Famitsu - Creating a Monster: Pandemonium Warden

[Narol]

Sure, entertainment should be our ultimate reward when playing, but what people consider a worthwhile carrot will always vary.

According to certain people, a worthwhile carrot is simply a nifty title after you and your entire 50+ man alliance get beaten up for the better part of 2 hours while 4 people at most get tangible rewards.

I'm sure that's why Cerb is so heavily camped. Every day, I see people bitching that they can't do Hydra because he always spawns purple. Right when the window opens, no fewer than 10 LSes all trying to bot the claim. It's the sheer delight in getting that title.

But seriously, PW is a broken philosophy. It's not going to kill the game by itself, but when every big NM is designed that way, you get the ground kings/sky gods scenario.

considering how many times AV has been fought in the last 4-5 years, it's fuckin ridiculous that it hasn't been figured out yet. The gimmick is like if they locked you in a room and said there is only 1 way to open the door, and they don't even give you a hint. 60 years later when you are dead in there and someone asks what the key was, and they say "it was pretty obvious, he just had to smear shit over the edges and shout 'madagascar' "

You cannot get ye flask!

Seriously, though, it reminds me of people who defend the absolutely absurd "guide, dang it!" adventure games like King's Quest or Space Quest, where if you didn't do every little thing the way that only made sense to the lead developer, you were thoroughly screwed, oftentimes going for hours before this became apparent.

Shitty design is shitty design, whether in old adventure games or in FFXI. If players can't figure something out after years of it being in, it's the devs' fault, not the players'.

[Max™]

Hey Sho, am I one of those three people who do missions to do them on your server?

True, I didn't pay attention during a lot of ACP, but it was pretty stupid anyways, but I've always liked getting through the story itself as well as the rewards at the end.

Spoiler: show

Also: regarding AV, a little birdy finally told me it took roughly two tics for a half broken regen AV to heal after a 350~ Dmg hit. Extrapolating that out suggests the rate to be 8k/minute for unbroken, 4k/minute for half broken, and 2k/minute if it reduces to 1/4th when fully broken. Leaving a 6k/minute buffer of damage you can deal before (if my idea is correct) he decides you're being impatient.

Too inane; didn't read? Np, if you take less than 10 minutes killing him, he'll probably facerape you.

[BRP]

spira you are writing a lot, but we don't need to down that road, at all.

well i'm not saying that SE has got it down pat, but handing out (good) items to everyone isn't good for the game in the long run in that people have less to strive for.

ONLY if people don't have other things to strive for. Granted the population of FFXI might be full of people who flee from challenge when presented to them. But again, dogs. People who actually play games will be happy just to play something worth playing.

Also I don't appreciate a 3-4 per 2-3 months etc reward system. I appreciate the 0 reward system.

What is odd is that mission per mission WotG is far more "rewarding" than ToAU or CoP or etc were. With the introduction of the Gobbie Bag quest you can save(or gain) hundreds of k.

EDIT: If a MMO MUST make some silly itemization system for players I would hope it is through "side-gression," what FFXI practices(but not all the time...)

EDIT: But again, there is still no reason why a player should have to kill a monster to gain options. More options from the start is the better system.

[Sho]

Hey Sho, am I one of those three people who do missions to do them on your server?

Nope, but now you're the 4th lol. I promise you, come September/October/November there will be yet another upsurge to complete WoTG missions to get to the supposed "Walk of Echos" zone. Only then however, I can't be bothered at that point to help people that are still behind because I'll be too serious into collecting Alex and Old Money.

I'll go ahead and state my opinion-- the WoTG storyline (and quests) is the best storyline to date all considering. Despite it moving slow as fuck, they are packing in all the magic and suspense that they can, building off of foreshadowing and the fact that we know that we are our own time-travelling saviors.

[Yugl]

What is odd is that mission per mission WotG is far more "rewarding" than ToAU or CoP or etc were. With the introduction of the Gobbie Bag quest you can save(or gain) hundreds of k.

Missions thus far only grant a flag as a reward. Quests give the expensive items.

[Virtuous Saint]

it helps to look at what i quoted

And you should look at what I quoted you dumb fucking truck. You said something stupid about people never finding it, and it being too hard to find and the hints they gave were terrible. I merely stated, and quoted that when I did, that people know how to lock 2hrs, and I didn't say we did. By the way the second part of that statement I made about someone asking about % was about what you said, I was correcting your mistaken post about no one knowing how to. I strongly suggest you kill yourself, not just based on these posts but previous things you have posted that were completely retarded.

