Formula for comparing +haste to +accuracy

[FailureMidgard]

Well, again, that's for a pretty selective range of "normal." Essentially, you are talking about situations in which:

a) pizza caps your ACC (i.e. not HNM or dyn-xarc)

HNM is irrelevant, it falls into 4 categories:
1. Meditate/WS only. TP gear is pretty useless.
2. Still accuracy capped (this is without a doubt possible with Pizza, depending on the "HNM" or what you consider an HNM I guess. Definitely on some Jailers).
3. Hate capped. If you are a strong melee, you should easily be capping yourself on hate way too fast. I can't go all out on JoL or I will pull hate 100% of the time. Pretty irrelevant to optimize stats, when I'm just as well off leaving gear slots empty.
4. Zerg, usually have 2hr 2x Madrigal, more likely this is #2.

Also, I accuracy cap in Dyna-Xarc with Pizza...I just hit for insanely low #s...

b) you are not meriting on colibri

Huh? The only time I'd use Ace's is on Colibri in a no-food build. Spamming sushi + WTurban is better with a Pole build for sam. Pizza should cap "normal" melee at MJSP (it does for me). You'll still miss due to blinks, flashes, etc.

c) you don't mind using 3h food for a ~30min activity (limbus, ein)

Sure, but Pizza isn't -that- expensive. Admittedly, I'll use meat in Ein at times, but if I'm worried about my parse, or us possibly timing out (I'm not really) or I know I'm doing another event after (Ein, followed by Limbus), I will use Pizza.

If you are in a situation where pizza doesn't cap your ACC, it seems like STR+4/ACC+7 in exchange for haste+1% is a pretty good deal (relative to other +accuracy slots you can trade out).

Which is why Ace's is popular. I agree fully, I just disagree on there being much in this game Pizza won't cap your accuracy on (And sorry, I'm assuming merited/well geared 2h DD...but also, using a PCC over a sea Torque/etc is a better tradeoff than using an Ace's over a Turban).

[Pearlsea]

Until capped on either 2 acc = 1% haste. This is how I did my practical world of warcraft theory crafting. % of damage increases are interchangeable. Double attack could be included too, but not crits because they do not generate extra tp.

how can I explain that without complicated math? Lets compare the increase in white damage and the decrease in the time it takes to get 100 tp

Theoretical situation 1 hit = 25 tp, base miss rate 25%. leg options are 50 acc or 25% haste. Weapon delay and damage is 1. The common assumption is that 2 acc = 1% hit rate.

Accuracy legs:
You hit every time
4 secconds to get to 100tp (1tpps)
Your melee strikes do 1 dps. (4swings/4secconds)

Haste legs:
You hit 3/4 the time
You hit 4 out of 5 times, so on average it takes you 5 swings to hit 100tp but you swing 25% faster
(4 strikes/5 secconds(25%haste)) = 1 tpps. 4 secconds to 100 tp
Your melee strikes do 1 dps (4 strikes/5 secconds(25%haste))

The formating blows, I'll see if I can edit it later, but...

2 acc = 1 haste

mini edit, I know the max hit rate is 95%, I just wanted to work with easy numbers.

[Jojojo]

I made this formula to prove to myself that swift belt is better than life belt in most situations, back when I didn't have it.

The DPS Function
C * (R+r) / [1 - (X+x)/100]
R: Hit rate before adding piece
r: Hit rate bonus from piece
X: Haste without piece
x: Haste from piece
C: Multiplier for everything else: pDIF, crit rate, delay of the weapon, etc.

Pretty much the same thing as Midgard's.

If you are in a situation where pizza doesn't cap your ACC, it seems like STR+4/ACC+7 in exchange for haste+1% is a pretty good deal (relative to other +accuracy slots you can trade out).

If you compare the DPS function for Ace's Helm to that of the Turban at a headless haste = 40 with march and haste, you end up with Ace's Helm being better as long as your hit rate is less than 192%. So yeah, if your acc isn't capped then ace's is better without question.

[Jojojo]

2 acc = 1 haste

This is wrong. If this were the case then Swift Belt would only barely beat life belt, but swift blows it out of the water. This is because the damage boost from +haste is exponential while the damage boost from accuracy is linear.

The more haste you have, the better additional haste is. More accuracy gives the same effect no matter how much you already have, until you reach the cap. Since we usually have haste and march, the difference is pretty substantial.

[pchan]

As usual, you are wrong. Neither accuracy nor haste does anything except net you more landed hits in a timeframe.

I'm not wrong when i'm saying haste and accuracy increase Ws frequency (which you are denying), I was just meaning to say that if you want to give what % increase those stats do to your TOTAL damage you need to have access to weapon damage and WS damage, which the OP has no interest into.

