Famitsu - Creating a Monster: Pandemonium Warden

[Starr]

Tell us what % you have got AV to then VS

[Virtuous Saint]

Tell us what % you have got AV to then VS

Why would you want to know this? Apathy isn't the only ls fighting AVs right now either btw.

[Gtype954]

You guys seems to forget that some servers are really small and have like 1100 most of the time.
They need to stop designing monsters like everyone is from the Odin server.
50 people is a hell of alot. I say the strongest monster in the game should be killable by 18 people max (1 alliance).
If its an einherjar mob or a dynamis mob that can hold 36 or 64 people without calling for help on the mob, then it should take a big amount to kill it (without relic weapons). Those mobs Such as dynamis lord for example, should still be killable by 1 alliance if they are well above average geared. (And DL is killable with 1 alliance or less).

Being that you cannot fight AV and PW without calling for help on them.
Then they should take 18 people max to fight them and 6 people max for their pets. I consider the pets a different part of the NM. As long as the NM itself can be killed with 18 without dropping and replacing people, it would be fair.


-1.The original design of the monster was to be over 18-24 hours to kill.
-2.Have over 30-54 people.
-3.Drop very little items in the loot pool and they are not 100% drops either.
-4.The tier IVs are about a 10% drop rate on their trophies.

Lets see what the covers.

-1. 18-24 hours. Yup their will be some ninja lotters for sure. Hell even I would try to ninja a damn item and I never stolen anything in my entire life.

-2. 30-54 people. Everyone is gonna wanna get in at least for the damn title. The leaders or some people will hide in the back so they won't die, so they won't get replaced with non-weakened people. Some servers are small as hell and finding 54 ppl, let alone 25, would be a damn near impossible tasks.

-3. 4 drops from the loot pool if you are lucky or your TH4 thf survived somehow. This isn't guarenteed. You might only get 1 item and some crappy materials which drop from other monsters.

-4. 10% drop. These take awhile to farm to people will be afraid to attempt this monster again. alot of people have actually quit this game when losing their trigs to PW. They do not want to farm those trigs again just to "practice". The trigger popper should get at least 1 item though. (unless you combine 3 different trophies which causes more drama.)

Yes this monster was meant to killed by a LS that is like a "family" and not a random good elite bunch of 54 players. But this monster and most ff11 monsters were designed to cause drama between people. The environment is "bad". I compare it to how Jerry Springer's shows create an environment where everyone wants to fight each other or see fights lol.

Almost every NM in the entire game can be killed with an elite group with less 18 people. (odin died by like 14 people, the tier IVs have died with about 12 people or less, hell dynamis Lord died by 12 people. Bahamut V2 dies by less then 18 people)

AV and PW should be the monsters where you need 18 people for. But nomore then 24 people if you include 1 party to handle their pets since you can do that without calling for help.
----------------------------------------

Closing GOOD news.

-PW is farmable status to apathy. therefore, I do not consider the mob broken.

- I am certain 90% that will PWs trigs will be 100% drop in the future.
Kirin was not 100% at one point in time.
AV was not an 100% drop at one time.
PW is compared to them both and SE said they will adjust those monsters at the same time if the new WOTG boss needs adjustments.
So around the time that WOTG monster comes out, or later on in the games dead cycle. PW will be 100% trigs. Mythic or not.

[Linktri]

Having the title "Virtuous Saint" should remove all bazaar taxes, remove all AH fees and tax, reduce NPC costs by 50%, raise NPC buying price 50%, make Chocobo rentals free, give permanent enhanced running speed +12%, make all outpost warp fees free and give handjobs.

[Shadowrunner]

I agree with BRP. Why does every single fugglenugget that attends -HAVE- to be rewarded? 2 months is a long time for a fight against one of the toughest mobs there is, and any reward should be rewarding enough. So you get nothing out of the fight, why do you have to get something? If everyone is afraid of being the guy who is "oh yeah, he hasn't done crap because he has crap" , then perhaps everyone might be playing the wrong game.

