Post concerning "Tanaka Producer inteview on Latest Famitsu regarding FF11" Interview pg.4

[Yeargdribble]

So BRP are you saying the ideal MMO is one where there is nothing but story advancement, no gear, no drops... I assume no leveling since that's just something arbitrary. You would just go killing big things with lots of people for shits and grins and/or for story advancement and the only thing that lets you kill bigger harder things it the level of twitch skill you can learn at your keyboard/controller?

I mean... I'm just not getting what your RPG concept encompasses. Most people play these "bad" MMOs for some sort of progression and accomplishment. While at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit but 1s and 0s, the artificial accomplishment through pixelated gear with stats/status are what people play RPGs and MMOs for.

[Yeargdribble]

The only thing wrong with the gear is how you get it. If Dring dropped from a salvage-type event nobody would say one word and you can't argue that worth a damn.

The problem is that they refuse to admit they fucked up the 21-24 hour nm and fix it - the gear is not the problem the system is.

While largely I agree that it's their fault for being too prideful to admit their fuck up and just fix it later, the problem is also in the fact that from at itemization perspective those things showed up way too early in the game. You're right, nobody would complain about them in new content if there was a smooth curve.

They just hit a plateau in itemization too damned early and for several years everything was at best a sidegrade for situational use or at worst a downgrade.

Their only concept of how to balance out their overpoweredness from the start was to make the drop rate pitifully low.

[Khamsin]

A HNM that takes 18 people to kill should almost always drop nothing.

That's the way it is now, what are you complaining about?

[rezn0r]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/76078...her-games.html

[enoch]

It occurred to me earlier that SE missed a great opportunity in ACP to fix a social problem in the game. For a long time the debate of gear/skill has been waged - we know what the gear does, but on an individual basis we have to see how it gets used.

Where we get hung up is in expectations. Elite gear should mean elite player with elite skill, but we know how often that's not the case. So we rely on parse data to prove efficacy, but that can be difficult for non-DD jobs.

So one thing I wish they'd done was hide the augmentation data from everyone except the person equipping the item. You'd know what you got, and people would be able to assume it within a given range - but they wouldn't know for sure. That way people would only be able to judge you purely on your performance. Then it dawned on me... why not do that with ALL equipment, not just augmented? You'd know within a given range what the equipment *could* have on it, but you wouldn't know exactly - only the person equipping it would know. I think what you'd end up with is a whole lot less "this or this?" and a whole lot less bitching about gear in general and a greater focus on skill and player performance.

So, that's an idea on how to solve an in-game social problem that SE will likely never implement. Thoughts?

[konoko]

items=/=skill=/=luck

a game without luck factoring in would be boring, a game where luck is everything is frustrating

a game without rewards (items) is unfulfilling

and a game without skill is boring

FF does require skill(s) its just not the skill(s) you use in platformers or FPS's

honestly either play the game if you like it, quit if you don't and go play a different game, no one says you have to play ff11, or that you have to play ff14 when its released, or that you have to quit ff11 to play ff14 when its released

[Whaleporn]

It was skill, obviously, that led me to be facing west, 23% waxing moon, 12:24 earthsday, pos <G-6>, 20 earth res, 10 wind res, 5 lightning res....

[Silenka]

False alarm guys, no new avatar this update, move along, nothing to see here (seriously)

[Corrderio]

Hopefully this next add on has a decent storyline. One thing I really wonder though why ACP's requirements were 100% different from other mission based BCs. In the past in order to do a mission/quest battlefield you needed to be on or past the mission/quest, however the only requirement for ACP was just having access to the BC. Experiment SE is trying? Sure be awesome if SE adjusts all BC requirements like that.

As for the new avatar. I still think it's Ixion, since something never sat right with me regarding him. Though I still say a new avatar isn't going to do a thing. Just wish they'd adjust SMN so it's actually wanted in PTs instead of a last resort healer. Sure Astralburns are fun, but when Korroloka or something is crowded I'd like to have my flag up and not wait 3+ hours for an invite, just to rep someone then disband about 45 min. after I get there.

