Question about a crit hit build vs haste build

[Redshift]

I dont know what the acc cap is. Another reason why I created this thread was just to see how these builds would look on paper.

Anywhoo, nobody answered my question so I guess I'll try and figure it out on my own. Its not that I'm bad at math, its that I dont know the formulas to figure out hit damage range, crit damage range, and acc%.

ACC cap on birds is 407.

I gave you an answer to your question. If you want to figure it out yourself, I PM'ed you after my first reply with something that can help you.

[Mazurat]

You are a godsent Red! And yeah, I read in here that the acc cap was 407.

This was something that I originally had in mind. Only I didnt know how acc% was calculated, Melee damage avg, and Crit damage average. I want to calc crit damage and factor that into all the info given. etc.
rukenshin: SAM/DRG - Underestimated?

Anywhoo, thanks for the PM :D

[Redshift]

If you have any questions about the xlxs sheet, just send me a PM.

[Hosom]

I've done every setup imaginable at birds...caps at 25-28k exp on a good day.

Good day:
Mnk/War War(forget sub) Rdm Brd Brd Cor
Both middle and bottom to pull from.

I'm pretty sure we were using Cor's roll, but I could be mistaken. Brds were giving Att and March iirc.

No, I don't want to hear about the amazing 40k/hr party you made where you lie and say you didn't use your Anniversary band.

[Spider-Dan]

I have been in SAM, Relic/Ares DRG, Ares DRG, BRD, BRD, WHM parties on birds and have found the XP cap to be based not at all on how fast you can kill but on how fast the mobs spawn. The limiting factor is number of mobs, not gear or skill or anything else.

Are you claiming that you've killed every mob within pulling range of middle, without a party below you?

No?

Then you don't know what the exp/hr cap of birds is.

Also as I already said, for a SAM if you are equipping yourself just to kill birds faster you will be hurting your ability to kill the only mobs left over. The Wivre are more difficult and require better gear.

If only there were some way to change gear when fighting different mobs.

Or are you saying that SAM should fulltime GKT because of the ~4 wivres they fight, at the expense of the ~25 birds they fight?

I am saying that you should not gear for something that doesn't relate to the more important and difficult aspects of the game, and where the difference in gear in will make little difference in total XP gain. My whole point is that improved performance on birds does not greatly reduce the time spent on them.

And I'm saying that gearing for birds is an end in and of itself. Your statement that gearing for birds is unwise because it doesn't help you for HNM makes no more sense than if I were to say that gearing for HNM is unwise because it doesn't help you for meripo.

Meripo is an extremely significant time investment in this game. Your argument that people should not bother trying to excel at birds (as if trying is some sort of scarce and closely-guarded resource) is completely without merit.

I would ask if you feel the same about people building their gear around Mamool (i.e. it's pointless, don't bother trying), but for some reason I have the feeling that you think killing Mamool for the same exp/hr (or even less) is Vastly More Important.

[ringthree]

Are you claiming that you've killed every mob within pulling range of middle, without a party below you?

No?

Then you don't know what the exp/hr cap of birds is.

This is so far off the point, and so rare as to be completely irrelevant.

If only there were some way to change gear when fighting different mobs.

Or are you saying that SAM should fulltime GKT because of the ~4 wivres they fight, at the expense of the ~25 birds they fight?

You can't change your merits mid-fight, so unless SAM is your only melee or you other main melee is DRG then polearm merits are pretty much a complete waste.

Yes, my point is that for the 10 or 11 birds you fight at a time polearm doesn't matter, because the speed you kill the birds doesn't effect your XP all that much. Since most people don't live on a server where they have access to 25 birds at a time, the respawn on the birds is the limiting factor in XP at the camp. I believe I have mentioned this factor before.

And I'm saying that gearing for birds is an end in and of itself. Your statement that gearing for birds is unwise because it doesn't help you for HNM makes no more sense than if I were to say that gearing for HNM is unwise because it doesn't help you for meripo.

Hey, whatever floats your boat. In general I find that I would rather do just about anything than worry about my equipment for mobs that have no relevance to the rest of the game, and where that equipment makes pretty much no difference for how much XP you are going to make.

Meripo is an extremely significant time investment in this game. Your argument that people should not bother trying to excel at birds (as if trying is some sort of scarce and closely-guarded resource) is completely without merit.

Hey again, if you spend tons of time meriting on birds, then go for it. Compared to the other things I do in this game bird parties really are the least of my worries. You can't kill mobs that haven't spawned.

I would ask if you feel the same about people building their gear around Mamool (i.e. it's pointless, don't bother trying), but for some reason I have the feeling that you think killing Mamool for the same exp/hr (or even less) is Vastly More Important.

