Dynamis rant(well partially)

[terranova]

2 things happened to our shell today..

1. A run was ganked from us, aka we scheduled sandy and that was taken by a shell that didn't schedule it at all, so we had to do jueno.

2. One of our members lotted on AF when he didn't specify it and was told to pass and he wouldn't. We kicked him out of the shell and yea he got the drop.

wee dyna drama go~~~

[Katarzyna]

You claim to know a lot about the inner workings of the dynamis shell I'm in Yugl. At least, that's how you come off, but in reality, you're a moron. Here, let me explain why.

You mean he plans on getting another relic after he gets his relic.

No, I believe I already stated that the plans ORIGINALLY were to just get this guy's relic, and in exchange we all get afv2. But over the past 4 months, we've been very successful and have a core group of 30+ member who show up to each and every single run, so instead of dropping the shell, we're continuing. Also, our planned relic I believe is a Mandau, for someone who ISN'T the shellholder and not even a sack. We also have plans for Dreamworld soon. So, you're wrong there. Next?

Sure it doesn't seem that way when you forget he's using you to get relic currency.

Yea, I'm sure it seems like "using" us because he doesn't just buy his gil. This point is moot. You just called out every LS leader and sack holder with a relic and said they used their LS to get them currency. I hardly call it "using" since it's this person's first and possibly only relic, while others have 3 or more on their characters. Next point please?

Look at the two bold points. What's more biased? A system that uses points based on attendance or a system that allows regular members to lot items they can't use because they're a "regular" member.

I've witnessed people who lot on stuff and not get their points deducted, while others lot on stuff that was considered "freelot" and had their points deducted. The people who don't have their points deducted all have one thing in common: They kiss ass. I've also witnessed people who show up to every single run and not spend a single point, yet somehow the LS leader's new BFF that just joined the shell gets to lot a coveted item over them. You can't seriously turn around and say "point systems are never biased" when they very well have the potential of being just that. The point you also seem to be forgetting is that the lots are subject to random, so if you lose you have nothing to blame it on but your shitty luck at a roll.

You also forget the whole "fun factor" of the game.

But hey, I'll let you assume whatever you want. I understand, it's BG. How can someone possibly have fun unless their in one of the top tier linkshells on their servers?! Or have I forgotten that FFXI is srs bizniss and not allowed to be fun? Oh silly me.

[Thorny]

You claim to know a lot about the inner workings of the dynamis shell I'm in Yugl. At least, that's how you come off, but in reality, you're a moron. Here, let me explain why.



No, I believe I already stated that the plans ORIGINALLY were to just get this guy's relic, and in exchange we all get afv2. But over the past 4 months, we've been very successful and have a core group of 30+ member who show up to each and every single run, so instead of dropping the shell, we're continuing. Also, our planned relic I believe is a Mandau, for someone who ISN'T the shellholder and not even a sack. We also have plans for Dreamworld soon. So, you're wrong there. Next?



Yea, I'm sure it seems like "using" us because he doesn't just buy his gil. This point is moot. You just called out every LS leader and sack holder with a relic and said they used their LS to get them currency. I hardly call it "using" since it's this person's first and possibly only relic, while others have 3 or more on their characters. Next point please?




I've witnessed people who lot on stuff and not get their points deducted, while others lot on stuff that was considered "freelot" and had their points deducted. The people who don't have their points deducted all have one thing in common: They kiss ass. I've also witnessed people who show up to every single run and not spend a single point, yet somehow the LS leader's new BFF that just joined the shell gets to lot a coveted item over them. You can't seriously turn around and say "point systems are never biased" when they very well have the potential of being just that. The point you also seem to be forgetting is that the lots are subject to random, so if you lose you have nothing to blame it on but your shitty luck at a roll.

You also forget the whole "fun factor" of the game.

But hey, I'll let you assume whatever you want. I understand, it's BG. How can someone possibly have fun unless their in one of the top tier linkshells on their servers?! Or have I forgotten that FFXI is srs bizniss and not allowed to be fun? Oh silly me.

lol defending sole sponsorship

[Yugl]

No, I believe I already stated that the plans ORIGINALLY were to just get this guy's relic, and in exchange we all get afv2. But over the past 4 months, we've been very successful and have a core group of 30+ member who show up to each and every single run, so instead of dropping the shell, we're continuing. Also, our planned relic I believe is a Mandau, for someone who ISN'T the shellholder and not even a sack. We also have plans for Dreamworld soon. So, you're wrong there. Next?

I didn't even intend to woosh you and look what happened. Looks like it's PMS season for someone.