[BRP]

So BRP are you saying the ideal MMO is one where there is nothing but story advancement, no gear, no drops... I assume no leveling since that's just something arbitrary. You would just go killing big things with lots of people for shits and grins and/or for story advancement and the only thing that lets you kill bigger harder things it the level of twitch skill you can learn at your keyboard/controller?

I mean... I'm just not getting what your RPG concept encompasses. Most people play these "bad" MMOs for some sort of progression and accomplishment. While at the end of the day it doesn't mean shit but 1s and 0s, the artificial accomplishment through pixelated gear with stats/status are what people play RPGs and MMOs for.

This has nothing to do with storylines. That too is superficial, only people know enough not to confuse that with depth. Okay, you might find reviewers talking about how DEEP shadow of the colossus is, but retards aside for a moment.

To put it basically: most games don't use or need "progression." This is because they use real progression: where the player is progressing, not just the rules being switched(rule in this case being the stats of the equipped item.)

Accomplishment can't exist within a game, but outside it. Players feel accomplishment, not their characters. This accomplishment is going to be achieved through the battle system itself, not the literal results of a battle. At the very best they are a trophy(purely aesthetic) or a key, at the worst they dictate the game instead of the player. And what is accomplishment in FFXI? Killing fafnir not getting a ridill. Alternatively, killing someone in Ballista and not getting anything.

So an idea MMO would be a good (Strategy) videogame. No fat, depth instead of superficial depth, and certainly not designed around simulating a boring job(Accountant Fantasy XI.) MMOs are games after all...

Rezn0r linked a thread where this and a bunch of other crap were already discussed. It will include any information you need on the "RPG concept," but only quite a few pages in.

That's the way it is now, what are you complaining about?

Still very inaccessible thanks to other factors.

On top of those, let us not forget many, if not most, players see FFXI as work and expect to get paid. Either with imaginary paychecks or hugs from the dev team.

Ultimately, there shouldn't be any 18-man fights. It doesn't make the game deeper. It is a gimmick. The usual situation is 1 or 2 players get to play a game where they control 16-17 NPCs.


And to break down konoko's oddball thoughts on "skill" in games:

a game without luck factoring in would be boring,

How boring/fun a game is based on how much there is to learn. Depth!

As for luck vs skill: Dealing with luck is skill. Even with games with "no luck" you will be betting your odds because your opponent will have more than one option. Yomi, etc.

a game where luck is everything is frustrating

People curse at rolling dice or tossing coins? A game with "pure" luck is boring because it is simple. You can make it more complex by adding more coin tosses and more dice rolls together. Add modifiers and variety, now you got a strategy game.

a game without rewards (items) is unfulfilling

Hahaha, maybe if you work at IGE.

[Ayn]

The usual situation is 1 or 2 players get to play a game where they control 16-17 NPCs.

No sarcasm intended, but that sounds a lot like what bit I've played of Atlantica Online.

[Fiye]

What appealed to me in FFXI [Missions, Sidequests, Leveling] does not appeal to me anymore. Things change, tastes evolve and alter, and we find things to occupy time. I'll be giving Aion a try, and of course FFXIV. But whether or not I stay, depends on how the game is handled. If someone makes an MMO based around a FPS-style gameplay (Planetside, but not handled by SoE).

Darkfall's given me a taste of the hardcore end of PvP, and while refreshing, a group of exploiters really killed the fun in it.

Mortal seems like a good contender, however, I won't play it. Instead, I'll spend my time hunting around.

In the end, I'm just looking for time to kill, and to enjoy myself. Not to be OMGWTFBBQ rich and powerful. What's the point of loot when you have no one to share it with?

That's the big appeal of MMOs to me.

And also, I'm holding my breath for SMN update. I really doubt it'll be released next update. Maybe in the Winter update? Fanfest 2009

[Hyan]

The only thing wrong with the gear is how you get it. If Dring dropped from a salvage-type event nobody would say one word and you can't argue that worth a damn.

The problem is that they refuse to admit they fucked up the 21-24 hour nm and fix it - the gear is not the problem the system is.

Wrong. Well, half wrong. The HNM system is fucked up, but so is the gear. They could do something about the HNM's, but not about the gear. Not without million players going "Q__Q you nerfered mah krakken".