Reward enough is knowing that nothing can stop your path, as a team. Who gives a crap if everybody doesn't get "that one item" that makes you .0274264% more effective, on a job you'll most likely stop playing after a few months to pick up some other new and unbeatable trend.

P.S. - If you're losing half of your exp bar fighting the mob, you're dying too much. If you're not able to make that xp up in a matter of days, consider trying a touch harder.

[Spira]

well i'm not saying that SE has got it down pat, but handing out (good) items to everyone isn't good for the game in the long run in that people have less to strive for.
there are a bunch of intrinsic motivators around but this would take away from need for power and need for achievement (mcclelland's theory) considerably.

I do believe SE does desire for players who are driven more by need for affiliation, because they are the easiest to upkeep. these are the kinds of people who are content with logging on and hanging out with friends and doing events for absolutely no reward, but they're also rare. instead we have the harder to please people who demand new stuff that allow for greater achievements most of the time.

a lot of people who play the game are driven by need for achievement, and events that cater to these people account for the bulk of reward systems in place. this is the reason why people aim for relics and rare equipment. giving people items like that easily diminishes the satisfaction from pursuing this motivational goal. similarly, in the game situation where it is technically possible to have done and achieved 'everything', this is the very same reason why u sometimes see people who just obtained their relics lose interest in the game and start to quit. and of course, SE doesn't want this to happen as they are still profit-driven to some extent.. FFXI has already made them more than enough money, but it is by means no reason for them to just screw with their investment model.

if we are to delve into economics a little bit, FFXI in contrast with WoW is a lot more demanding of its players, but is able to retain the players for a longer time because of this, and thus 'reap' more money from what 'little' number of players available to them.

with wow, they have a much larger gaming population, and by proportion of income from subscriptions to number of players, can easily afford to keep the players for a much shorter amount of time. as the most popular MMO on the market, it also takes advantage of the 80:20 principle. even getting one months worth of subscription from new players is enough to keep their model churning. and they have clever ways of injecting more money in bulk using game cards.

Other (much) smaller games may employ monthly subscription fees or resort to selling items for money (which is especially profitable) and keep their economic model running that way.

honestly, in looking at the way the game is designed, we cannot truly separate it from the economic model that the game is built upon. and this goes down to even the reward systems used. I think (hope) the developers know this, which is why they are constantly trying out different systems, meant to cater to the different mindsets of its gamers. The best way they can really do this is through reward systems (to satisfy need for achievement) because aspects such as players need for power (over other players) are beyond their control - these account for things like LS politics and stuff like that... and affiliation can only be fostered between players themselves, tho SE encourages this alot (forced partying) and have since realised that they were being unrealistic about it.

I'd say one of the more successful models that SE has come up with is Limbus, which appears to employ drive theory and the setting of short-term, mid-term and long-term goals/rewards.

just briefly,
short term rewards would be coins gained from runs

mid term rewards are the af+1 items, as well as the items bought with coins

long term rewards would be drops from proto-ultima and omega.

this alone is not enough of course... it happens that limbus also has a balanced effort:reward ratio, or as it is known in expectancy theory, performance-reward relationship...

in a LS with fair distributive lotting systems, it should take a while for anyone to 'clear out' the entire system of its desirable rewards.. and it's pretty much designed in a way that this isn't necessary, nor realistic. in this sense, it is a system that works well because it isn't quickly exhaustive, but also provides rewards that motivates players along the way to the big carrot...

and even if this system has its flaws, this is surely better than giving out items to retain/satisfy players in the long run.

[Spira]

on the issue of people getting rewarded, i don't believe that EVERYONE being rewarded is necessary, but a chance of the reward is a good extrinsic motivator.
the rewards can also come from within, intrinsic rewards like satisfaction from killing the NM.

