you guys

[Pikarya]

[Beckwin]

so tired of that song

not tired of the video.

[Beckwin]

Guartz what do you think about what's happening in Iran and Honduras now?

re: Honduras

haven't had time yet to read up on it myself, but I found this brief summary someone posted on another forum:

Democratically elected
Overthrown by the military (who do doubt had members trained at Mass Murder U. aka the School of the Americas)
Zelaya had adopted "Bolivarianism" (his government had taken on national literacy campaigns like those in Venezuela and Cuba, increase in the minimum wage, expanding health care to the poorest peoples in Honduras). Signed an agreement to import cheaper generic drugs from Cuba and Venezuela (no doubt garnering the wrath of the pharmaceutical big business), In short, he began pissing off the ultra rich and corporate behemoths. The result - damn the electorate, he's gotta go.
Any civilized members of the world community would condemn this.

although I've also read that the means in which Zelaya tried to push through a referendum were not in accordance with the Honduran constitution.

what's your take on the situation/the quote I posted?

[Ivve]

kuya and beckwin about to get sexy, but when you do it in guartz's thread it's like fucking in the dog bed and then getting weirded out when he shows up and starts licking on your ass

[gamez]

Everyone from General is making threads here this morning, I'm scared.

[Beckwin]

guartz has more spam cred than you, gamez

[Beckwin]

not hating on you, just letting you know whats up

[gamez]

I know from lurking, he posted here a helluva lot more, but still.

[gamez]

I actually have no cred, I just know people from elsewhere.

[Kuya]

I'm actually more concerned in finding out whether the US was actually involved in this, and that what they're currently saying is nothing but empty rhetoric. I say this because even though Zelaya started out as a conservative, he gradually become more leftist and began angering a lot of people in the US, i recall that he even sent quite a strong letter to Obama scolding him for government intervention in lieu of his promises.

Anyway, in the face of this, there is also the fact that the military leader leading the coup and the general in charge of the Hondurian air force where both trained at the infamous dictator school in the US. Add to that, i have also heard said that a small amount of US military are embedded in the same military Air Base where Zelaya was beaten and put on a plane and ilegally (there was no authorization from Costa Rica) dropped off in Costa Rica. Now why would the US say it condems this and not intervene? Add even further than information has been circulating around that the US knew of the coup beforehand. I still do need confirmation on the US troops in said air base though.

But yes, this looks like right wing ultra rich military elites trying to stop someone who was apparently too leftist for their tastes, even if he was democratically elected. The funny thing is, he didn't even actually change the constitution, but rather he wanted a poll to be conducted to find out whether the people wanted it.

[Kuya]

In any case, even if US involvement isn't explicit, the US needs to do much more than talk seeing as how they provide military aid to the same military that just pulled off this coup.

As in, your tax payers are paying for the M-4s currently being aimed at civilians there.

[Beckwin]

yeah, I agree that the whole thing does not sit well. I mean, in attempt to prevent a potential/perceived grab at autocracy, the two most autocratic elements of the Honduran government stage a coup (I wonder who is in charge now? lol). The US ties run deep in Honduras (Battalion 316 (Honduras) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, among general support after the Salvadoran-Honduran conflict) and that region as a whole; it's way too early to dismiss any US involvement.

However I do see at least some reason for concern when a sitting president wants to change established rules to be able to extend his term. This gets to be a very hairy situation- idealistically, if his work is good and his policy reflects the benevolent will of the people for equality and advancement, he should have no problem finding a legit successor to carry on his work while he can continue to serve his people in a different role after his term as president. however, realizing that it's not an ideal situation, I feel sympathetic to a somewhat marxist-leninist stance in which it may be necessary to install some kind of "vanguard" to protect good intentions from external/elite mangling. but when it's all said and done, I'm less than comfortable with a lot of marxism-leninism.... But in this case, he was simply seeking 1 more term, which isn't so extreme that he doesn't deserve a fair look (although I feel a slippery slope wouldn't necessarily be a fallacy here- if he can extend it once, why not twice? etc.)

It'll be interesting to see how this develops.