[BerenTebogo]

Ridill is outdated, Dring is exponentially less useful the more you dont suck (its still awesome but -10% of an already high pdt-% swap when you're barely taking damage anyways is..) Kraken is broken in certain situations and Ebody is sex on a cracker but I mean really...

It's the notoriety of the items that makes them so desirable, not the broken aspect of them. Min/maxing is fun but it doesn't break the game (besides kraken)

[Hyan]

Ridill is outdated, Dring is exponentially less useful the more you dont suck (its still awesome but -10% of an already high pdt-% swap when you're barely taking damage anyways is..) Kraken is broken in certain situations and Ebody is sex on a cracker but I mean really...

It's the notoriety of the items that makes them so desirable, not the broken aspect of them. Min/maxing is fun but it doesn't break the game (besides kraken)

They're not broken per se, but they were too good for the time they were released. Not so much anymore, but there's still items that mess things up..

Like peacock charm.. for level 33! What were they smoking.. or elemental staves.. for 51! O kote's not that bad, since there's bandomusha, but still it's for level 34. Makes no sense. Haubergeon, too. level 59 body shouldn't be so good that it trumps almost every 75 body for jobs that can equip it, but there we have it..

[Elmer the Pointy]

The magazine is coming out tomorrow, so I'll be making a post about it soon. I'm hoping for more details in the article itself, they usually only release little teasers and crappy pictures before they hit newsstands.

[BerenTebogo]

Peacock charm is arguably the only saving grace in the game until 40 and even then you're on your own after that until 59.

I get what you're saying but there are 3? total ACC+ pieces that have 3 or more ACC on them pre-40 (pre-CoP) and those are Battle gloves, Windurstian Tekko, and Peacock charm (10)

If I'm wrong correct me it's late so I could be forgetting stuff but the bottom line is, as a melee, you have ONE serious piece that you can wear to make yourself not suck and even with +13 ACC and a fuckload of DEX think back to pre-2h update and sushi, you still couldn't hit the broadside of a barn.

I'm still of the opinion that the gear isn't broken, the mechanics are. Forcing people to exp in all of 2-3 camps per level range max without refresh, dispel, and no real way to hold hate or mitigate damage or do damage. Read the JP survey I think they mention the way parties were years ago as "taking damage was the only real way to get TP so skillchains were very important and it was very important to have 3 mage 1 tank and 2 melee"

ACC+10 doesn't do shit by itself when your total skill is like 105? 110? Ochiudo's kote also don't matter because before you could merit before your next job, before sushi, that ACC+3 was going to matter more than the ATT+20 on your 10,000 wiffs anyways.

Haubergeon +1 is awesome but ask your average 2h DD player at 75 DD which is better: Askar Korazin or Haubergeon +1 and I think you'll find that Haubergeon +1 is only better to people who bother to think shit through (not the majority of the playerbase.)

Again, I understand your argument and the didn't balance stuff well, ACC+2 on more < level 40 pieces instead of ACC+10 on one, sure. But it isn't the PCCs fault that SE is retarded, or that they made every EXP mob pre ToAU come with +EVA and +DEF TP moves and didn't give us dispel til the 30s and only gave it to 2 jobs.

I argue that the pieces didn't mess anything up, they mitigated the gigantic level of suck, and happen to stay useful all the way to 75.

[Yeargdribble]

Accomplishment can't exist within a game, but outside it. Players feel accomplishment, not their characters. This accomplishment is going to be achieved through the battle system itself, not the literal results of a battle.

In all earnestness I appreciate this Platonic world-of-the-forms perfect concept you have and while microcosms of it may exist in real games I don't really see this happening that often.

To put it basically: most games don't use or need "progression." This is because they use real progression: where the player is progressing, not just the rules being switched(rule in this case being the stats of the equipped item.)

So an idea MMO would be a good (Strategy) videogame. No fat, depth instead of superficial depth, and certainly not designed around simulating a boring job(Accountant Fantasy XI.) MMOs are games after all...