Some intrinsic rewards have been given extrinsic representation, such as NM titles, which usually mean nothing at all in game, but can mean a lot to players themselves.

for group events, the issue with not having any (good) rewards is that the few who could care less about being rewarded are outnumbered by those who do care... and they seldom can band up with enough people to get things done that way..

think of it like CoP missions... mission fans are not technically 'rewarded' with items of value to use when they clear the missions until they get their Sea access. and the people who couldn't care about missions because there was no reward wouldn't touch it until the advent of Sea and its rewards opening up....

put into WotG context.. nobody is really doing them now.. but they will be rushing through them when they realise the missions will unlock some new event/area (and it usually does.. but these people never learn)

[Xno Kappa]

think of it like CoP missions... mission fans are not technically 'rewarded' with items of value to use when they clear the missions until they get their Sea access. and the people who couldn't care about missions because there was no reward wouldn't touch it until the advent of Sea and its rewards opening up....

put into WotG context.. nobody is really doing them now.. but they will be rushing through them when they realise the missions will unlock some new event/area (and it usually does.. but these people never learn)

There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

There are those who would rather wait til the story-line is actually complete before they play through them. WotG is a perfect example, the expansion is coming up on its two year anniversary in a couple of months and yet we've barely passed the midpoint of it. Nothing wrong with being able to enjoy everything without reviewing who's who and where's where, if one decides to play through everything in it's complete state.

[Starr]

Why would you want to know this? Apathy isn't the only ls fighting AVs right now either btw.

Just wondering what people consider as AV being doable by what % you can get it to in 2 hours, does it kill you to answer the question? Or does it just make you feel big and awesome holding it back?

[Sho]

think of it like CoP missions... mission fans are not technically 'rewarded' with items of value to use when they clear the missions until they get their Sea access. and the people who couldn't care about missions because there was no reward wouldn't touch it until the advent of Sea and its rewards opening up....

put into WotG context.. nobody is really doing them now.. but they will be rushing through them when they realise the missions will unlock some new event/area (and it usually does.. but these people never learn)

I simply have to agree with all you said here; I find it funny no one on my server does any missions up until a new event is unlocked from doing them. Then afterwards a flood of people are racing to complete the content-- Sky/Sea/Captain being some examples. Usually I'm one of those people that get everything done early, then roped into helping slackers a while afterwards.

These WoTG missions are damn fun and interesting storyline wise, comparable and/or better than ToAU story, giving me the only reason I need to do them. I guess people will always need that incentive to do anything.

[Kipling]

Just wondering what people consider as AV being doable by what % you can get it to in 2 hours, does it kill you to answer the question? Or does it just make you feel big and awesome holding it back?

Well that one picture showed a possible 59% with narse saying it happened, but that may be the lowest as of yet?

[Starr]

Yeah I've seen that but dunno how that makes it killable if it took 2 hours

[Demosthenes11]

nobody will figure out AV if they can't figure out 2hours.
Benediction always wins.

considering how many times AV has been fought in the last 4-5 years, it's fuckin ridiculous that it hasn't been figured out yet. The gimmick is like if they locked you in a room and said there is only 1 way to open the door, and they don't even give you a hint. 60 years later when you are dead in there and someone asks what the key was, and they say "it was pretty obvious, he just had to smear shit over the edges and shout 'madagascar' "

we have no hints. we have nothing to work off of that doesn't blow shit and contradict itself.
BRP you can blow SE some more but it won't suddenly make the key to AV apparent

[Virtuous Saint]

Just wondering what people consider as AV being doable by what % you can get it to in 2 hours, does it kill you to answer the question? Or does it just make you feel big and awesome holding it back?

43-45%. It isn't what you can get it to in 2hrs, its what can you get it to before it kills you.

[Spira]

There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

There are those who would rather wait til the story-line is actually complete before they play through them. WotG is a perfect example, the expansion is coming up on its two year anniversary in a couple of months and yet we've barely passed the midpoint of it. Nothing wrong with being able to enjoy everything without reviewing who's who and where's where, if one decides to play through everything in it's complete state.

I'm not saying it is wrong, but it doesn't help the developers in their struggle to balance content with incentives. Their task is to develop content for people to play, that people want to play. But some content just never took off because people didn't feel an incentive to do it, whether or not it was fun..