[Spider-Dan]

Until capped on either 2 acc = 1% haste. This is how I did my practical world of warcraft theory crafting. % of damage increases are interchangeable. Double attack could be included too, but not crits because they do not generate extra tp.

how can I explain that without complicated math? Lets compare the increase in white damage and the decrease in the time it takes to get 100 tp

Your extremely straightforward and easy-to-understand rule has one small problem: it's completely wrong. That was the entire reason I needed a thread like this to determine a more complex formula with the subtle advantage of actually being correct.

Notice that in the very first example that Failure gave (@ 50% haste/90% accuracy), haste+1% = ACC+3.66. As +haste grows, this number (ACC) becomes larger and larger.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm not wrong when i'm saying haste and accuracy increase Ws frequency (which you are denying), I was just meaning to say that if you want to give what % increase those stats do to your TOTAL damage you need to have access to weapon damage and WS damage, which the OP has no interest into.

No you fucking idiot, I am not saying that haste and accuracy don't increase WS frequency. I am saying they both increase WS frequency BY THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT THAT THEY INCREASE WHITE DAMAGE BY.

1% hitrate increase at 90% hitrate base increases your white damage by 1/90 and your WS frequency by 1/90. In other words, it increases all of your damage (okay, to be technical, it doesn't up your Meditate WS damage) by 1/90.

Thus,

To the OP, the relation haste/hitrate would need to take into account the increase in WS frequency given by accuracy and haste ; for this you would need an accurate knowledge of Ws DMG and melee DMG which will vary a lot by jobs.

is 100% wrong, because you do not need to take into account anything more than my original formulas had in them. You do not need any knowledge of WS damage, or the WS/TP split, because haste and accuracy both have the same affect on both parts of damage. If we were comparing attack while TPing, you would be right.

However, since you are fucking stupid (and illiterate), you are wrong.

[pchan]

No you fucking idiot, I am not saying that haste and accuracy don't increase WS frequency. I am saying they both increase WS frequency BY THE EXACT SAME AMOUNT THAT THEY INCREASE WHITE DAMAGE BY.

1% hitrate increase at 90% hitrate base increases your white damage by 1/90 and your WS frequency by 1/90. In other words, it increases all of your damage (okay, to be technical, it doesn't up your Meditate WS damage) by 1/90.

Thus,

is 100% wrong, because you do not need to take into account anything more than my original formulas had in them. You do not need any knowledge of WS damage, or the WS/TP split, because haste and accuracy both have the same affect on both parts of damage. If we were comparing attack while TPing, you would be right.

However, since you are fucking stupid (and illiterate), you are wrong.

Does your formula work for general melee or just for 2H melee/single handing melee. If I go
WAR dual wielding Ridill and merc kris or mnk with faith barghnaks, accuracy affect every hit while haste only affect "rounds". Accuracy could just artificially increase you melee damage while still maintaining the same number of rounds, therefore the Ws frequency would be different in both case even if your formula makes them equal.

[Suiram]

If you guys don't mind me trying something out here. Ever since this website came out I wanted to see if it'd be useful in helping people with comparisons like this (I had envisioned some INT vs. MAB comparison but I think it should work here, too). For the OP's original problem:

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=(100-OLDHASTE)%2F(100-NEWHASTE)+%3D+1+%2B+x%2F(2*HITRATE)+solve+for+x

replacing OLDHASTE with the old haste value ("30" for 30% for instance), NEWHASTE likewise with the new haste value, and HITRATE with the parsed hit rate (again, all whole number percentages, not the decimal values). The value it returns should be the accuracy that the OP was asking for. It could be improved in a few ways, the haste could be done in the appropriate 1024ths, it won't give the correct comparison at the caps, and of course it assumes the current accepted model for accuracy that is in question, but figured it might be interesting to see anyway.

Edit: NEWHASTE being the new total haste if you were to add the haste piece, and not simply the value on the piece itself.

[Raen Ryong]

Haste 9 => 10 (1 / [100 - 10]) is the same as going from 90 => 91% accuracy (1/90).

Say you have an 100 delay weapon for simplicity and so 9% haste gives a delay of 91 and 10% haste gives a delay of 90.

At a time when both delays have swung equal number of times (90 * 91 ~ lowest common denominator stuff), the 91% accuracy weapon with 9% haste has swung 90 times with 91% accuracy,

so 90 * 0.91 = number of swings = 81.9

The 90% accuracy weapon with 10% haste has swung 91 times with 90% accuracy,

so 91 * 0.9 = number of swings = 81.9

Therefore Haste 9% => 10% produces the same increase in number of swings as Accuracy 90% => 91%. Since they both produce the same number of swings, it follows that they both increase TP gain by the same rate and hence increase WS frequency by the same rate. Therefore, haste and accuracy when equal affect WS frequency equally.

