BLM, INT vs. MAB

[SephYuyX]

Man, even with it all laid out like that, this 'simplified version' is still confusing as hell, evil math lol.

Ill have to figure this out so I can compare the new MKD hat reward (2 INT vs 2 MAB), and see what differences there are.

[cdgreg]

Man, even with it all laid out like that, this 'simplified version' is still confusing as hell, evil math lol.

Ill have to figure this out so I can compare the new MKD hat reward (2 INT vs 2 MAB), and see what differences there are.

Or just plug your numbers into the magic dmg calculator posted on page 1

[Argettio]

I ran it through Suiram's site last night and 4 INT + 2 MAB wins for nearly all situations.

You need a very low base damage before the 6 INT wins (~330-350 depending on the rest of your gear).

[Sifer]

I'll post a VERY simplified version of the magic formula in my next post but there is 1 thing i have to respond to before it becomes the new "2 int=1 mab"

mab's effect on damage varies with the target's MDB. if the target has 100 mdb, the gain from adding 10 mab is going to be significantly less than a mob with 0 mdb or even a weakened MDB caused by some effect (at least unless i screwed the math up.)

It adds the same percentage regardless of MDB.

[Riki]

I ran it through Suiram's site last night and 4 INT + 2 MAB wins for nearly all situations.

You need a very low base damage before the 6 INT wins (~330-350 depending on the rest of your gear).

For pure damage 2 MAB will almost always win over 2 INT.
But as with every gear it can be situational.
Take a look at the whole augments:
-2 MAB, hHp+2
-2 INT, fastcast
Assuming 2INT=1MAB in terms of damage as a rule of thumb in most situations, to me personally i will get more benefit out of the fastcast then i would get out of the nuking damage that 1 MAB would provide. Also INT has more use that just pure damage.
And if i would be looking for e-peen screenshots i'd go with the magic critical hit +10%.

[Argettio]

For pure damage 2 MAB will almost always win over 2 INT.
But as with every gear it can be situational.
Take a look at the whole augments:
-2 MAB, hHp+2
-2 INT, fastcast
Assuming 2INT=1MAB in terms of damage as a rule of thumb in most situations, to me personally i will get more benefit out of the fastcast then i would get out of the nuking damage that 1 MAB would provide. Also INT has more use that just pure damage.
And if i would be looking for e-peen screenshots i'd go with the magic critical hit +10%.

I just providing the answer to the question asked.

As for Fastcast vs 1 MAB, or the extra m.acc you would get from 2 more INT thats all very personal.

Currently for BLM hat options:
High resist: relic
Mid resist: Morrigan's
Low resist: AF+1, Demon Helm +1 Ree Habalo's Headgear
No resist: Yigit

So depending on what you already have and what you use your BLM for you can basically build a Demon Helm +2 (6 INT, Fastcast, 2 MAcc), Ree Habalo's Headgear +1 (4INT, 2 MAcc, 2 MAB) or a morrigan +1 (4 INT, 5 Macc, hMP+3)

Personally I am tending towards 4INT, 2 MAcc, 2 MAB

[Sifer]

Ok, here is my simplified "formula" for figuring if adding MAB or INT would add more damage. 1st, my assumptions:

1-Using a tier 4 or AM2.

2-more INT than target (M=2)

it is important to understand that day, weather, staves and all other factors will change the damage output but they will NOT change which stat adds more damage than the other.


simplified magic damage formula:

Damage=(V+ DINTx2) x (MAB)

I'll subitiute the values from Suiram's example in this forumula and assume a 90 INT mob:

for thunder 4
Thunder 4=(541 + YOURINTx2 - MOBINTx2) x (MAB)

Thunder4=(541 + 216 - 180) x (1.83)

Thunder4= 577 x 1.83

here I'll remind you that when 2 numbers are multiplied, multiplying either of them by the same number(or percentage) gives the same result, for example: (2x3) x 4 = 2 x (3 x 4) = 2 x 3 x 4. so, multiplying either of the 2 terms by a certain percentage will result in the same increase. In other words, the piece that increases one of the 2 terms by the larger percentage will add more damage.


with AF+1 hat, YOURINT increases by 5, so, the 1st term increases by 10 (YOURINT x2)

thats a 587/577=1.017 or 1.7% increase in damage.

with yigit turban your MAB increases by 2, so the second term increases by 0.02

thats a 1.85/1.83=1.011 or a 1.1% increase in damage, so, AF+1 hat wins in this case.


