Post concerning "Tanaka Producer inteview on Latest Famitsu regarding FF11" Interview pg.4

[Hyan]

I think you're forgetting your roots or you haven't played since release, which is fine. Players today are spoiled beyond belief in terms of the narrow and specific boundaries of FFXI. Once upon a time if players wanted an item like PCC, or Okote (and to a point this is still true today) they WOULD camp the nm day in and out until they got it and much like salvage drops today there was a sense of accomplishment when you got the drop.

Again, it doesn't encompass all players but I don't think it should. I WANT there to be some separation between the casual and the hardcore. If you can't afford PCC you can BC for it, if you get unlucky in the BC you can camp it. It all depends on how badly you want something and how much effort you're willing to put in to get it.

I can pretty much assure you though that if you're on your second job you will get the drop from Argus before you farm even 500k and you will have earned a valuable piece of gear that will stay with you throughout the rest of FFXI.

I'll say it again, players today, especially new players, are spoiled. If FFXI was a different game, or FFXI was WoW, things would work differently. FFXI is FFXI is FFXI and I know that regardless of the price or time invested, if you camp and get the drop from argus for yourself you will feel good about it and you will be happy you did it.

I do not subscribe to the theory that we should cater to the majority in an MMO because you know what? I'm pretty sure that according to the recent census the majority of FFXI players log in 1-3 hours a week. What is supposed to happen? Surprise PCCs in delivery boxes? I've been playing this game for a long time, I've done shit the hard way, I've gotten lucky, I've sunk a lot of hours into menial fucking tasks that I can never get back and along the way I've watched it all get nerfed and dumbed down and I think I've taken it pretty well.

Even with the scaling down of difficulty in FFXI I'm happy I've worked for my accomplishments and put in the effort, and camped, and farmed, and I just honestly have no sympathy for the people who want everything handed to them. Should their be intermediaries? Yes, undoubtedly. But SE has already ruined at least 3 crafts, countless events, areas, and NMs all to cater to the more casual and you know what? If 6 people on a server have Dring and I'm not one of them I think somehow I'll live and get over it. Will I still camp KB? You bet your ass I will. Do I want a Dring at the expense of every tom, dick and harry getting one? No.

They broke the curve and put shit in the wrong places. They made ridiculous mobs to make up for it instead of instancing events or adding more random-as-fuck mobs (although I <3 Lambton worm) but I think you're totally off-base bringing money into this. I'm one relic deep and going for another and I, despite being in a merc LS, despite having 100 crafts, despite selling Byakko's Haidates on the side, despite doing ENMs every time my timers are up, still farm for some extra gil on the side and I'm happy to do it.

Know your roots, and if you don't, find some. Camping sucks, farming sucks, but if you don't like it then go play FFXIV and hope it's better, and when it isn't, go play WoW. I enjoy FFXI for all of its faults and I do feel a deep sense of accomplishment for a lot of the things I've done. I don't think I'd feel that way if everything was like a platform game (go here, open chest, have strongest weapon in game, bye.)

Yeeeah, but how about making it so the difficulty and work you have to do, scales as you level. Now it's smooth run 'till 30's, then BOOM PCC O kote Jujitsu gi 2x woodsman brown belt.. then 40-55~ is easy sailing again..

The piece will be valuable even if it was lvl75. Pcc would still be awesome at 75, and it would stay awesome 'till the end of the game, too. I think you're missing the point which is not about 'working hard' but more about scaling the work in a way that is more fair for the players.

They'd still have to work for the acc+4/5 neck, acc+3 ring, +10 attack kote, but it wouldn't be as hard to get as if you were lvl75 in endgame looking for best of the best stuff. Still tough, but not "75" tough. As it should be, tbh.

And the fact that Argus and Mee deggi can only be soloed by lvl50 jobs. That's the earliest level you could even try to get it like that, which is 15 levels after the piece becomes available.

I completely disagree that if items that belonged to the level cap both difficulty and stat wise were actually changed there, the game would become easier. It is unfair that a level 34 player has to compete with 75's about getting a piece of equipment that is good for his level.