This is especially true with most of the mini-games in FFXI.
Pankration was a novelty that was largely ignored by the majority of the player base past the first 2 weeks... and remained empty until ZNM came along and some people started to actually enter the Colosseum to get the soultrappers or fight with their pets for jettons to buy more cameras/plates. There was nothing wrong with it before, and its actually quite fun, but the majority wouldn't pick up on it if it didn't have a purpose outside of its own system...

Applied to WotG, this is an issue because the same people who don't intend to do the new quests or missions until it becomes rewarding are the same people who complain of 'no content' in the new expansion. Then from there it just becomes a matter of perception..

People (and by people i mean the majority who do things only when there are good incentives) perceive the expansion to have no new rewards that are worth the effort, or worth their time, or worth getting at all, so every system that doesn't have anything they want gets regarded as 'insignificant', 'non-existent', 'non-content'...

And because of that, much of the new systems in place in the game are underused...
I know of people who only do Campaign in WotG and nothing else.

Missions/Nation Quests - these come every update and are amazing. story is great. cutscenes are great. but no rewards apparently. so people don't bother doing it.

Quests - it seems that people just stopped doing quests as long as it didn't have a good reward. WotG has a bunch of character background quests which is are highly interesting/funny.. but people don't do this either (love Areuhat's quest)

Campaign Ops - small exp rewards, but some are really fun to play (i love Steel Resolve). The harder ones or the ones that don't offer as much rewards are totally ignored.. some are quite fun to play (Cut and Cauterize is pretty interesting)

SNM - a number of HNM/endgame LS do this, but how many would actually do Castle Oztroja (S)? If not for the rewards, at least to see some new NMs and their behavior is quite cool. I love Adamankings shining shell thing.

ANNM - daily BCNM type event... it doesn't seem quite as popular as stuff like say ISNM, notably because you cannot use own orb own drop rules... but the drops are not bad, and the equipment is not bad too... it can be rather random, but the good stuff is worth it..
but people don't really like to do it..

to add to this mentality of only doing things when theres a reward, this kind of behavior brings about inconvenience to oneself..
When the nation quests / missions unlock some new event and everyone suddenly rushes to do them, you're going to see them bitch about the 'poor design' of Nyumomo doll droprates, or how waiting for next game day is ridiculous... which really isn't the case considering they had this much time to get them done...
You can get this when people rush to do missions when it just comes out too, and that is a problem at times, but its a good thing in a way, because these people are the ones who aren't motivated by incentive.. they actually just want to play the game.

[Virtuous Saint]

nobody will figure out AV if they can't figure out 2hours.
Benediction always wins.

considering how many times AV has been fought in the last 4-5 years, it's fuckin ridiculous that it hasn't been figured out yet. The gimmick is like if they locked you in a room and said there is only 1 way to open the door, and they don't even give you a hint. 60 years later when you are dead in there and someone asks what the key was, and they say "it was pretty obvious, he just had to smear shit over the edges and shout 'madagascar' "

we have no hints. we have nothing to work off of that doesn't blow shit and contradict itself.
BRP you can blow SE some more but it won't suddenly make the key to AV apparent

Several Ls know how to lock 2hrs. Also, it is in the video.

[arus2001]

As long as I'm spending something (EXP/Food/Tools/Time), it'd be nice to get something in return (Typically the unique loot associated with whatever). When you further multiply people spending their whatever, the odds of them walking away content with nothing drastically decreases. First few attempts might be fun, magical even. After that? Feelings of content decrease further.

Just requiring a metric shit-ton of people is a hurdle of its own. Many have difficulty even just setting up statics for missions. Time Zones can make Dynamis and other scheduled events a hassle for those who either need to get up early or stay up late. Do they work? Is their schedule variable? How about their social/family life? All of this needs to be juggled before you can even really fairly start to plan.

Sure, entertainment should be our ultimate reward when playing, but what people consider a worthwhile carrot will always vary. Better to account for a wider variety of preferences than just a few. Who knows, good word of mouth might actually help a business.

[Starr]

If you can lock two hours then what the fuck is killing you? Aeroga?

[nekura]

If you can lock two hours then what the fuck is killing you? Aeroga?

Probably Meteor when he can use it at will.

[Starr]

That's under 79%? and how frequent does it use it?