[Kuya]

Yea, but again, he did simply want a poll to see whether the people wanted a referendum to change the constitution. And the autocrats used that as an excuse to oust him. Shouldn't it be the people's business whether they want to a politician's terms to be extended?

Furthermore, in this world, it's impossible to be a peaceful leftist (or even right wing if they don't heed the US) nation when you have valuable resources or geopolitical importance, as you can bet that foreign powers are going to interfere. I may not like Chávez, but i can understand where his authoritarian demeanor comes from. A coup was attempted against him and guess by who? Yep, a man trained at the School of the Americas.

[Ivve]

i'm not honest, but i find this interesting

[guartz]

Yea, but again, he did simply want a poll to see whether the people wanted a referendum to change the constitution. And the autocrats used that as an excuse to oust him. Shouldn't it be the people's business whether they want to a politician's terms to be extended?

Furthermore, in this world, it's impossible to be a peaceful leftist (or even right wing if they don't heed the US) nation when you have valuable resources or geopolitical importance, as you can bet that foreign powers are going to interfere. I may not like Chávez, but i can understand where his authoritarian demeanor comes from. A coup was attempted against him and guess by who? Yep, a man trained at the School of the Americas.

To be honest, I find myself at the sidelines here. Zelaya seems to be intent on hammering his policies, which generally seem to be aimed at helping the majority of Hondurans. His policies are a slap to NAFTA. Minimum wages, support for unions, etc. I just feel like the approach invites the coup, or rather, makes it easier.

Kuya, you mention Chavez, but you have to understand, Chavez moved aggressively because he had the military support. Zelaya does not.

Obama speaks of opposition to the coup, naturally, since the Coup is a bloody mess. Just watched Democracy Now, it seems media has been shutdown and the military threatens to shoot anyone violating it. Yet Obama does nothing to actually assist Zelaya.

[Kuya]

I can understand if he were hammering it because hammering it would be the only way to get them to stick, but like you said, he doesn't have control over the military in Honduras, so his hardliner approach might be ill advised.

As for Obama and the US government, considering that they are giving military aid to said military, what they should do is stop said military aid, because they can't just talk like they did in Iran, they are actually deeply involved in this case.

[guartz]

what type of an aid are we talking about here? Weapons? Money? Troops?

[Kuya]

I don't know the specifics. I assume that they are weapons since the air plane used to kidnap Zelaya was American made and the guns currently being used are also American. Money and troops? Perhaps, i've heard this:

Secondly, the US has a fairly significant military presence in Honduras. Joint Task Force-Bravo is located at Soto Cano Air Base, Honduras. The base is home to some 550 US military personnel and more than 650 US and Honduran civilians:

They work in six different areas including the Joint Staff, Air Force Forces (612th Air Base Squadron), Army Forces, Joint Security Forces and the Medical Element. 1st Battalion, 228th Aviation Regiment, a US Army South asset, is a tenant unit also based at Soto Cano. The J-Staff provides command and control for JTF-B.

Also, quartz, i just read on DN that Israel plans to annex some West Bank territory... isn't that like an inmense deal? I haven't heard a peep about this till now.

[guartz]

Also, quartz, i just read on DN that Israel plans to annex some West Bank territory... isn't that like an inmense deal? I haven't heard a peep about this till now.

To be fair, that could be just pre-coup support? You'd figure if Obama publicly condemns the coup and then provides like logistics or arms, he'd be called out on that asap?

Israel> Hmm. You should be amazed it's in the news at all. Since when does the media report that more settlements houses are being built AND that such actions are illegal.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel approves 50 settler homes

No, i'm too used to stories like this:
washingtonpost.com

Which I think are on the same topic. Not sure, with all that Bullshit.

[Kuya]

You are right, it is pre-coup support. Or rather it is if he takes away said support in response to the coup.

Also, on the Israel thing, i'm not referring to the construction of more settlements, but that allegedly Israel wants to annex about 55 square miles in the West Bank and a shore line near the Dead Sea. I'm not too confident in it since i have yet to see it mentioned in of the other sites i use. However DN reported it today.