[BerenTebogo]

You forget though that this game was made with the idea in mind that people would ALWAYS be doing things in groups. That's why it took so long for solo-content to come out.

Now yes, this is silly. But SE intended groups of players to team up to defeat these rare monsters! Which brings us back to bad mechanics of 1 drop from long spawn for multiple people.

[Hyan]

Good thing SE has moved away from such systems, not likely to see it in XIV (at least in such a scope)

[ronin sparthos]

One has to ask what SE was thinking when they developed NMs like Argus in a group-oriented FFXI of 2004.

You put one great drop on the NM, design it in such a way that it can take days to pop and then expect this group to reward one single person for the grueling effort? Did they know nothing of human nature? The whole ordeal could be likened to putting 3 people in a jail cell, starving them for a few days then setting out one bowl of soup and expecting them to work out some complex way of sharing where everyone ends up happy. Did they not expect some people to use others? For people to snap and do something they otherwise wouldn't under better conditions?

Thank goodness someone woke up at SE and placed such a rare item into a BCNM where people could actually get a "fair" chance for the effort put in. The same goes for a few other high-calibur weapons and armor that were previously only campable.

The main problem SE has to overcome is rewarding groups for effort taken as a group. If an NM requires 18 to be killed and only 2-3 people are going to be rewarded, at the least give the other 15 some form of credit that goes toward a reward of their own.

This way people don't feel used and the system promotes fairness among members of a linkshell and we avoid those "bitch i ninja'd your ebody! lol /servertransfer" moments that give us all a laugh but show how fucked up the loot systems are in many parts of XI.

ZNM shows that SE has the potential to fix the fairness problem and hopefully future endeavors will follow the ZNM pattern. It's hard to tell with SE though, they like to take one step forward (ZNM) and then two steps back (Sandworm).

[Hyan]

Well, even sandworm is a step or 2 forward compared to Kings. When compared to other endgame events though, the whole hnm system lags behind.

[ronin sparthos]

Well, even sandworm is a step or 2 forward compared to Kings. When compared to other endgame events though, the whole hnm system lags behind.

The claiming methods perhaps but I have never seen a 3-king mob drop nothing. Sandworm instances will frequently drop nothing and even the Lambton Worm instance has a chance of dropping nothing. Why? It's beyond me.

I don't think ive ever seen Nid/Aspid/KB drop nothing at all. Hell, KB has a failsafe Pixie Earring drop if all else fails in his lootpool.

Sandworm has good things going for him in the Doomvoid "fun" (you never know what you'll get) and the change of settings where he spawns but the instance rewards fail to deliver too many times and the odds of walking away with rehashed loot (and not even the good kind) is just way too high.

It's hard to believe that Sandworm (with doomvoid action) and Dark Ixion came out around the same time because they take drastically different approaches to rewarding the alliance.

[BerenTebogo]

The claiming methods perhaps but I have never seen a 3-king mob drop nothing. Sandworm instances will frequently drop nothing and even the Lambton Worm instance has a chance of dropping nothing. Why? It's beyond me.

I don't think ive ever seen Nid/Aspid/KB drop nothing at all. Hell, KB has a failsafe Pixie Earring drop if all else fails in his lootpool.

Sandworm has good things going for him in the Doomvoid "fun" (you never know what you'll get) and the change of settings where he spawns but the instance rewards fail to deliver too many times and the odds of walking away with rehashed loot (and not even the good kind) is just way too high.

It's hard to believe that Sandworm (with doomvoid action) and Dark Ixion came out around the same time because they take drastically different approaches to rewarding the alliance.

Andvaranauts, Ehands, Dfeet, Elegs, Heavy Cuirass are just really well colored nothings.

[Hyan]

I dunno how sw should be compared to KB/Nid/Aspid.. I mean for every one of those 3 HNM's you're going to see at least 3 lower versions of the same mob..

Even if you can only see one sw mob per day out of 4, you at least don't have to deal with some lower versions of the same mob with shitty drops, right?

[ronin sparthos]

Andvaranauts, Ehands, Dfeet, Elegs, Heavy Cuirass are just really well colored nothings.