I think this is an easier way to do it, although idk if I managed to deliver my idea sorry my english sucks XD


EDIT: btw, refer to http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Ca...g_Magic_Damage if you dont know what M or V are.

[Spekkio]

I'll post a VERY simplified version of the magic formula in my next post but there is 1 thing i have to respond to before it becomes the new "2 int=1 mab"



It adds the same percentage regardless of MDB.

let B be your base MAB before you add the new piece and N be the new piece. let M be the mob's MDB.
difference in multiplier for step =(B+N)/M-B/M=B/M+N/M-B/M=N/M
M (MAB) is a factor in determining the effect of adding MAB, no? where did i goof?

[Suiram]

MDB doesn't matter for this question since you're comparing differences in base damage and MAB, so the MDB of the mob (whatever it may be) cancels out. People are often misled by the fact that the game calculates MAB/MDB at the same time without intermediate flooring, but for the purpose of comparisons like this it's commutative. Any effect that flooring has during the calculations would only make a difference when the the comparable pieces are extremely close in a particular situation, and when that happens someone would just run the calculations if they are comfortable with them, or just try one cast in each piece, or use the piece with other beneficial statuses, or simply not bother since it's just 1~2 damage.


Sifer, you're absolutely right that your method gives you a more exact answer, and I think it's what many people do when they know or can easily ascertain the INT of the thing they are fighting. What I was trying to do with my guideline above was something that people not well-versed in this topic can do more generally, since with some familiarity it will often provide answers like "INT always wins" or "MAB always wins" or "MAB wins on AM2 but INT wins on Tier 4" irrespective of the mob you're fighting. Also, if you do happen to know the INT of the target, you can still use it. For instance, if you have 110 INT (without staff), and the mob has 90 INT, you could use 750, 581, and 556, for AM2, Thunder 4, and Blizzard 4, respectively, in comparing with the x value that that computer algebra website gives you (556 for Bliz added 5 INT from staff).

[Neoscrilla]

I have been testing the INT to MAB ratio over the years, and I can comfortably tell you that the ratio IS NOT 2INT=1MAB. In my numbers, its is more around the 2.25 - 2.3333 INT: 1 MAB. Like the previous posters said, it is difficult to come with exact numbers because of all the variables (day, weather, etc.) but I have been comparing these leisurley (sp?) for a few years now and 1 MAB being worth more than 2 INT. It is not a very big difference, but it is there. I am very sorry for the lack of proof to my claims, but any BLM that has been playing for a while can attest to these findings, if they ever cared or paid attention that is, lol.

P.S. I have always had a feeling that there is some sort of randomness to all of this as well. I honestly think that luck can play a factor in many a situation when it comes to potency/resists, but it is completely unfounded and and merely an opinion. Have you ever noticed things unexplainable that had no logical explanation? Sorry dont mean to start (or fuel) any more conspiracy theories, but I know that some ppl have seen what im talking about here in this P.S.

[Suiram]

The problem with any INT:MAB ratio rule--be it 2:1, 2.3:1, or what have you--in addition to not capturing the differences in spell and target INT, is that it also doesn't take into account the differences in gear from BLM to BLM. Some addition of MAB is going to be more effective for a fresh-off-the-line, unmeritted, AH BLM, than it is for a full morrigans BLM with a novio and a sorc ring latent and 5/5 potency nuking with uggalepih pendant under 50% MP. The former adding, say, MAB+3, gets about a 2% increase in damage, while the latter only gets a 1.6% increase since they already have so much MAB.