Did I say anything about Mamools?

Like I said last time, you don't like me, I got that. It's the internet, that's gonna happen. You haven't provided any evidence that gear really makes much of any difference for bird camp XP/hour. I mean sure if we all lived on a perfect server where there were 25 birds and we could pull both levels without competition, then you might be right. But I am pretty sure the rest of us just play on normal servers where that situation never exists.

And there are only 21 birds total. 10 top, 11 bottom. Kinda proves the point about people always exaggerating about birds... /shrug.

[Spider-Dan]

You can't change your merits mid-fight, so unless SAM is your only melee or you other main melee is DRG then polearm merits are pretty much a complete waste.

...which would be an awesome response had you said, "Don't tune your combat merits for birds." That's a reasonable, valid point.

But instead, you said "don't bother gearing for birds," which makes no sense at all.

Yes, my point is that for the 10 or 11 birds you fight at a time polearm doesn't matter, because the speed you kill the birds doesn't effect your XP all that much. Since most people don't live on a server where they have access to 25 birds at a time, the respawn on the birds is the limiting factor in XP at the camp.

Let me ask you a question that seems painfully obvious to me:

If the OP were already exceeding the kill rate that the camp supports, do you really think he'd be in here asking how to increase his damage output?

The very existence of the question undercuts your rationale for dismissing it.

Hey, whatever floats your boat. In general I find that I would rather do just about anything than worry about my equipment for mobs that have no relevance to the rest of the game, and where that equipment makes pretty much no difference for how much XP you are going to make.

Again, your continued claim that birds (or merit parties in general, if you wish) "have no relevance to the rest of the game" is utterly without meaning. Corsair's Roll has no relevance to the rest of the game that doesn't involve gaining exp, but that doesn't make it any less important.

I also find it puzzling that you can say "equipment makes no difference at bird camp" at the exact same time you are saying "wivres are hard and require better gear," but whatever.

Like I said last time, you don't like me, I got that.

If that's how you want to rationalize away my objections to your extremely flawed arguments, be my guest.

You haven't provided any evidence that gear really makes much of any difference for bird camp XP/hour.

By your own admission, wivres "require better gear." If they "require better gear" then that means that some parties kill them faster than others, right? If you kill at capped spawn rate regardless, then what does it matter what gear you have for wivres?

In my experience, people who talk about "capping out spawn rate" are killing birds only. Think I'm exaggerating?

G.Colibri are LV81-82, avg. exp/kill for chain 5+ (with Sanction) = 204xp
10 spawns on middle floor, 5 minute respawn (so 12 sets of birds per hour)

If you kill all 10 (and just those 10) in exactly the time needed to maintain infinite chain, you wind up with 204 x 10 * 12 = 24,480xp/hr

Funny how killing only those 10 birds is exactly the same capped xp at max spawn rate as "killing everything you can grab from top and bottom including wivres," huh?

[ringthree]

Ok, if you are right, how much XP do you make in a party at bird camp?

[Yugl]

I have been in SAM, Relic/Ares DRG, Ares DRG, BRD, BRD, WHM parties on birds and have found the XP cap to be based not at all on how fast you can kill but on how fast the mobs spawn.

Hate to break it to you Mr.Salvage, but Ares pieces are trumped by other sets of gear (Except Legs which are debatable against Heca legs). Aurum Body trumps Ares body. Turban + Homam/Heca for other pieces. I don't get why ignorant people assume Ares DRG = good. I guess people think that a 15mil+ set in gear automatically validates its usage.

It's not about how fast you kill, and you cannot control mob spawn. However, you can control kill speed. Killing too fast and breaking the chain will destroy your XP. I'm assuming that's what happened in this group you appear to be bragging about. In other words, a solution to mob respawn is managing kill speed.

Also as I already said, for a SAM if you are equipping yourself just to kill birds faster you will be hurting your ability to kill the only mobs left over. The Wivre are more difficult and require better gear. Polearm SAM is essentially self-negating at bird camp.

Polearm SAM can destroy Wivres if geared properly, so I don't get your point. If you're complaining about kill speed, then it's better to slow down kills in order to keep chains by letting mobs respawn. Your argument that respawn timers limit XP and Polearm SAM limits kill speed on Wivre actually suggests that Polearm SAMs are good.

I am saying that you should not gear for something that doesn't relate to the more important and difficult aspects of the game, and where the difference in gear in will make little difference in total XP gain. My whole point is that improved performance on birds does not greatly reduce the time spent on them. My priorities are in fact quite in line here.