True, but you had a step forward with Dark Ixion (horn is shit, tail make some speed shoes) and then a step back with Doomvoid instance NMs.

At the least there was a time when people wanted some of those drops mentioned and they were obsoleted over time. I dont think there was ever a time that Serket Shields and Triple Daggers were in huge demand.

[Thiefami]

One has to ask what SE was thinking when they developed NMs like Argus in a group-oriented FFXI of 2004.

You put one great drop on the NM, design it in such a way that it can take days to pop and then expect this group to reward one single person for the grueling effort? Did they know nothing of human nature? The whole ordeal could be likened to putting 3 people in a jail cell, starving them for a few days then setting out one bowl of soup and expecting them to work out some complex way of sharing where everyone ends up happy.

It could be viewed as promoting team work in that you will return to help your friend get the desired piece. Instead greedy players turned it into what it is now, everybody out for themselves. Where I can agree in the area an incredibly tough HNM that spawns only once a day and requires multitudes of people should reward more than 1 or 2 people, it should have the CHANCE to reward atleast half of the alliance working toward the common goal.

Though you will as you know fight battles many many times before you get what you want and if it all dropped close to 50% no one will appreciate it, incredibly tough HNMs will get old fast. I noticed though if youre in a non greedy linkshell and have selfless friends and cohorts you can still attain the gear that you want (See sky). This content has been dead to me since I got it, i hate sky, everyone i know has everything in sky, but when someone joins our linkshell and needs a haidate we line up to get pop items and fight till he gets it.

[Gergall]

I dont think there was ever a time that Serket Shields and Triple Daggers were in huge demand.

Triple dagger was never the best dagger at it's level, but there was a time many years ago when most people didn't know any better and it was considered to be quite valuable.

This weapon was obsoleted by the spread of knowledge.

[DAKPluto]

SE: New Avatars will be introduced in the next update.

Two weeks after the update...

SMN: The job is teh sucks, wut we need iz moar avatarz!!11!1!!?

Only because a large number of SMNs are morons that think somehow a new toy is gonna solve the issues around the job.

I don't care about new avatars...I wanna start fixing the 9 I have already.

[Indalecia]

I demand a 30 second summoning animation for every avatar I summon that the entire zone locks down and is forced to watch.

Then I do 99,999 damage when using Poison Nails...and it scales from there.

[Silenka]

I demand a 30 second summoning animation for every avatar I summon that the entire zone locks down and is forced to watch.

Then I do 99,999 damage when using Poison Nails...and it scales from there.

Yes! We dream the same dream!

Honestly though, summoning is supposed to be heretic because of how all-powerful it is, and yet SMN is one of the weaker jobs damage-wise in the game...

Kinda mad that SE keeps saying 'new avatars, new avatars' and haven't released them yet (and won't be releasing it this update either, when it was a really good time for it to be), but I do hold out hope that when it finally is implemented, the new style of summoning will complement or fix the current one.

[frodnonnag]

Yes! We dream the same dream!

Honestly though, summoning is supposed to be heretic because of how all-powerful it is, and yet SMN is one of the weaker jobs damage-wise in the game...

Kinda mad that SE keeps saying 'new avatars, new avatars' and haven't released them yet (and won't be releasing it this update either, when it was a really good time for it to be), but I do hold out hope that when it finally is implemented, the new style of summoning will complement or fix the current one.

summoner damage as is is fine, considering the boost to group 2 merits, the +skill is acc patch, and new(ish) gear like acp7 earrings, redingote, karura hachigane, and the like. we don't need any new modifications to damage pacts, just more players willing to gear up more than just AF/relic and yyr with +mp gear.

the only thing i see summoner lacking as it is now is a second buff to be used for DDs in merits and endgame. we have hastega which is on par with normal haste, but the options for the second buff are either forced situational with ecliptic howl, or too damn short and weak like crimson howl.

[Corrderio]

Good thing SE has moved away from such systems, not likely to see it in XIV (at least in such a scope)

Hopefully we never see a king system like that again. Though I got to admit I'd love to see them try this on XI also, I can at least dream they'd fix it.