So basically a Warcraft type game as an MMORTS rather than a MMORPG? Or are you talking more in a Final Fantasy Tactics type way? Perhaps a combination?

Rezn0r linked a thread where this and a bunch of other crap were already discussed. It will include any information you need on the "RPG concept," but only quite a few pages in.

Bah... I knew I should've stuck with that thread.



What place does any level of arbitrary gimmickry and sparkle have? You say that story doesn't add depth and I don't necessarily agree or disagree (depends on the manner). However, I think adding a straight up strategy game without any story or the other frills to which we've become accustomed would fall flat. Perhaps that bears some commentary from you on where we are as gamers now. But to me what you're proposing is basically a very over-developed and also sterilized form of chess.

Ultimately, there shouldn't be any 18-man fights. It doesn't make the game deeper. It is a gimmick. The usual situation is 1 or 2 players get to play a game where they control 16-17 NPCs.

Obvious pros and cons here, but is seems like you're potentially approaching a co-op RTS concept rather than any type of MMO. While the idea doesn't seem so outlandish (especially the way people multi-box MMOs these days) it just seems like you start to lose the community aspect which is what keeps many people interested in MMOs but that you might see as just extra superficiality.




I think I have to agree with many of konoko's points still. I think luck is needed. It needs to be balanced. Having either 100% everything all the time or 0.002% all the time sucks. Very few things if any should approach those extremes, however, even in a pure strategy game luck is an issue. Even in chess you're measuring up against the potential moves your opponent may make and while it's definitely more skill based than macro-hammering at the right moment for Faf, it's still partially luck based.

Think about tic-tac-toe. If both players play a perfect game every time you'll always draw and thus it's dull as hell.


For better or worse I also think that a game without extrinsic rewards is ultimately unfulfilling. Sure, when I was 9 I could play through some mindless platformer and be moderately happen to get to the end and get absolutely no cutscene for my desperate memorization of every move in the entire game it took to get there... perhaps that was enough, but I think we've evolved to need extrinsic rewards and while I definitely think it could be argued we've done this to a fault (silly achievements in every game under the sun) largely I think this is a good thing to have. We don't need to live in a place where games are the equivalent of Pong without a score. That's dull.

[Hyan]

Peacock charm is arguably the only saving grace in the game until 40 and even then you're on your own after that until 59.

I get what you're saying but there are 3? total ACC+ pieces that have 3 or more ACC on them pre-40 (pre-CoP) and those are Battle gloves, Windurstian Tekko, and Peacock charm (10)

Yes, that's part of the problem too. There's these omfguber pieces available, or there's nothing at all.

What if there was an acc +1 neck for lvl1-10 (there is), acc+2 neck for <20, acc+3 for <30, etc. and at 75 there'd be acc+10 neck. I think that that would be more balanced in the long run, than the +10 acc at 34 > nothing 'till upper 50's > acc+5 and +7 necks at ~60 > nothing 'till 70's > ! Ancient & sea torques at 70+.

Right now the pcc is also so expensive that really, if you're level 33 you have basically no chance to get it without farming your ass off for months. If there was a +4 acc neck instead (and +5 HQ?) that costed much less, I think we'd see an overall improvement in player's gears compared to now, even though the pcc beats them.

O kote could be +5~10 attack too, and it could go up by +2 attack until 75 and Bando's that give +22. The improvement would be more than the +2 attack per 30+ levels we have now, too, and the price would be lower at 34 (and thus more mnk/sam/nins could get them).

Right now the pieces only mitigate the suck for rich people.. basically those leveling their 2nd+ job and have the funds to get those O kotes and Pcc's, but that still leaves maaany people who can't afford them and thus suck even more than if there was a acc+4 neck around that they could afford.

But you're right about the mechanics. There's more than only gear progression wrong about lower levels, although I think they're both pretty messed up. If the mechanics were 'fixed', the problems of progression wouldn't be as severe, but they'd still be around most likely.

[BerenTebogo]

Yes, that's part of the problem too. There's these omfguber pieces available, or there's nothing at all.

