Post concerning "Tanaka Producer inteview on Latest Famitsu regarding FF11" Interview pg.4

[Plow]

Plow is right. All you need to do is parse the avatar damage and you're set. I did that for my COR rolls and found out that you're likely to roll 11s during Full moon than during other moon phases.

You forget that someone could test it a few thousand times and prove that wrong.


There's a pretty massive difference between parsing accuracy and whatever the hell you're trying to say with that.

What kind of information because as long as you know the mob family rank, job combination, and ranks of stats for said job you can determine almost all the stats of the mob. For instance, a level 63 Robber Crab in Vunkerl Inlet has roughly the following stats:

Def: 289
Eva: 218
VIT: 84 (PLD/PLD)
AGI: 43
MND: 68
INT: 46

I've been working on cataloging mob stats of monsters that are commonly fought for the past few months and I need to go back and re-tune a few but it's fairly easy to determine mob stats.

Base damage values of mobs are difficult because we simply don't know how they change from level to level.

Was referring to the fact we can't put on af1 pants, check a mob with our avatar, and figure out exact acc. Have to actually parse it. Let alone skill bonus, which only affects blood pacts.

But yeah, using that kind of info we can figure out a whole lot.

[Yugl]

Since a lot of people seem to be wooshed by my post, I'll help you guys out. If there is a "random factor" in play, your parse will be skewed.

Just as how you can parse events we know to be random (Rolls) and happen to come up with a pseudo-factor (Moon phase), you can also parse damage and come up with pseudo-results. More samples are supposed to limit this disparity, but they don't always do. It was intended to knock the idea that parsing solves everything, but I guess people prefer to get wooshed instead of accept a joke.

[TummieGaruda]

You forget that someone could test it a few thousand times and prove that wrong.


There's a pretty massive difference between parsing accuracy and whatever the hell you're trying to say with that.





Was referring to the fact we can't put on af1 pants, check a mob with our avatar, and figure out exact acc. Have to actually parse it. Let alone skill bonus, which only affects blood pacts.

But yeah, using that kind of info we can figure out a whole lot.

Ah ok, I see what you mean. Yeah regardless the /check system is broken because it doesn't take level correction into account plus, avatars bypass any level correction as it is anyways. Would be nice if you could get a /check message for the avatar too.

The only thing that could be done is just parse against the same mobs and mark down their respective levels based on exp earned and compare results against afv1 pants. Just takes a lot of time and patience. Could also figure out how smn acc is calculated...I have some ideas but need to borrow my friend to get a large sample.

It was intended to knock the idea that parsing solves everything, but I guess people prefer to get wooshed instead of accept a joke.

On the lower end, parsing can help determine the effects of gear pieces such as AFv1 accuracy...I understand your woosh but it did somewhat bring up the topic of figuring out game mechanics.

[Plow]

Since a lot of people seem to be wooshed by my post, I'll help you guys out. If there is a "random factor" in play, your parse will be skewed.

Just as how you can parse events we know to be random (Rolls) and happen to come up with a pseudo-factor (Moon phase), you can also parse damage and come up with pseudo-results. More samples are supposed to limit this disparity, but they don't always do. It was intended to knock the idea that parsing solves everything, but I guess people prefer to get wooshed instead of accept a joke.

urite, parsing real world results is meaningless, we should all just go by the guy that says he does crappy dmg no matter what, that's why we're in bg advanced


edit cuz posts keep coming in between lol

Ah ok, I see what you mean. Yeah regardless the /check system is broken because it doesn't take level correction into account plus, avatars bypass any level correction as it is anyways. Would be nice if you could get a /check message for the avatar too.

The only thing that could be done is just parse against the same mobs and mark down their respective levels based on exp earned and compare results against afv1 pants. Just takes a lot of time and patience. Could also figure out how smn acc is calculated...I have some ideas but need to borrow my friend to get a large sample.

Yeah, this is the main deal, people don't want to test something that happens every 45 sec to a minute thousands of times, it's not that they just can't.

[Yugl]

urite, parsing real world results is meaningless, we should all just go by the guy that says he does crappy dmg no matter what, that's why we're in bg advanced

That's exactly what advanced is for. If you want math, go to standard. I didn't say parsing is meaningless. I said that if there is a random factor in all of this, your parses will be skewed.

For both Plow and Tummie: Parsing is not enough. If you parse, you need to test your results. It's not enough to look at a parse and say "Hey I think this does this" unless you actually go out and test it. People think parses are the end all solution when they're really just the beginning. If parses could solve everything, then we wouldn't have so much conflict over Magic ACC and Hit rate (See other thread).

[TummieGaruda]

That's exactly what advanced is for. If you want math, go to standard. I didn't say parsing is meaningless. I said that if there is a random factor in all of this, your parses will be skewed.

For both Plow and Tummie: Parsing is not enough. If you parse, you need to test your results. It's not enough to look at a parse and say "Hey I think this does this" unless you actually go out and test it. People think parses are the end all solution when they're really just the beginning. If parses could solve everything, then we wouldn't have so much conflict over Magic ACC and Hit rate (See other thread).