Yea, I'm sure it seems like "using" us because he doesn't just buy his gil. This point is moot. You just called out every LS leader and sack holder with a relic and said they used their LS to get them currency. I hardly call it "using" since it's this person's first and possibly only relic, while others have 3 or more on their characters. Next point please?

I like how you belittle the value of a relic. First and only relic? I don't know about you, but one relic is one hell of an accomplishment to me. He's using you for the exact reason he made the shell. To get a relic. He's using you to get a relic. Do you comprehend? It's easy to bluff it off by giving armor to members as treats for helping, but in the end, he is using the LS for his relic. I'm sure there are tons of people that would like the opportunity to control an LS for the sake of funding a personal relic. In fact, I've had several friends leave/complain to their EGLSs because they weren't allowed to sponsor runs.

As for your comparison, yes LS leaders and members that complete their relics solely from LS Dynamis runs are using the LS to get a relic. That's why they give tremendous gratitude after they have completed their relics. If I joined a Dynamis LS then funded runs in order to complete a relic, I sure as hell wouldn't deny using them to fund my relic. He used the LS to complete his relic and that's an undeniable fact based on what you've shared.

I've witnessed people who lot on stuff and not get their points deducted, while others lot on stuff that was considered "freelot" and had their points deducted. The people who don't have their points deducted all have one thing in common: They kiss ass. I've also witnessed people who show up to every single run and not spend a single point, yet somehow the LS leader's new BFF that just joined the shell gets to lot a coveted item over them. You can't seriously turn around and say "point systems are never biased" when they very well have the potential of being just that. The point you also seem to be forgetting is that the lots are subject to random, so if you lose you have nothing to blame it on but your shitty luck at a roll.

Newsflash: That's not a point system! By definition, a leader shouldn't choose who gets to lot what. In a point system, the points determine who lots. What you described is not a point system. It's a "Leader dictates" system. It's quite sad you can't distinguish between the two, but that's no problem. We're here to help.

You also forget the whole "fun factor" of the game.

I have fun when people who earned items get them. Don't you?

[Cesaria]

The one thing in dynamis that gets my goat (my shell mostly does a if you want it what level are you and then roughly on attendance from that but generally it comes down to toss ups between level 15 and 16THFs over who has to take the assassin's vest) is people wanting to lot AF2 for a job they're not prepared to bring to dynamis. I don't lot BLM, I hate the fucking job and I'd rather it goes to people who enjoy it - but I still end up BLM for runs while others lot the AF2 for the job yet complain bitterly if they're asked to come BLM instead of dossing about on their WAR for dynamis. Drives me fucking nuts this one - if you want shinies for that job then be prepared to play it FFS.

[Eldelphia]

while others lot the AF2 for the job yet complain bitterly if they're asked to come BLM instead of dossing about on their WAR for dynamis. Drives me fucking nuts this one - if you want shinies for that job then be prepared to play it FFS.

That's exactly the scenario we wanted to avoid. I don't mind people not being prepared to play a certain job in dynamis as long as they don't get accepted into the shell on the basis that they are there to play that job. We actually ask peeps to be up front with it. If you want armour for a job, then you must be prepared to bring it. Don't bring it, you don't get the armour.

I have one guy whose BLM is perpetually 74 now. He hates it. He has PUP, BRD and SMN. He didn't put BLM on his app, he doesn't want BLM relic. He never asks, he never lots. In cities he can come PUP, in Ice and CoP he can come BRD. He's awesome. It works and no one has to feel put upon.

[Argettio]

IMO and experience: Points system or GTFO!

I joined my dynamis shell the day it was formed and worked hard for over 6 months to get access to xarc and to farm the zone, I had an attendance 80+% going 2 times a week (would have been highier if it wasnt for RL).

Now once we had Xarc access and our front page showed lots of drops we got quiet a few new members and a lot wanted RDM, if we ran a 'if you can ware, you can lot' system I would have had to compete against people who have been in the shell less that 2 months in random lots for the Ice land relic.

I don't see how any one can justify that type of system for something as fuild as dynamis. Maybe salvage, where you work as a static and very one has good attendance, you are all friends etc. But most dynamis shells never get more than 75% of their rooster to show up to any given run. So the difference between the time invested by those serious 'core' members and those that come when they feel like it can be massive.

As for not using jobs in dynamis. I have RDM and BLM leveled and I am ALWAYS asked to come on RDM. I have been doing dynamis since before I had BLM, and so I have never taken BLM to dynamis. Not my fault, I would come BLM if asked, but I am not. Does that mean I can't have BLM relic? I would say no, I should be able to lot if I have more points than the BLMs (and this is what our shell allows)

This caused a little stir as some of the newer BLMs didn't like me lotting ahead of them, but I had more points.