Your argument is faulty on few basis:

1. You can change gear sets for different mobs.

2. People spend months killing Colibri

3. You're assuming the PT is good enough to wipe the entire area. If picking one set over another increases his kill speed, he can compensate for worse PTs. I know you don't grasp this concept because every PT is great or you leave, but for once don't be ignorant.

[ringthree]

Hate to break it to you Mr.Salvage, but Ares pieces are trumped by other sets of gear (Except Legs which are debatable against Heca legs). Aurum Body trumps Ares body. Turban + Homam/Heca for other pieces. I don't get why ignorant people assume Ares DRG = good. I guess people think that a 15mil+ set in gear automatically validates its usage.

It's not about how fast you kill, and you cannot control mob spawn. However, you can control kill speed. Killing too fast and breaking the chain will destroy your XP. I'm assuming that's what happened in this group you appear to be bragging about. In other words, a solution to mob respawn is managing kill speed.



Polearm SAM can destroy Wivres if geared properly, so I don't get your point. If you're complaining about kill speed, then it's better to slow down kills in order to keep chains by letting mobs respawn. Your argument that respawn timers limit XP and Polearm SAM limits kill speed on Wivre actually suggests that Polearm SAMs are good.



Your argument is faulty on few basis:

1. You can change gear sets for different mobs.

2. People spend months killing Colibri

3. You're assuming the PT is good enough to wipe the entire area. If picking one set over another increases his kill speed, he can compensate for worse PTs. I know you don't grasp this concept because every PT is great or you leave, but for once don't be ignorant.

Ok, prove me wrong. How much XP do you get?

[Yugl]

30k/Hr.

Edit: Prove me wrong and show that gimp group can't benefit anymore from a player that does more damage than he usually would.

[Spider-Dan]

Ok, if you are right, how much XP do you make in a party at bird camp?

Why even ask? The actual, literal max spawn rate at that camp (if you are somehow pulling everything from middle and bottom) is:

21 colibri @ 204 avg. xp = 4284xp
8 wivre @ 180 avg. xp = 1440xp
4284 + 1440 = 5724xp / set * 12 = 68,688xp/hr (before Corsair's Roll; 79,472xp/hr with avg. Corsair's Roll results)

I make less than 80k/hr there. Does that answer your question?

For the record, if you can kill 10 colibri and 4 wivre every 5 minutes (i.e. one floor), that's 33k/hr before COR roll.

If you think bird camp is spawn rate capped at 25k/hr, you have been killing birds only. Period.

[Starr]

If you think Polearm merits for a SAM main is only good for birds you are also retarded.

[ringthree]

30k/Hr.

Edit: Prove me wrong and show that gimp group can't benefit anymore from a player that does more damage than he usually would.

With or without your XP ring?

[ringthree]

If you think Polearm merits for a SAM main is only good for birds you are also retarded.

If you only have one melee job then you are totally right.

[ringthree]

Why even ask? The actual, literal max spawn rate at that camp (if you are somehow pulling everything from middle and bottom) is:

21 colibri @ 204 avg. xp = 4284xp
8 wivre @ 180 avg. xp = 1440xp
4284 + 1440 = 5724xp / set * 12 = 68,688xp/hr (before Corsair's Roll; 79,472xp/hr with avg. Corsair's Roll results)

I make less than 80k/hr there. Does that answer your question?

For the record, if you can kill 10 colibri and 4 wivre every 5 minutes (i.e. one floor), that's 33k/hr before COR roll.

If you think bird camp is spawn rate capped at 25k/hr, you have been killing birds only. Period.

Ahh, yes, I am sure you make 33k/hr every time, you are just awesome. Everyone else must just be totally gimp in your world with open and empty bird camps.

I have already stated the reasons why I think building for a single XP camp isn't worth it. I have also stated that once you take out the exaggeration, and completely unlikely scenarios you will average around 25k/hr. Some a little more, some a little less, but generally around that.

For you, this isn't about crit hits, or haste or builds. It's about me. While endearing, I am done with that for now.

[Grenfang]

Ahh, yes, I am sure you make 33k/hr every time, you are just awesome. Everyone else must just be totally gimp in your world with open and empty bird camps.

I have already stated the reasons why I think building for a single XP camp isn't worth it. I have also stated that once you take out the exaggeration, and completely unlikely scenarios you will average around 25k/hr. Some a little more, some a little less, but generally around that.

For you, this isn't about crit hits, or haste or builds. It's about me. While endearing, I am done with that for now.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you can get at least a floor to yourself (10 birds + 4 wivres). If you are on middle its usually possible to pull some mamool as well if necessary.

TBH ringthree, Spider-Dan is putting up some pretty valid arguments. If clearing 10 birds + 4 wivres in 5 minutes theoretically nets you 33k an hour before COR rolls, than surely with COR roll its realistically possible to get 30k+ consistently in a real-world, well geared group.