[FailureMidgard]

Does your formula work for general melee or just for 2H melee/single handing melee. If I go
WAR dual wielding Ridill and merc kris or mnk with faith barghnaks, accuracy affect every hit while haste only affect "rounds". Accuracy could just artificially increase you melee damage while still maintaining the same number of rounds, therefore the Ws frequency would be different in both case even if your formula makes them equal.

My formula works for dual wield, ridill, soboro, etc.

Every weapon or weapon combination averages X swings/round. That X is a constant for any given setup, and will cancel out if you actually add it to my equation. Whereas haste gave the 2hander 1 extra swing per Y seconds, it gives the dualwielder 2 extra swings, and the person averaging 2.6 swings per round 2.6 extra swings. Haste and accuracy both accomplish the same end, regardless.

Seriously, I don't think you have ever once been right when you posted something on these forums, and you are most definitely wrong now.

Stop trying to post and call me wrong when you have no clue what you are posting. You're as bad as Ahlah.

[pchan]

Every weapon or weapon combination averages X swings/round. That X is a constant for any given setup, and will cancel out if you actually add it to my equation. Whereas haste gave the 2hander 1 extra swing per Y seconds, it gives the dualwielder 2 extra swings, and the person averaging 2.6 swings per round 2.6 extra swings. Haste and accuracy both accomplish the same end, regardless.

Wrong, depending on the accuracy added, accuracy will only increase 1 melee hit or a fraction of that during the Y seconds, while you need 2 hits to save a round in case of dualwield. Your relation acc/haste will be all the more crap the the number of hit / melee rounds is High and the accuracy is close to cap, for exemple single wielding kraken club or using faith barnaghs with /war where accuracy will have little impact to the number of actual rounds (4 rounds almost always) and you will always WS with a lot more than the 100 TP needed, in which case haste is a lot superior.

You're as bad as Ahlah.

You seem to run quickly out of arguments.

[Shamaya]

When I do this kind of calculation I do just stick with the 2acc = 1% hit rate, because I have nothing else to use.

(New HitRate) / (Old HitRate) = x
(Old Delay) / (New Delay) = y
if x > y, "go with the acc"
if y > x, "go w/ the haste"

So if your hit rate is 80% and you add 10acc, then going with the 2:1 'rule' you get a new rate of 85%. 0.85 / 0.8 = x = 1.0625

If your total haste (songs, gear, etc) is 40% and you add 5%, you get (1 - 0.4) / (1 - 0.45) or 0.6 / 0.55 = ~1.091

So for this, at these settings, it's "go w/ the haste."


I'm trying to solve problems regarding SA/TA sets (here: shamayaasura: Haste V. Dmg for SA/TA :: N.Legs for Mercy ), but I am running into an excel problem where I can't seem to make an if statement involving both "greater than" and "less than," ie "if '0 < x < 10' then x", etc. If anyone can help me with this a PM would be a great uplifter.

[Raen Ryong]

KC average of 3.82 according to otherwiki, let's call it 4 for sake of simplicity. KC has 264 delay. 90% => 91% acc is equal in terms of an increase in damage to 9% => 10% haste.

KC with 9% haste = 264 * 0.91 = 240.24 delay.
KC with 10% haste = 264 * 0.90 = 237.6 delay.

At the point of delay (240.24 * 237.6), 9% haste KC has swung 237.6 times and 10% haste KC has swung 240.24 times (yes I know the fractions are weird).

So,

9% haste KC has 237.6 x 4 = 950.4 swings before accuracy; with 91% accuracy = 864.864 total swings

10% haste KC has 240.24 x 4 = 960.96 swings before accuracy; with 90% accuracy = 864.864 total swings

Multihit or not, when the impact of adding accuracy equals the impact of adding haste according to the above formulae, the gains in both TP damage and WS frequency are equal provided by either haste or accuracy.

[pchan]

KC average of 3.82 according to otherwiki, let's call it 4 for sake of simplicity. KC has 264 delay. 90% => 91% acc is equal in terms of an increase in damage to 9% => 10% haste.

KC with 9% haste = 264 * 0.91 = 240.24 delay.
KC with 10% haste = 264 * 0.90 = 237.6 delay.

At the point of delay (240.24 * 237.6), 9% haste KC has swung 237.6 times and 10% haste KC has swung 240.24 times (yes I know the fractions are weird).