[BRP]

Missions thus far only grant a flag as a reward. Quests give the expensive items.

There is absolutely no point in making the distinction.

[Yugl]

Quests are not Missions. Get that straight. Missions don't reward you with high valued items, but quests do. They may be tied to missions, but to acknowledge that only furthers my point that they aren't the same. If you don't distinguish between them, then arguably Zilart is much more rewarding since Suppa/Bushi/Abyss Earring (Though less broadly) outweigh the gil you save from inventory quest items.

[BRP]

Divine Might is entirely optional. It goes beyond being "tied" to it when you must complete at least one quest line to continue doing missions.

[Spira]

BRP>

sorry lol. i want to say one thing and then everything just comes uncontrollably. I agree with the dragged out story arcs. It's not necessary, but I also appreciate the fact that there is a story to begin with. I guess we're all a minority here, but i really enjoy playing the game for its story. I actually read the cutscenes. It's not enter-spam like some people I know...

Hirokei>

the rush mentality can exist within people who need or don't need itemized incentives to play. some people pride themselves in having cleared the missions earlier, or gotten to know more about the story earlier. its kinda like people who rush to read thru a newly released storybook just to say they've read it before everyone else. if they're assholes they can spoil them too.

i think wait next day systems in the game and limited pop drops isn't a bad system. It may seem flawed that people actually have to wait for it, but I think it's a great way that they are relaxing the pace of the content and not pandering to the players that "require" instant gratification. I don't believe MMOs were designed to be games made for instant gratification, but have always been drawn out deferred gratification systems.. It doesn't have to be this way, but it might as well not be an MMORPG if it isn't, if you know what i mean.

Narol>

Hydra isn't camped, but he still gets killed once in a while by LS that want to fight something worth a challenge, or get NM practise or for a shiny new title. I was once so excited to kill Hydra that I kept bugging my LS to kill it. Then we killed it and I got my title.. so I'm happy. For what its worth, he has served his purpose of bringing another achievement to me (and other players).. But in terms of proper game design, something should be done to make him a more in demand NM, and sadly the only way for that to happen in this game is to put in direct/indirect itemization incentives.

[Narol]

Hydra isn't camped

Yes. That was the joke.

[Yugl]

Quests are not Missions. Get that straight. Missions don't reward you with high valued items, but quests do. They may be tied to missions, but to acknowledge that only furthers my point that they aren't the same. If you don't distinguish between them, then arguably Zilart is much more rewarding since Suppa/Bushi/Abyss Earring (Though less broadly) outweigh the gil you save from inventory quest items.

Divine Might is entirely optional. It goes beyond being "tied" to it when you must complete at least one quest line to continue doing missions.

You assume by "tied" I mean necessary quests instead of quests that allow for progression of the story line. Bad assumption. Moreover, my Divine Might argument was mentioned on the condition that quests and missions become recognized as a single entity, not on the condition that they were "tied".

[Narol]

So what's wrong with using the ingame distinction between quests and missions? Namely, how they're listed under the Quests and Missions tabs?

[Yugl]

So what's wrong with using the ingame distinction between quests and missions? Namely, how they're listed under the Quests and Missions tabs?

According to BRP, there's no point in making a distinction.

[Narol]

Insofar as they both involve accepting the mission/quest and completing a set of objectives of arbitrary length, they're the same, I will grant him that, but the game itself makes a distinction. It makes that distinction because of what's involved in missions (completing the main story) and quests (most everything else, with exceptions like Divine Might replacing Ark Angels) not being in the same category from a storytelling perspective.

Apparently BRP thinks he knows better than SE.

[Spira]

There are only a few differences between quests and missions..

the initial distinction made between them was because original missions were split into 3 nations, and if you were signed on for one nation, you could not do any of the other 2 at the same time. That was the main purpose of missions. Since each nation had a set path, they used these nation specific quests and added ranks to them and so on... which furthers the identity of missions.

You'll notice that in order to allow for anyone from any allegiance to enjoy quest story, WotG nation storylines were made into quests as opposed to missions, when they technically are as good as missions since you cannot progress WotG missions without them. With expansion stories, the core storyline quests are thus classified as missions to emphasize their importance to the expansion storyline..

A few other technical aspects of missions.
You do not lose EXP in all story mission BCs. Missions have their own special quest log. (lol). Mission NMs don't drop equipment / or usually anything that isn't a trigger item.
All missions are not repeatable for (the same) rewards. Only ACP's key reward system defies this.