Parsing is a tool that helps figuring stuff out. Parsing allows you to get a general idea or at least form a hypothesis as to how certain aspects/mechanics of the game work. What we are talking about here is parsing while testing at the same time in a controlled enviornment. By controlled I mean you fight a mob that doesn't skew results based on TP mobes (+eva, +def, etc), and you mark down each individual mobs exp given so that you know what level they are and you group individual results by the level of the mob, since mobs have different ranges. You parse with gear that does not increase avatar accuracy, get your results, then compare to parses with gear that increases avatar accuracy. From there you are able to form a hypothesis.. X gear increases Y result by Z amount. Since testing while parsing is in a controlled situation, you then have to go out and test it on other things such as events and then parse to see if you are able to replicate your earlier results and see if they are conclusive, if not, you go back to the drawing board. We never once said that the parse is the end all solution. Parsing data is a good start to figuring some unkown things out.

[Yugl]

Parsing is a tool that helps figuring stuff out. Parsing allows you to get a general idea or at least form a hypothesis as to how certain aspects/mechanics of the game work. What we are talking about here is parsing while testing at the same time. You parse with gear that does not increase avatar accuracy, get your results, then compare to parses with gear that increases avatar accuracy. From there you are able to form a hypothesis.. X gear increases Y result by Z amount. Since testing while parsing is in a controlled situation, you then have to go out and test it on other things such as events and then parse to see if you are able to replicate your earlier results and see if they are conclusive, if not, you go back to the drawing board. We never once said that the parse is the end all solution. Parsing data is a good start to figuring some unkown things out.

And how are parses going to help if you have a random factor involved that's great enough to skew the results? Look at the line of comments I was responding to:

Initial Question

Well has there been any tests? What is there to say there isn't a randomly changing bonus for every BP?

Resulting Response

There was quite a bit in standard here. All it takes is regular parsing to understand the basics, really.

If there is a randomly changing variable, then how can you see it in the parses? Not that I believe there is a random variable, but if there is, parsing will not figure this out.

Edit: I think we both understand that parsing is not the solution to problems. The problem is, you're taking my comment out of context. I wasn't saying parses cannot pick up the effect of equipments, I was saying it cannot pick up random variables.

[TummieGaruda]

And how are parses going to help if you have a random factor involved that's great enough to skew the results? Look at the line of comments I was responding to:

Initial Question


Resulting Response


If there is a randomly changing variable, then how can you see it in the parses? Not that I believe there is a random variable, but if there is, parsing will not figure this out.

Edit: I think we both understand that parsing is not the solution to problems. The problem is, you're taking my comment out of context. I wasn't saying parses cannot pick up the effect of equipments, I was saying it cannot pick up random variables.

My parses were talking about accuracy for the avatar in general not the BP's. Plow must have thought I was talking about BP's...I was specifically speaking about melee accuracy.

Silenka brought up two points:

On the other hand, SMNs don't even know how much accuracy their basic AF legs give their avatar, as avatar damage really is too random to calculate it.

and

I haven't seen any evidence anywhere presented on behalf of someone's ability to calculate avatar damage output, which leads me to believe that it's nigh-unmeasurable beyond "well, we THINK 1 smn skill is roughly equivalent to 1 acc..."

I was mainly speaking in response to the first part where it was brought up about SMN AF1 pants and accuracy and the ability to try to parse it. I am not sure how "avatar damage" being too random to calculate comes into play with accuracy of melee or BP's unless you are using multihit BP's such as PC, Rush and the like. It would be best to use a single hit BP if trying to figure out acc on BP's such as spinning dive.

[Plow]

Yugl's just pissed from other threads and wants to argue with me.

Even if there are random factors, you can figure out the basics from extensive parsing, which is exactly what I said.


Fortunately, there's absolutely no reason other than pure ignorance to believe avatar accuracy is "random," and we can rely on extensive testing showing clear superiority to be evidence of improvement.


The fact of the matter is, claiming SMN skill, and accuracy merits/eq don't improve anything is simply foolish, and I really can't believe we've spent a full page at this point discussing that.

[Yugl]

I can't believe you guys turned a topic about an FFXI interview into a SMN gear/ACC argument. Then again, it's not surprising considering some of the participants.

[TummieGaruda]

I can't believe you guys turned a topic about an FFXI interview into a SMN gear/ACC argument. Then again, it's not surprising considering somer of the participants.

We aren't the only ones that contributed to this

[Silenka]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about melee accuracy, I was talking about PC and the other multi-hit BPs. I do believe I stated that I wasn't supporting the idea that smn skill and acc gear don't improve acc, however.

Honestly, the main issue I have is this: I have 8 smn magic skill merits, earring/torque/relic hands, body&feet, oracle's legs, the works. However, my PC whiffs all but 1 hit just as often as my friend who lacks merits and a lot of the gear I have. My PC crits just as often as my friend's, if not less. We're always playing smn together, and it's just baffling to me that his avatars can consistently put out better damage than mine when my gear and skill are UNQUESTIONABLY better. That's what I mean when I say it's random - even parsed against a smn who is naked, I'm almost positive the overall damage would just about equal out.

