Large Hardon Collider

[Kaylia]

^
That's exactly why he shouldn't have talked about aliens. Now I'm about to go to bed, and I'm raging inside.

[pahnphoenix]

^
That's exactly why you don't talk about aliens

because the stuff you say is so obvious that it's trivial? even a glancing familiarity with advances in physics over the last 100 years entail everything hawking said. so what?

edit: hold on, 1+1=2, hawkings shouldn't talk about aliens b/c of my post and b/c he'll be misinterpreted. but i'm patently not misinterpreting him. what the fuck?

[Kuya]

The part about aliens existing somewhere? I don't know many people who disagree with his statement. It wasnt new, and I don't know why they are making headline with this, other than the fact that the word "aliens" get a lot of click.

However, trying to scare people with aliens is retarded. I don't care if it's a possibilities, the scenario is way too hypothetical to make statement like this. First of all, if there is already many "earth-like" planet, why the aliens would pick one with people that would fight back? It's not our hydrogen is better.

Secondly, he doesnt mention (did he?) to the current stance of physics on space travel (faster than light or not), and how likely it is that aliens are actually traveling in space to rape us considering they are most likely dealing with the same restriction.


Also, it's obvious he said this for attention, and that alone annoy me.






I just hate when physicist talk about something that will obviously get misinterpreted. If that wasnt his intention, he should have realized it.

No, i mean that is better to not try to communicate with other alien species. If space travel is ever possible for any species, i just don't see why we should assume they would be benevolent and not manipulative dicks. I know this has less to do with science and more about outlooks on the characteristics of intelligent beings, but i don't see a big a deal as you do.

He is entitled to his opinion, but perhaps you would have prefered if he had prefaced his statement with "this is just my opinion but...".

[Kuya]

I think kaylia is hung up on the space travel point, which i saw as a hypothetical but he seems to feel is an irresponsible hypothetical, rather than the whole aliens might not be nice so it is more reasonable to avoid trying to contact them point.

[Woozie]

it's glaringly obvious that hawking is right. we're not talking age/size of the universe/reality here, we're talking pretty simple stuff. sure, we could luck out and communicate with "friendly aliens", and sure, the will to violence and pillaging might be purely human (though the size of the universe and probability combine to suggest that no concept/aspect would be purely human), but *obviously* if a ship flew by earth they would probably see us as a resources first and foremost (if they "made contact" with us in an intelligible way at all).

As Kaylia pointed out, there are plenty of planets with resources where the locals don't have nuclear weapons. If they had the capabilities for interstellar travel, it would make more sense for them to go elsewhere for resources. I'm not saying they're going to be super peaceful or anything, just saying if we do fight, it probably wont be over resources since said resources are easily available in very large quantities elsewhere.

also, excepting the possibility that humanity was created by a sentient, willful God, it's fairly obvious given the number of galaxes + stars in galaxies (that we even know of) that extraterrestrial life exists. intelligent life? again, billions of galaxies with billions of stars... if we're the only intelligent life, the odds are OVERWHELMINGLY large that there's a principled reason (like a God, or a grievous error on our part about the size/nature of the universe/reality) for our uniqueness. absent any good reason to believe in such a reason (and, to be frank, there is no such good reason) and with good reason to believe that our concept of the universe is reasonably accurate (experiments and observation), you're sort of forced to believe in extraterrestrial intelligent life.

No one argues whether or not aliens exist. The only thing that's ever argued is whether or not they could get here (and based on our current understanding of the universe, the answer would be 'no'. But, hey, maybe we're wrong).

[Kuya]

But what if... we're the resources!

[Woozie]

Then Will Smith will have to hack the mothership with his Mac again.

Now that I think about it, I don't even remember why we were under attack in that movie.

[Kuya]

They were dicks.