So long as the points system isn't epic fail then your right to lot should accurately reflect your contribution.

[zantes]

As for not using jobs in dynamis. I have RDM and BLM leveled and I am ALWAYS asked to come on RDM. I have been doing dynamis since before I had BLM, and so I have never taken BLM to dynamis. Not my fault, I would come BLM if asked, but I am not. Does that mean I can't have BLM relic? I would say no, I should be able to lot if I have more points than the BLMs (and this is what our shell allows)

This caused a little stir as some of the newer BLMs didn't like me lotting ahead of them, but I had more points.

What most people are saying is that you should be willing to come on a job to dynamis that you are wanting gear for. You shouldn't be penalized for not being asked to come BLM as long as people know you're willing to come as BLM.

Myself, I went as WHM pretty much all the time and I got all of my PLD BLM and SAM relic.

[Talint]

The one thing in dynamis that gets my goat (my shell mostly does a if you want it what level are you and then roughly on attendance from that but generally it comes down to toss ups between level 15 and 16THFs over who has to take the assassin's vest) is people wanting to lot AF2 for a job they're not prepared to bring to dynamis. I don't lot BLM, I hate the fucking job and I'd rather it goes to people who enjoy it - but I still end up BLM for runs while others lot the AF2 for the job yet complain bitterly if they're asked to come BLM instead of dossing about on their WAR for dynamis. Drives me fucking nuts this one - if you want shinies for that job then be prepared to play it FFS.

This. This so fucking hard.

[Amastacia]

Why Dynamis annoys me:

- It's not fun or terribly rewarding if you take more than about 20-24 people.
- Small groups tend to be more stable, thus making point systems less useful (especially when the vast majority of the AF is freelotted junk that no one would spend points on).
- There's always someone with more greed than sense.
- The rules can't cover all contingencies.

See also: Why I've been playing RDM since 2004 and have no Chapeau.

I tend to like ~18 people and the old comment [1,2]/win 1 setup, but it has gotten me burned a couple times by people collecting AF for their other jobs, then beginning to comment rare (we saw 0 Chapeaus in about 25-30 consecutive Xarcs) AF because they have nothing else to get.

[S N K]

See also: Why I've been playing RDM since 2004 and have no Chapeau.

Ditto lol

[Drace]

Just to toss in another example of a points system working well...

My dynamis shell has been together since 2004? (right after NA first started getting active in Dynamis) - no re-shells since we first started as an extension of our end game ls that year and decided to make it a public shell. (aka not a drama related reshell)

We do 2 runs a week and keep points separate for both runs. (Lots of EU people on Sunday afternoons that can't make the Wednesday night runs etc, so this keeps the lotting balanced.) The key to points systems is complete openness imo. We update a spreadsheet on our website after every run so every person can see anyones attendance/ points.

Lotting is /seacom based - people need to have the job of lvl to use it to put in /seacom. You can pick 2 jobs, but only lot 1 per run. City AF are open lot to anyone that has been in the ls for 3 runs and has that AF in their /seacom, northlands AF and CoP accessories are point leader lots, and once all of our main tanks got Shadow items, these are also open to anyone on a point leader basis. This sets up a nice system for allowing people new to the shell/ dynamis to get some AF quickly, as well as rewarding long time members with key drops. (This also discourages a lot of people who are just looking to join a shell for something like RDM hat from even applying to our shell, works out rather nicely as we have no use/ need for those types). AF that is not in anyone's /seacom goes freelot (no point penalty), priority goes first to people that can equip the gear, then to 65+ etc. Usually we just call for open/ mannequin lot if no one is 50+ or expresses any interest in the AF. Also, as others have said, any job you plan to lot AF for is open to being a required job to bring if we need it.

All currency is sold for 3k a piece to members upgrading relics immediately after runs, and we usually have 4-6 upgraders at a time. This more than covers the cost for all hourglasses and it also covers 2x Einherjar runs a week as well. This information is also posted on the website after each run. We've finished 8 relics over the years, and are within a few months of finishing another 4-5 (all of these members are on last stages, within 2-3k pieces of finishing for the most part).

The great thing about this setup for us: We can run 50+ members and full clear cities/ get a high return on AF + currency. The ls is led by the same 3 people who have been around since the beginning, so even being an open shell, we keep things fairly efficient. Anyone blatantly not pulling their weight or just being a total douche gets kicked quickly.