[BRP]

So basically a Warcraft type game as an MMORTS rather than a MMORPG? Or are you talking more in a Final Fantasy Tactics type way? Perhaps a combination?

Final Fantasy XI and etc are already MMORTS. Again, best to look at that thread or we will be having flashbacks.

I don't think you HAVE to make a game where you control several characters in order to be a deep RTS. It is probably best in the long run because more characters = more options.

What place does any level of arbitrary gimmickry and sparkle have? You say that story doesn't add depth

I wouldn't call "story" a gimmick. A gimmick would have to involve the mechanics. A trick that does not improve it. ie: the Wii's wiimote.

Story is something else entirely. It can be seen as two things: aesthetics and the ingredient for a non-RPG. What role do I see Story having? Setting up the mood, enhance the experience, like with all aesthetics. So you'll want a story that makes you feel manly and hyped, not one that makes you feel like you are watching a movie. Cutscenes for example suck, but are acceptable in small amounts. Cutscenes and story would both be fat, but in small thin portions it can be a decent addition to overall experience. Depth/mechanics will still be the deciding factor and if you have more fat than meat, then shit is getting messed up.

But to me what you're proposing is basically a very over-developed... chess.

This is what we are playing and will continue to play until we die out. Although you can credit a game that predates Chess or ones that predate that. Maybe something monkeys played. (Probably grab-ass!)

Think about tic-tac-toe. If both players play a perfect game every time you'll always draw and thus it's dull as hell.

This is ONLY because Tic-Tac-Toe is a very, very simple game. It is garbage. Go is a game without luck and it is one of the deepest games out there(computers are unable to master it, yet.) It is also, by no coincidence, one of the most entertaining and popular.

I think the point is that "luck" isn't even worth pointing out. You will be betting/gambling in games with no luck. Not unlike Poker. That doesn't mean this is luck. It is perfectly under the control of a player.

For better or worse I also think that a game without extrinsic rewards is ultimately unfulfilling. Sure, when I was 9 I could play through some mindless platformer and be moderately happen to get to the end and get absolutely no cutscene for my desperate memorization of every move in the entire game it took to get there... perhaps that was enough, but I think we've evolved to need extrinsic rewards and while I definitely think it could be argued we've done this to a fault (silly achievements in every game under the sun) largely I think this is a good thing to have. We don't need to live in a place where games are the equivalent of Pong without a score. That's dull.

This whole paragraph...

There is not a single correct idea within it. Toss it away.

You speak of rewards within the game. And those are useless. At least in the way we are presenting them here(as rewards/accomplishments.)

If you were talking about intrinsic reward, which is to say true accomplishment, then you wouldn't be so wrong. A game that doesn't challenge the player is boring. So a mindless platformer is mindless because it lacks challenge(depth.) It is boring. You were stupid when you were 9, so maybe mindless isn't enough for you now that you are older.

Pong without a score would be dull because Pong is dull. Who the fuck plays Pong?

Life doesn't have a score* and perfectly simulating reality is the (unobtainable) goal of videogame development.

If intrinsic rewards were so unimportant then games like Street Fighter, Starcraft, Chess, Basketball, and almost every game in existence before videogames wouldn't be played outside money/bounty competitions. Without that setting these games have NO extrinsic rewards.

Finally: People who "play" for extrinsic rewards are not playing at all. They are working. They are employees. And you would get paid with shit, so if you don't find memorizing shit fun maybe you should get a better job. McDonalds is hiring.

And what do you get when you combine this with the MMO addicts? Slaves. "Help! SE is oppressing us! Where are my BLM Updatesss!?"

*: This thread is now about Religion.

[TacoTaru]

BRP reminds me of a friend of mine who champions UO (pre all it's expansions) as the one and only MMO worth playing due to the fact that the game had so little fluff and senseless add-ins.

[BRP]

But I love fluff!

[Gergall]

New question, what are the fluffiest things in FFXI? And I don't mean the most fluffy things (like Moogles), but rather, the things most full of fluff (like ACP).