Yugl> "Missions don't reward you with high valued items, but quests do."

...? what are CoP rings, ToA rings and ACP bodies then? Not to mention Tavnazian ring.

The 'quests' that come with the best rewards so far are mostly tied in with missions, and require missions to have been done... but the only reason this is really so is because (pre-ACP) they wanted for these quests/events to have replay value, thus allowing people to repeat them like quests.
Quests like DM are alternate paths to missions, made in the form of a quest.. but accomplish the same purpose.
Also for one such as Apocalypse Nigh, it may only be a quest because it straddles on 2 mission storylines.
Technically, a quest that requires a mission is still a quest, but realistically, it is as good as a mission (save for the no exp loss bonus set to mission BCs now)

[Yugl]

This discussion does not need to diverge into the differences between a quest and a mission. The point is that someone said Wings missions are more rewarding "mission per mission" (Whatever qualifies as that) when it's the quests that give these rewards not the missions.

Nevertheless, I do have a few problems with these points:

the initial distinction made between them was because original missions were split into 3 nations, and if you were signed on for one nation, you could not do any of the other 2 at the same time. That was the main purpose of missions. Since each nation had a set path, they used these nation specific quests and added ranks to them and so on... which furthers the identity of missions.

Are you suggesting that the initial distinction between missions and quests is that missions are nation specific and forbid participation in other nation's activities? If so, then escort quests qualify as missions because they too are nation specific and you cannot activate one while another is active.

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Es..._(San_d%27Oria)

You'll notice that in order to allow for anyone from any allegiance to enjoy quest story, WotG nation storylines were made into quests as opposed to missions, when they technically are as good as missions since you cannot progress WotG missions without them. With expansion stories, the core storyline quests are thus classified as missions to emphasize their importance to the expansion storyline..

Quests are quests. Missions are missions. They're distinguished in game by the log. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Your assertion that quests can be classified as missions would suggest that not only is the in game log wrong, but also that the Kazham Keys quest (Necessary to do Zilart missions) can be classified as a mission. Willing to make that claim?

A few other technical aspects of missions.
You do not lose EXP in all story mission BCs.

Most of the XP saving property of missions was implemented later on. I'm unsure about Nation missions, but I'm quite sure Zilart missions cost XP when initially introduced.

Missions have their own special quest log. (lol).

Which destroys the notion that Wings quests are classified as mission doesn't it?

Mission NMs don't drop equipment / or usually anything that isn't a trigger item.

That depends on your idea of a trigger item. The NM you kill going up Delkutt's Tower gives you the R/EX item used to teleport to the floor you killed the NM on. Though I'm unsure if killing this NM was necessary to complete the mission.

All missions are not repeatable for (the same) rewards. Only ACP's key reward system defies this.

Doesn't an exception mean your classification is incorrect? Moreover, can't I complete the final CoP mission for a different ring if desired?

Yugl> "Missions don't reward you with high valued items, but quests do."

...? what are CoP rings, ToA rings and ACP bodies then? Not to mention Tavnazian ring.

Someone isn't keeping up with the discussion. BRP stated that Wings missions give you better rewards "mission per mission" because they give you valuable items such as Angelstone and such. That posts you quoted was in response to that statement. Taken in context, it's a true statement since the only reward thus far from Wings missions is a flag.

The 'quests' that come with the best rewards so far are mostly tied in with missions, and require missions to have been done... but the only reason this is really so is because (pre-ACP) they wanted for these quests/events to have replay value, thus allowing people to repeat them like quests.

Thanks for your insight into why SE took certain action. Would you mind doing the next interview for them as well?

Quests like DM are alternate paths to missions, made in the form of a quest.. but accomplish the same purpose.
Also for one such as Apocalypse Nigh, it may only be a quest because it straddles on 2 mission storylines.
Technically, a quest that requires a mission is still a quest, but realistically, it is as good as a mission (save for the no exp loss bonus set to mission BCs now)

Whether a quest requiring previous missions is as good as a mission depends on what criteria you're using for "good". Are you saying it's the same as a mission? Are you saying it's apart of the missions? Are you saying it's as rewarding as missions? You're focused on Wings, but I can name a few quests that require mission completion:

Three Mithras BC for X Knife
Diabolos summon BC
Wyrmking fights
Quests that require access to an area gained by missions
Various quests at the castle in San d Oria
Sky teleports from craigs

I stated this before, but I'll state it again. Missions are missions as distinguished by the logs. Quests are quests as distinguished by the logs. There's absolutely no need to debate over what a mission and a quest is because SE has already solved that problem.