[pahnphoenix]

As Kaylia pointed out, there are plenty of planets with resources where the locals don't have nuclear weapons. If they had the capabilities for interstellar travel, it would make more sense for them to go elsewhere for resources. I'm not saying they're going to be super peaceful or anything, just saying if we do fight, it probably wont be over resources since said resources are easily available in very large quantities elsewhere.



No one argues whether or not aliens exist. The only thing that's ever argued is whether or not they could get here (and based on our current understanding of the universe, the answer would be 'no'. But, hey, maybe we're wrong).

re: resources, if you're following hawking and using human civilization as a model, that's not really how resource-finding works... but regardless, "whether or not aliens would find us and rape us for resources" is different than "whether contact would mean a battle for resources or not." hawking isn't coming down on either issue, but he is saying that there's a good chance that the answer to the latter concern is "it could".

re: space travel, surely no one knows how long it takes for life to develop, or how many habitable planets there are or how old they are. i can't imagine any serious study is done on that... we have no idea how close the nearest life would be, or whether or not there's migrant life.

remember, hawking is right precisely for the layman character of what he's saying. we don't know what it takes for life to spring up, and we sure as hell don't know what it takes for conscious/intelligent life to spring up (i suspect my philosophy background might speak to that latter part more than whatever work you physicists do). we're talking broad generality here: there's life. there's tons of shit. chances of 1 life in universe are small. chances that other life has similar limitations to ours are big. so if we encounter (big if) other life, they may need shit we have and take it. you don't need to know much to make these statements...

[Kaylia]

because the stuff you say is so obvious that it's trivial? even a glancing familiarity with advances in physics over the last 100 years entail everything hawking said. so what?

Did you actually read the whole thing. You say he is right, but only comment the first part. That's not where the issue come from.

No, i mean that is better to not try to communicate with other alien species. If space travel is ever possible for any species, i just don't see why we should assume they would be benevolent and not manipulative dicks. I know this has less to do with science and more about outlooks on the characteristics of intelligent beings, but i don't see a big a deal as you do.

He is entitled to his opinion, but perhaps you would have prefered if he had prefaced his statement with "this is just my opinion but...".

Problem doesnt lie in the idea or logic, it lies in the wording. He present it like a threat, without giving a good picture of the whole situation. Every articles I've seen about it (read 3) make it sound like contacting aliens will lead to a human vs predator scenario.



"He suggests that aliens might simply raid Earth for its resources and then move on: “We only have to look at ourselves to see how intelligent life might develop into something we wouldn’t want to meet. I imagine they might exist in massive ships, having used up all the resources from their home planet. Such advanced aliens would perhaps become nomads, looking to conquer and colonise whatever planets they can reach.”

He concludes that trying to make contact with alien races is “a little too risky”. He said: “If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”
There is many strong words and images in these 2 paragraph. Was it really needed to make his point?

Instead, why not talk about the unknown probability of encountering a race that would harm us, and explain that it might not worth to gamble our race on an unknown odd. It's essentially the same argument, without the biased image.

[Kuya]

Yea, you're right. It would have been better if he phrased it that if alien life capable of space travel existed, it would be too much of a dangerous gamble to assume they would be benevolent, because at least human history says otherwise. To think, human history informs us otherwise, but we do the exact opposite...

[pahnphoenix]

he's just saying that there's a good chance that a space-faring race would need resources, and contacting them could be a bad idea (especially considering that they're able to space fare in the first place). he's not saying there will be a predator scenario, just that there's a good chance of it. lots of "mights". and he's right. he'd still be right if we "made contact" tomorrow with a peaceful species, or if aliens don't exist at all.

[Kaylia]

I think kaylia is hung up on the space travel point, which i saw as a hypothetical but he seems to feel is an irresponsible hypothetical, rather than the whole aliens might not be nice so it is more reasonable to avoid trying to contact them point.

He is talking to people who probably know nothing about sciences. If you tell them aliens might be traveling on large space ship right after telling them aliens exists, they are automatically going to imagine a big space ship filled with angry aliens. It's slightly hypocrite to not give them a more realistic view of what the universe with aliens would be. He jump from an extremely broad statistical statement, to a particular topic.

