month to get insurance for a family of four. It's there

The UK system is out of money because of this.

the United States has the largest per capita health care expenditures out of any other nation in the world (Rice, Thomas H. Containing Health Care Costs in the United States. Washington, DC: Public Policy Institute, AARP, 1991 page 3).

^ Doesn't directly argue the fact, as I don't know how the rest of the UK budget is run... but our spending is a hell of a lot more percentage than theirs is, and I don't see you complaining that the med system is bleeding money.

[Effluo]

You, sir, make me ashamed that I live in the same city as you....go back to Vidor where you belong.

I am glad you finished reading the rest of the thread before you decided to post... oh wait. At least someone already mentioned my failed trolling for you.

Heard of Vidor, never been there. Place makes me sick from what I've heard. Hopefully I never have to drive through there, cause I'm just intolerant enough, I might have to kick some kowboy klan ass...

[Tristam]

A worthwhile read about the Obama plan thus far, some fun facts about the absurd inflation of health care costs, not the cost of providing the health care mind you, but the administrative costs of dealing with health insurance companies which have gone up 30% per year in the past eight years..... not exactly what I would call efficient.

The Obama Plan - Part I : denialism blog

[Devia]

In the interest of presenting the issue from the supposed perspective of a health insurer, I'll just leave this here.

http://www.wellpoint.com/pdf/Premium...%20Drivers.pdf

[Leif]

News to me.. I think it's only fair to ask for a source since you asked for mine.

In 2001, FedEx sealed a $9 billion deal with the USPS to transport all of the post office's overnight and express deliveries.[15]
FedEx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Everyone keeps saying "free health care". That really means you don't think you won't be paying anything out of pocket.

"We can just raise taxes to cover it!"
No, you can't. Raising taxes means less money for the government. If you add Obamacare, the $10 trillion deficit, etc etc, the solution cannot be "tax the rich". Quite simply, they won't pay.

Trying to buy a Mercedes on a farmer's wages is not an effective way to get things done.

We can't afford it. Nobody will pay for it. The countries that stick the government in charge of health care have mediocre care and they still run out of money.


Again, I emphasize that somebody who truly wants health care CAN get it. You CAN accomplish something. You DO NOT have to have the government hand you everything on a silver platter. Stop wasting your potential.

[Jodwahh]

The NHS is far from mediocre but as an american im sure you would know better than me.

[Dimmauk]

In 2001, FedEx sealed a $9 billion deal with the USPS to transport all of the post office's overnight and express deliveries.[15]
FedEx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




Everyone keeps saying "free health care". That really means you don't think you won't be paying anything out of pocket.

"We can just raise taxes to cover it!"
No, you can't. Raising taxes means less money for the government. If you add Obamacare, the $10 trillion deficit, etc etc, the solution cannot be "tax the rich". Quite simply, they won't pay.

Trying to buy a Mercedes on a farmer's wages is not an effective way to get things done.

We can't afford it. Nobody will pay for it. The countries that stick the government in charge of health care have mediocre care and they still run out of money.


Again, I emphasize that somebody who truly wants health care CAN get it. You CAN accomplish something. You DO NOT have to have the government hand you everything on a silver platter. Stop wasting your potential.

And yet again, as usual you post the same tired solutionless crap. Hey, minimum wage worker, sorry you cant afford to ever get hurt, just try harder. I have insurance, and I pay a ridiculous amount every paycheck for my wife and kid. I doubt if the evil Obama regime taxed me, it would be more than what I'm currently paying for my shitty coverage.

[Olo401]

In 2001, FedEx sealed a $9 billion deal with the USPS to transport all of the post office's overnight and express deliveries.[15]
FedEx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you.

Everyone keeps saying "free health care". That really means you don't think you won't be paying anything out of pocket.

The only people saying "free health care" are people who are completely uninformed and people trying to discredit a plan that helps get as many people insured as possible.. I think it's safe to assume most everyone involved in our discussion is above the delusion that it is free.

Raising taxes means less money for the government.

Uhh.. what?

[Leif]

Uhh.. what?

This is a pretty typical reaction to that argument. I'll break it down.

I am in the business of selling bicycles.

I can choose one business model.

Model 1: Give the bikes away for free. Everybody will pick up their free bike. As a result, I will not make any money.

Model 2: Sell each bike for 1 million dollars. Nobody will pick up a bike. As a result, I will not make any money.

Model 3: Find the middle ground where I can maximize profits.

If you increase taxes on the rich, they pay less money.

Following Clinton's tax hike, the top 1% of the population were a smaller portion of the IRS's revenue compared to a time in which their taxes were less.

However, while Obama can keep the lower to middle classes happy with the fake knowledge that they are "getting those rich bastards", they are taxed away with things like the cigarette tax, etc.