In the mean-time, you've pretty much just been whining about how no one likes you since halfway through the first page of the thread.

[ringthree]

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that you can get at least a floor to yourself (10 birds + 4 wivres). If you are on middle its usually possible to pull some mamool as well if necessary.

TBH ringthree, Spider-Dan is putting up some pretty valid arguments. If clearing 10 birds + 4 wivres in 5 minutes theoretically nets you 33k an hour before COR rolls, than surely with COR roll its realistically possible to get 30k+ consistently in a real-world, well geared group.

In the mean-time, you've pretty much just been whining about how no one likes you since halfway through the first page of the thread.

You aren't going to clear 10 birds and 4 wivres in 5 minutes. To do that you would have to kill every mob included Wivres in 22 seconds, and you would have to maintain that constantly for an hour.

That never happens.

And that's the point. I am trying to avoid the constant exaggeration about bird camp, and well, nearly everything in this game. There is a trend by some people to look at very extreme situations and then give people advice based on that situations instead of looking at something normal and adjusting for there.

XP generally caps around 25k on birds. Some people get a couple k more, some a little less. It's not a hard cap, but in general for the large majority of players, even very, very good players, it's not going to change very much. The effect of gear has highly diminishing returns on XP/hour at birds.

None of that was ever really answered, except with assertions of very high XP numbers. The answers we generally terse and dismissive without an argument about how changing gear really effects any of this. If you don't agree, so be it. /shrug

[Spider-Dan]

I have already stated the reasons why I think building for a single XP camp isn't worth it. I have also stated that once you take out the exaggeration, and completely unlikely scenarios you will average around 25k/hr. Some a little more, some a little less, but generally around that.

No, that's NOT what you said.

You said that bird camp is spawn rate limited at 25k/hr. This is clearly false; with just one floor to yourself, you can mathematically get 33k/hr before Corsair's Roll.

The real irony is that immediately after claiming that bird camp is spawn limited at 25k/hr, you come back with this sh*t:

You aren't going to clear 10 birds and 4 wivres in 5 minutes. To do that you would have to kill every mob included Wivres in 22 seconds, and you would have to maintain that constantly for an hour.

Doesn't this statement COMPLETELY ANNIHILATE your ENTIRE PREMISE that it's pointless to try to increase your damage output at birds because it's "spawn rate limited"?

G f*cking G, man.

For you, this isn't about crit hits, or haste or builds. It's about me.

Yeah, it's not about you being unequivocally proved factually wrong, it's because I just don't like your tone. Just keep telling yourself that.

I called this one correctly at the start: it is not a coincidence that the person who thinks there's no point in gearing for birds has never seen over 25k/hr at them.

[Killkenny]

Way to be a complete douchebag. Not everyone is a high and almighty master of the game knows all the ins and outs of every little camp with every buff and debuff and what variables cor's add in the mix. And the differences between individual mob levels at individual camps and adjust gear accordingly. Seriously. People like you are too fucking anal about this game. Why? Oh...so you can get .5% more damage over the next guy who's anal but not quite as anal as you? Right. Do the world a favour and unplug your modem.

As to my "very stupid" gear choices and "common knowledge" Keep this in mind. I have done zero math on this build. Thats why I tossed this out here, so people could take a peek and see where it leads them. I didnt want dinks like you coming in here telling me its stupid for <insert reason here>. Blah blah fucking blah. I want a comparison, not your opinion.

Ok mister high and almighty cheapskate. Who said anything about paying for these? ZNM this shit man. Zeni is retardedly easy to get as a blm.

Let the flame wars begin.

The reason it was very stupid is because all of this was already common knowledge. The fact that haste builds and crit builds have been compared to death, mostly on birds, shows that you haven't even attempted to realise if the question you're asking has already been answered.

You did no math on the build just shows even further that its a pointless question, most people don't know the ins and outs of every merit camp but most posting here do for birds, and the information is plastered all over these boards. Its also odd that you took the time to find colibris agi but not to find the accuracy cap as its far more valuble information.

As for the cheapskate comment, Hachiryu hands are still worth 6m~ whether you got the drop or paid for them yourself, and by the gears you listed in your OP the gil would be better spent elsewhere. As a closer, zeni may be easy to get for just about any job, it is also extremely time consuming and not a good use of time for a lot of players, not to mention the drop rate on hachiryu pieces isn't spectacular (24.5k~ for a tier 4 popset is realistically 30~ seperate hours of taking photos and handing them in, then the time it takes to get people to kill the NMs).

Also, U Mad.