What % of the planets have life?
What % of the planets have intelligent life?
What % of the planets have better intelligent life?
What % of the planets have better intelligent life that overcame every freaking problems related to space travels?
What % of the planets have better intelligent life that overcame every freaking problems related to space AND want to rape other intelligent life form AND can actually put up a fights against us (althought, I would be worried about them if they can travel, and our physics remain the same)


What's the odd that this species would decide to rape us after hearing our signal?
What's the difference between us trying to contact them, and emitting radia signal? I really don't see the difference between our normal activity, and us trying to contact them ....assuming their technology is superior to our, there is a good chance they could already see us in the first place with or without our signal.


Maybe I should watch the actual video before complaining, because it might not be as bad as what media reported, but I thought it was a really shitty way to make your point accross.

[Woozie]

Kuya, the way people were reacting on the news this morning is the way Kaylia is complaining about. So Kaylia does have a point. Though, like I said, I blame the people, not Hawking.

Edit: Also, 2 out of 4 of my exam questions are done! I should be able to finish by 7am assuming I don't go for extra credit.

[Kaylia]

he's just saying that there's a good chance that a space-faring race would need resources, and contacting them could be a bad idea (especially considering that they're able to space fare in the first place). he's not saying there will be a predator scenario, just that there's a good chance of it. lots of "mights". and he's right. he'd still be right if we "made contact" tomorrow with a peaceful species, or if aliens don't exist at all.

Mind telling me why it is a "good chance" more than a "slight chance"? Explain it with sciences since it's so obvious according to you.

Science shouldn't deal with "might", you shouldn't explain thing with "might" or mention a single possibility when there is many. That's not how I was taught sciences, and that's not how it should be.


Hawking said nothing false. He isnt stupid enough to make a false statement. However, that doesnt mean his approach was the right one.

[Max™]

He suggested first a very important idea (which should be obvious), that we shouldn't restrict our definition of life to carbon based processes.

Then he speculated on a few ways that could work, silicon/liquid nitrogen in a cold enviro, etc.

Then he mentioned that if life is endemic to the universe, and there is intelligent life here, there is probably intelligent life elsewhere.

Then he mentioned that claims of alien abductions are absurd, and the idea that the governments of the world hide it would suggest the only thing they are good at doing is hiding aliens.

Then he adds that it is not unlikely that part of the reason for developing intelligence is to better find and use resources, suggesting that an alien intelligence capable of travelling between stars would most likely be motivated by the search for resources, and given human history of more advanced cultures interacting with less advanced ones, it probably wouldn't end well for us.


He did NOT say "OMG ALIENZ IS COMIN' TO GIT 'ER OIL!" or anything like that.

What would YOU do if you were stuck in that body, can you blame him for sitting around thinking about things like this?

Btw, Woozie, loved the comic: send the clergy, they can move diagonally!

[Kuya]

Oh well, media shenanigans aside, i do agree with the notion that we shouldn't try to contact something we know so little about.

[Shiroikage]

Edit: Also, 2 out of 4 of my exam questions are done! I should be able to finish by 7am assuming I don't go for extra credit.

I believe in you!

[Kaylia]

Then he adds that it is not unlikely that part of the reason for developing intelligence is to better find and use resources, suggesting that an alien intelligence capable of travelling between stars would most likely be motivated by the search for resources, and given human history of more advanced cultures interacting with less advanced ones, it probably wouldn't end well for us.

Doesnt sound nearly as bad as what was posted on the news website...

Just to make it clear, he didnt talk about contacting aliens on purpose?

Oh well, media shenanigans aside, i do agree with the notion that we shouldn't try to contact something we know so little about.

And what is your definition of "contacting"? Send electromagnetic wave in space? If so, I have bad news for you....

[Woozie]

I think he means some situation where they're capable of visiting us (assuming that's a possibility).