As for randomness, I have to completely disagree. There's randomness in resists, of course, and day/weather procs without obi, but aside from that the fun (for me) from magic damage is that if you have researched it well, you can calculate exactly the damage you should do in a particular situation. Not just that, but also the damage that a mob will do to you. I have to admit it's fun telling a PLD before B2 how much a Gigaflare will do to them in the run, and then nailing it when the time comes that he uses it.

[Spekkio]

MDB doesn't matter for this question since you're comparing differences in base damage and MAB, so the MDB of the mob (whatever it may be) cancels out. People are often misled by the fact that the game calculates MAB/MDB at the same time without intermediate flooring, but for the purpose of comparisons like this it's commutative. Any effect that flooring has during the calculations would only make a difference when the the comparable pieces are extremely close in a particular situation, and when that happens someone would just run the calculations if they are comfortable with them, or just try one cast in each piece, or use the piece with other beneficial statuses, or simply not bother since it's just 1~2 damage.

discard rounding error for this example as it will not have an effect on my point. let C represent all factors that are not involved in the MAB or D step. let D represent the first step of the calculations (IE the one where dint is considered, etc) and let X represent the MAB step. let N represent a change in int.
damage=D*X*C
D=V+(Dint*M)
if we increase int,
damage=(V+(Dint+N)*M)*X*C=VXC+MXC(Dint+N)=VXC+MXC* Dint+NMXC
and there we have my goof. N has an MDB multiplier involved when you expand it out just like an increase in MAB meaning you're right and we can cancel it out. note to self: doing math while sleepy is a bad idea.

as for your statement regarding a solid ratio, as soon as you set one up, someone will try to apply it to sch who has nowhere near the natural MAB trait or rdm who's in the same boat. the best rule of thumb is to plug your figures into a calculator and see what spills out. might even be valuable to make a table or chart in excel or open office or google docs or something to tease out your numbers.

it's also important to remember that int helps macc while mab does not. i know it's already been mentioned but it's worth stressing since this discussion seems to be in my opinion too focused exclusively on how to hit the big league numbers w/o concern for misses. remember, even the smallest resist and your damage is already slashed 50%. all the mab and int tuning in the world won't save you if you don't realize that when nuking a wyrm you need to fall back on your macc and int tools unless you want to get tooled.

[SephYuyX]

Another tangent with the new hat is the MCrit+10%, it comes out to an average of MAB+1 over time, but really its MAB+10 10% of the time.

The question is, will people sacrifice 1 MAB for some nice damage 10% of the time?

[Callisto]

The question is, will people sacrifice 1 MAB for some nice damage 10% of the time?

Sure, there's bound to be a few idiots out there, I've seen at least a handful of Acc+10/Atk+10 Nuevos.

[Spekkio]

Another tangent with the new hat is the MCrit+10%, it comes out to an average of MAB+1 over time, but really its MAB+10 10% of the time.

The question is, will people sacrifice 1 MAB for some nice damage 10% of the time?

why not? if there's the bait of a chance at a nice, new reward from re-beating the bc like there is now, i'm sure there will be plenty of chances for do-overs and you can get your ego stroking shot, then switch back to a sane build. if anyone thinks they're doing the right thing building that though, then it's time to "educate" them with forceful clubs to the helmet.

[Lahan]

Sure, there's bound to be a few idiots out there, I've seen at least a handful of Acc+10/Atk+10 Nuevos.

What is wrong with that? It is a hauby with no negative stats that a DRG can use. And you can still throw it on your SAM and WAR.

[Michelob]

The question is, will people sacrifice 1 MAB for some nice damage 10% of the time?

1 MAB and 10% Mcrit is more or less an equal trade, hardly a sacrifice.

[Yugl]

What is wrong with that? It is a hauby with no negative stats that a DRG can use. And you can still throw it on your SAM and WAR.

Sub SAM + Rajas + Brutal + Extra sTP item here and DRGs benefit more from +10 ACC and +4sTP.

[stewie]

What is wrong with that? It is a hauby with no negative stats that a DRG can use. And you can still throw it on your SAM and WAR.

With ACC/sTP you can get a 6hit.

Ninja'd.

[Lahan]

I use it on my sam and still have a 6 hit.