What if there was an acc +1 neck for lvl1-10 (there is), acc+2 neck for <20, acc+3 for <30, etc. and at 75 there'd be acc+10 neck. I think that that would be more balanced in the long run, than the +10 acc at 34 > nothing 'till upper 50's > acc+5 and +7 necks at ~60 > nothing 'till 70's > ! Ancient & sea torques at 70+.

Right now the pcc is also so expensive that really, if you're level 33 you have basically no chance to get it without farming your ass off for months. If there was a +4 acc neck instead (and +5 HQ?) that costed much less, I think we'd see an overall improvement in player's gears compared to now, even though the pcc beats them.

O kote could be +5~10 attack too, and it could go up by +2 attack until 75 and Bando's that give +22. The improvement would be more than the +2 attack per 30+ levels we have now, too, and the price would be lower at 34 (and thus more mnk/sam/nins could get them).

Right now the pieces only mitigate the suck for rich people.. basically those leveling their 2nd+ job and have the funds to get those O kotes and Pcc's, but that still leaves maaany people who can't afford them and thus suck even more than if there was a acc+4 neck around that they could afford.

But you're right about the mechanics. There's more than only gear progression wrong about lower levels, although I think they're both pretty messed up. If the mechanics were 'fixed', the problems of progression wouldn't be as severe, but they'd still be around most likely.

I think you're forgetting your roots or you haven't played since release, which is fine. Players today are spoiled beyond belief in terms of the narrow and specific boundaries of FFXI. Once upon a time if players wanted an item like PCC, or Okote (and to a point this is still true today) they WOULD camp the nm day in and out until they got it and much like salvage drops today there was a sense of accomplishment when you got the drop.

Again, it doesn't encompass all players but I don't think it should. I WANT there to be some separation between the casual and the hardcore. If you can't afford PCC you can BC for it, if you get unlucky in the BC you can camp it. It all depends on how badly you want something and how much effort you're willing to put in to get it.

I can pretty much assure you though that if you're on your second job you will get the drop from Argus before you farm even 500k and you will have earned a valuable piece of gear that will stay with you throughout the rest of FFXI.

I'll say it again, players today, especially new players, are spoiled. If FFXI was a different game, or FFXI was WoW, things would work differently. FFXI is FFXI is FFXI and I know that regardless of the price or time invested, if you camp and get the drop from argus for yourself you will feel good about it and you will be happy you did it.

I do not subscribe to the theory that we should cater to the majority in an MMO because you know what? I'm pretty sure that according to the recent census the majority of FFXI players log in 1-3 hours a week. What is supposed to happen? Surprise PCCs in delivery boxes? I've been playing this game for a long time, I've done shit the hard way, I've gotten lucky, I've sunk a lot of hours into menial fucking tasks that I can never get back and along the way I've watched it all get nerfed and dumbed down and I think I've taken it pretty well.

Even with the scaling down of difficulty in FFXI I'm happy I've worked for my accomplishments and put in the effort, and camped, and farmed, and I just honestly have no sympathy for the people who want everything handed to them. Should their be intermediaries? Yes, undoubtedly. But SE has already ruined at least 3 crafts, countless events, areas, and NMs all to cater to the more casual and you know what? If 6 people on a server have Dring and I'm not one of them I think somehow I'll live and get over it. Will I still camp KB? You bet your ass I will. Do I want a Dring at the expense of every tom, dick and harry getting one? No.

They broke the curve and put shit in the wrong places. They made ridiculous mobs to make up for it instead of instancing events or adding more random-as-fuck mobs (although I <3 Lambton worm) but I think you're totally off-base bringing money into this. I'm one relic deep and going for another and I, despite being in a merc LS, despite having 100 crafts, despite selling Byakko's Haidates on the side, despite doing ENMs every time my timers are up, still farm for some extra gil on the side and I'm happy to do it.

Know your roots, and if you don't, find some. Camping sucks, farming sucks, but if you don't like it then go play FFXIV and hope it's better, and when it isn't, go play WoW. I enjoy FFXI for all of its faults and I do feel a deep sense of accomplishment for a lot of the things I've done. I don't think I'd feel that way if everything was like a platform game (go here, open chest, have strongest weapon in game, bye.)