So,

9% haste KC has 237.6 x 4 = 950.4 swings before accuracy; with 91% accuracy = 864.864 total swings

10% haste KC has 240.24 x 4 = 960.96 swings before accuracy; with 90% accuracy = 864.864 total swings

Multihit or not, when the impact of adding accuracy equals the impact of adding haste according to the above formulae, the gains in both TP damage and WS frequency are equal provided by either haste or accuracy.

I missed the part where you took the # of round to reach 100 tp into account. You math is correct ... if you auto-attack and never stops the melee flow with weaponskills (or equivalently you assume you always TP at 100% tp..) in which case going from 90% to 91% acc exactly increases the totla damage by 91/90=+1.11%, while in practice it'll be less.

[Spider-Dan]

Because I'm all about the giving back:

http://venomweb.150m.com/ffxi/haste_vs_acc.xls

[Spider-Dan]

I missed the part where you took the # of round to reach 100 tp into account.

Probably because that's completely irrelevant. It is no more "missing" # of hits to 100 TP than it is "missing" fSTR, pDIF, or crit rate.

The purpose of the original question was to determine which increases your net hits landed over time more. That's it.

[FailureMidgard]

I'm sorry pchan, but you are wrong. It isn't even worth responding to you anymore. You're either a troll, or the dumbest fucking idiot who thinks they are right that posts on these forums. Really, I'm not sure why the admins let you stay around when they banned Ahlah.

In any case, you are once again incorrect. Clearly, it doesn't matter what I say, because you don't care about math or logic, and I don't think I have ever once seen you admit you were incorrect, even though you are in every single thread you post in.

Since I'm done responding to pchan, this is also going to be my last post in this thread, unless someone else says something I wish to respond to, but basically Raen's math is correct, and you have to look at these things as an average. You can't try to make a perfect world where you need 2 swings every round for exactly 10 rounds to hit 100 tp, and you will get that with your current accuracy of X. Ya, sometimes the extra acc will do nothing. Sometimes extra haste will do nothing. Any argument that tries to use that is flawed, because both have the -chance- to do something, which over any extended period or parse, will make a difference.

[CDF]

Unless I'm mistaken, even the Magic Accuracy testing was subject to a lot of debate. A JP blogger posted data that resulted from numerous castings on elementals. Another blogger then took the data and made a bunch of general observations.

While the information was increadibly useful in beginning to understand how mg acc/int/elemental skill/HQ Staves interact, it left a lot open to debate.

Only one monster type @ level 78 was used and for each batch of testing, only 5 Elemental Skill values were used. HQ Staves could be a static +Mg Accuracy or directly added to Mg Acc land rate. 5 values of Elemental Skill is not enough to show if the function is linear with only 1 inflection point. Even dINT was only tested at a few values and could change a lot.

I'm not trying to belittle the experiments or the data that resulted. I think the information is increadibly useful and gigantic step in the right direction toward understanding how our equipment works. I just think it's a bad idea to take what was learned, fit it for all situations, and follow it by faith.

Moar tests need to be done on varying levels of different mobs with a wider range of elemental skill before we can be more confidant in applying a general rule/formula to all situations.

Obviously not much interest that 2 acc = 1 hit rate appears to break down at the 50% mark and at lower levels because very few people are interested in idle "model building." So this kind of fake concern about the macc testing is kind of annoying especially when decisions about meleeing are based on much flimsier or nonexistent evidence.

Minimizing the macc data as a "step in the right direction" is absurd when it's a reasonably solid foundation for people finally to discard unfounded notions such as "1 skill = 0.9 macc above 200," confirm (or refute) previously held ideas about accuracy and INT, that elemental staves even provide a multiplicative % bonus (if it did, then why don't changes in elemental skill in the presence of a staff reflect that?), and recognize this strange 50% accuracy (landing rate) threshold as a confounding factor in previous tests.

True, the limited range of elemental magic skill leaves unanswered the question of what may or may not happen at higher levels. The range of dINT above the identified critical point is also limited (10-30). But it is absurd to argue that conclusions from a single mob cannot be generalized to other mobs. This is not comparing the efficacy of [insert drug here] in adults to that in children.

Also, the distinction between static macc vs. direction addition to landing rate is practically meaningless unless there is some reason for the distinction I am not considering atm. You would have a marginally better case for arguing that the magic accuracy vs. landing rate was not adequately explored (if you think 1 macc from a piece of equipment is somehow not +1% landing rate, for example) or that the results are not necessarily applicable to other magic types.

[Yugl]

I'm sorry pchan, but you are wrong. It isn't even worth responding to you anymore. You're either a troll, or the dumbest fucking idiot who thinks they are right that posts on these forums. Really, I'm not sure why the admins let you stay around when they banned Ahlah.

Ahlah is his own league. Don't even try to compare him to someone else unless it's senseiFF11 (Closest comparison by far).