The bad thing: Aside from a core of very well geared/ experienced players, we do have a lot of casual/nq players, and there is a decent amount of people who only join for a few weeks/ months at a time - usually the ones that leave quickly are the ones who just don't have an interest in dynamis after giving it a shot.

At this point though, I would say 75% of all drops are freelot, so people showing up for their first week of runs have a pretty good shot of walking away with AF. Most of our long time members have full sets of AF2 for just about every 75 job they have.

On a slightly unrelated note though, after 5 years of dynamis, the only AF/Accessory that has never dropped for us is Valor cape. (Not counting Tav Hydra drops). Every PLD in the ls has long had Shadow Mantle by now, but that cape just does not exist for us >_>

[Cesaria]

See also: Why I've been playing RDM since 2004 and have no Chapeau.

My mule is called Dukeberith and quite often I've left him logged on after muling hourglasses and flicked the screen on on my laptop to see him being slapped quite heavily by various 4/5 AF2 RDMs missing a hat.

[terranova]

Alot of rule/point setups I read in this thread were very innovative/likable.

All I really want is more relic for the 2 jobs I have. Since RDM is perhaps the hardest job in dynamis to get relic for, I just settle for the least job that people bring/care about in dynamis. But there is ALWAYS someone that wants it just to want it. It's fine if you have the job leveled and all of that, and by leveled, I mean ABLE TO WEAR IT, rather than HORDE it for your lvl1DNC or something. But when its a job you NEVER see anyone else bring to Dynamis(and that is scholar in my case) you tend to start thinking all relic for your job is entitled to you. I know it is not but..

Stay the hell off my gear >_>.

I feel much better saying that.

The shell I am in, is ideal, time wise because it's a german LS. After being in an EST dyna shell for close to a year, I couldn't stand "evening dynamis" anymore because the possibility of attending depended largely on my days off from work. Though I left that shell because the leader was an asshole.

It's only temperary I think; the leader is just doing it to make his relic weapon. So it'll be running for awhile.. besides, we don't pay for glasses, which is a huge plus for me because I have trouble making gil :/.

I always fell short in dynamis in terms of relic lots and wonder when that streak will run out. Well doing Beaucidine in a few days.. I'm gonna stack on a shitload of points for it only the leader should have more points than me(he doesn't want sch stuff, only RDM, BST). No one is gonna outlot me on my body. It shall be *mine*.

And if you think Im one of those people who "get gear and ditch", nope, I'm a main stayer. Long as I don't pay for glasses or disrespected in the runs, I'm not going anywhere.

Edit: And that person who outlotted me on SCH legs, didn't show up for sandy(though another LS went in when they weren't scheduled too..) the hands don't exactly suck, but I think this guy is after all the good pieces >_>. I know he wont show up for Jeuno or windurst(SCH feet are actually better than the standard feet, if you don't worry about the spellcasting quickening of it). Tsk tsk, you not gonna get points that way buddy.

[Yugl]

So what's your point?

[terranova]

I wasn't making a point, just a statement.

[Drex]

The leader is sponsoring every run, getting the currency for a relic, AND lotting gear over others? lol, sounds like most of your gil should be going towards some lube+1

[terranova]

No, he's only lotting the currency and sponsoring. The other members can lot on gear in cities and a point system is used for northlands.

And..reason I brought this topic back up again is because now I know why most people say Dynamis should be instanced. (also was a bit afraid to make a seperate topic)

While he(our leader) books the runs, we've had it taken from us twice by some LS called illuminouso or something.(Bahamut server). Granted the LS leader has a valid arguement that they *can* take runs regardless of who books it for that day, it's still unsportmen like. that other shells LS leader was like "we will tell you what runs we're doing in the future" and that he wont be using the scheduler. Uhm...the whole point of the scheduler is to let people know what runs you're doing so you don't take it or whatever..

Lots of people say this sort of thing happens all the time and I think that fucking sucks. Last week they took sandy from us and yesterday they took windy.

[gamez]

Every shell I've been in had a disaster poor system like the original post; "You can wear it, you can lot it." Most of the shells on Asura with pickup groups run this system, it was wracking my brain for years seeing this, while my friends on Garuda, Quetzacoatl, Phoenix etc, all had bidding.

Even going as far as my current shell, you have the job, even if you can't wear it, you can lot it before people who can wear it.

That was when I joined, but from that run onward, I started up an attendance system and we functionally converted to DKP for ice, this is by far the fairest system I've ever used.

It will take a good extra 3 hours of work for your leaders a week, they can spread the work load out. We use Google Excel Sheets to host our point spread and do it all manually. I'll PM you the info/system if you're hard up for it.

[Neosutra]

lolDynamis.