[Titanss]

you phrasing this the way you did makes you look like an idiot trying to get people to quote you going "omg i no rite1!!!" If you want to call me out then call me out, don't pussyfoot around it to try and make yourself look cool because people might agree with you




.

..makes me look like a idiot?.. this from a guy who wants me to call him out on the internet. k i'll call you out, fuck your girlfriend and we will meet after school. fucking e-thug douch.. christ what happened to the good trolls?

P.S. I Love You.

[Titanss]

And to the Apathy poster:

I want to see a pic of this 43% Absolute Virtue. I don't give a shit how you got it there I want to see that it is a true possibility. The closest my linkshell has ever gotten is 78% and a little incentive and motivation would be nice.

[Spira]

Are you suggesting that the initial distinction between missions and quests is that missions are nation specific and forbid participation in other nation's activities? If so, then escort quests qualify as missions because they too are nation specific and you cannot activate one while another is active.

That was the initial distinction, yes. The escort quests do not qualify as it
1) does not have a continuous back storyline. it is only ONE stand-alone quest.
2) can be unflagged by simply talking to the quest giver again.
3) is repeatable. once a week. by the by, so were the eco-warrior quests.

Quests are quests. Missions are missions. They're distinguished in game by the log. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Your assertion that quests can be classified as missions would suggest that not only is the in game log wrong, but also that the Kazham Keys quest (Necessary to do Zilart missions) can be classified as a mission. Willing to make that claim?

Except you can actually BUY the airship pass with gil. Nobody does that cos its cheaper to just farm, but the alternative is there.. therefore it is NOT a necessity.

Like i said, the nation quests were meant to be mission storyline for each of the 3 sides, but were made as quests so that people could enjoy all 3 storylines at a go without having to switch sides unnecessarily. Because of this, they were designed to be labeled and classified as quests as quests do not force allegiance. but in the process, this meant that the quests themselves lost any form of bonuses added specifically to missions.

Most of the XP saving property of missions was implemented later on. I'm unsure about Nation missions, but I'm quite sure Zilart missions cost XP when initially introduced.

The XP saving property was added in ToAU, and was added retroactively to CoP, Zilart and nation missions. It applies too to WotG but not nation quests because of the way they were designed. They are meant to appear as if they are quests.

Which destroys the notion that Wings quests are classified as mission doesn't it?

Only because they are not set paths to take in order to progress to the next mission.
This is reminiscent of Divine Might. The 5 BC Ark Angels path was the original path to reach the next mission and was thus documented in the log. Divine Might (afaik, added later) offers an alternative path, and is not featured in the log, but can also lead to the next mission.

With WotG, the 3 paths were designed from the beginning, so as a measure of representing that all 3 paths were viable (and if you pick 1 path, the other 2 become optional), none of them were put into mission log. Adding to this, is that the nation quest storylines run parallel to the WotG time travel story, and have yet to intersect.

That depends on your idea of a trigger item. The NM you kill going up Delkutt's Tower gives you the R/EX item used to teleport to the floor you killed the NM on. Though I'm unsure if killing this NM was necessary to complete the mission.

Delkfutt key is used to open the door to the imprisoned ambassador to Jeuno in all 3 nation storylines.

Doesn't an exception mean your classification is incorrect? Moreover, can't I complete the final CoP mission for a different ring if desired?

Not really. The reacquisition of ACP body rewards are special cases because you had to pick 1 option out of several at the time and this is reliant on the nature of the reward and the mini-expansion - all the rewards are picked at random OR you have to choose something out of something else.

However, with all the prior expansions, there is no way of redoing one nation missions to get your gil reward again, or doing CoP's Airship battle gain for another Ducal Ring.

Someone isn't keeping up with the discussion. BRP stated that Wings missions give you better rewards "mission per mission" because they give you valuable items such as Angelstone and such. That posts you quoted was in response to that statement. Taken in context, it's a true statement since the only reward thus far from Wings missions is a flag.

I'm not going to argue on this because the value in question is subjective. If I were someone who relies on campaigns alot for exp, then the flags campaign bonus would be far more valuable to me than the rings

I stated this before, but I'll state it again. Missions are missions as distinguished by the logs. Quests are quests as distinguished by the logs. There's absolutely no need to debate over what a mission and a quest is because SE has already solved that problem.

ok then. tell me what Apocalyse Nigh falls under.
It is clearly listed in the quest log, yes, but it also changes the mission log for both CoP and Zilart when completed.