It's ridiculous that I've invested so much time and effort into my gear and merits with nothing to show for it except that I tried to be better than everyone else who has smn. I know a couple of people who speed-leveled SMN to 75 who have ~230 or less skill and almost no actual SMN gear, yet hit roughly the same numbers against Impossible to Gauge mobs (such as Odin and Jailers) as merited/geared SMNs. That should not happen if the job was properly fleshed out math-wise. Something is very wrong with SMN, but we've known that...

[Plow]

Parse yourself regularly against said friend, I'm certain you'll find your eyeballing is significantly misleading. Human condition remembering the bad better than the good etc.

[Silenka]

Parse yourself regularly against said friend, I'm certain you'll find your eyeballing is significantly misleading. Human condition remembering the bad better than the good etc.

Could be, maybe I'll try it...

It's just a lot easier to see the difference between a well-geared melee vs a naked/shoddily geared one. It's absolutely obvious in that case. =/

[Plow]

I found it pretty obvious the difference between myself as a phys acc/phys att merited smn with 3% crit on blood pacts and smn bracers/pigas, and typical new 75 smn that didn't have anything, back when my gear was rare. Long, long before skill update, which just made it a whole new ballgame.

I remember doing Wyrms in 04 with pet group and having pretty much every SMN switch to whatever pact I used atm because my damage was always just that clearly superior.

At this point if something is evasive enough for me to miss predator claws, I just go directly to Nether Blast, because if I can't land PC consistently I can't land anything.


But, really, beyond all of that... if you want to see a reeeeeal obvious, unmistakable, consistent difference, grab an acp body with mab and watch your nether blast instantly become 20-30 more dmg. Then, toss on 5 mab merits, some pet mab augments if you're that lucky, etc., and find yourself getting 600ish nethers for 105 mana. Or, work even farther and get into the >+60 smn skill range, add in macc merits, merit some pacts to 5, and go nuts.



Edit: don't get me wrong, I'd love to see more of the stuff. More pet macc/mab pieces. More pieces with SMN skill alongside other useful shit. Look at what a good NIN, MNK, SAM gained gearwise in ToAU, then look at what a SMN gained. That's the big difference, imo, is them just being too scared of making SMN really good via powerful gear.

I don't think the problem is them not being able to give us useful enough stats anymore-- look at ACP bodies. And I don't think it's that the stats themselves are ineffective. It's the simple fact that while other mages are getting pieces with macc/matt/mnd/int all mixed together, SMN are lucky to get a piece that has 1 useful stat.

[frodnonnag]

I don't think the problem is them not being able to give us useful enough stats anymore-- look at ACP bodies. And I don't think it's that the stats themselves are ineffective. It's the simple fact that while other mages are getting pieces with macc/matt/mnd/int all mixed together, SMN are lucky to get a piece that has 1 useful stat.

ACP gave us several earrings, a belt, the body, rings, and a new neck, that same update also gave us a +10 skill staff from annm.

[Silenka]

But, really, beyond all of that... if you want to see a reeeeeal obvious, unmistakable, consistent difference, grab an acp body with mab and watch your nether blast instantly become 20-30 more dmg. Then, toss on 5 mab merits, some pet mab augments if you're that lucky, etc., and find yourself getting 600ish nethers for 105 mana. Or, work even farther and get into the >+60 smn skill range, add in macc merits, merit some pacts to 5, and go nuts.

MAB is an easily measurable thing. I was only talking about physical pacts, not magical ones. (Yes, I have rr with the mab/macc and the 75 pacts, also 5 mattk merits). That one is obvious.

[Plow]

ACP gave us several earrings, a belt, the body, rings, and a new neck, that same update also gave us a +10 skill staff from annm.

Augmented items are the best example I can imagine of what a massive failure it is in mmo's when development goes like this:

"We want people to do these events and keep coming back to do them more. How do we accomplish that?"

"Make them challenging and entertaining, while consistently rewarding?"

"Nah, that's too much work."

"Oh, ok. Well, just make it so they have to do it over and over and over and over again for any chance to get the gear they want."

"Sounds good, get to it."

[frodnonnag]

Augmented items are the best example I can imagine of what a massive failure it is in mmo's when development goes like this:

"We want people to do these events and keep coming back to do them more. How do we accomplish that?"

"Make them challenging and entertaining, while consistently rewarding?"

"Nah, that's too much work."

"Oh, ok. Well, just make it so they have to do it over and over and over and over again for any chance to get the gear they want."

"Sounds good, get to it."

acp, with it's flaws, gave us a great set of repeatable quests for a wide variety of gear. acp 6/7 being the best example of this. there's only two ways to really keep us on the questitem treadmill, repeating it for points, or repeating it for random drop, and acp 7 and 11 handle random drop in almost the best way it can, everyone who participates gets something.

[Indalecia]

To be fair, ACP was the best thing to happen to smn's in a looooooooooong time. It gave us a ton of options for both magical and physical BP's in slots that we never had access to before.