Large Hardon Collider

[Kuya]

Doesnt sound nearly as bad as what was posted on the news website...

Just to make it clear, he didnt talk about contacting aliens on purpose?



And what is your definition of "contacting"? Send electromagnetic wave in space? If so, I have bad news for you....

Yes, i am aware we already emit signals out into space, such as tv signals. What i am assuming (without having specific knowledge of) is that when we make those fabled attempts to comunicate with other alien species, our signals reach farther out, or perhaps there's something else to them i don't know about. If there is no difference between our specific attempts to send out messages to aliens and our broadcasting of signals for other purposes, then nevermind, we're sol anyway.

[Kaylia]

Actually, the first website I read was talking about us warning aliens of our presence, not aliens entering in contact with us. That's what confused me.If aliens found us and want our ressource, then we are fucked up and I agree with him.


However, I still don't understand why he would try to scare people with this idea? It's stating the obvious., but an unecessary obvious.

Yes, i am aware we already emit signals out into space, such as tv signals. What i am assuming (without having specific knowledge of) is that when we make those fabled attempts to comunicate with other alien species, our signals reach farther out, or perhaps there's something else to them i don't know about. If there is no difference between our specific attempts to send out messages to aliens and our broadcasting of signals for other purposes, then nevermind, we're sol anyway.

Wave travel at light speed either way, so it's at best a matter of intensity. If the aliens can detect this and travels to us, they probably knew there is O2 here, and we are sol.


[edit]
Also, they can't tell if we have a proper atmosphere from radio communication, and leaving to space on a gamble that maybe the planet will have the proper ressource would be kinda stupid considering you're looking at 100-100000 years travel

[Kuya]

Wait, it was aliens trying to contact us? If so, ignore!

[Max™]

He said trying to make contact was unwise.

[Kaylia]

Wait, it was aliens trying to contact us? If so, ignore!

Put them on hold.

He said trying to make contact was unwise.

Ok, then my point still stand.

I do agree there is a risk involved, but to quantify it is very debatable.

[Max™]

Well, considering the worst outcome: (we wind up harvested/wiped out) as opposed to the best outcome: (hyperadvanced aliens give us amazing technological solutions to all our problems, liberate us from politics, religion, and disease... insert other positive shit here), I'd say the risk being an absolute end of humanity outweighs the possible benefits.

Many people actually don't grasp that, surprisingly.

[Kuya]

The solution to politics and religion for human beings is the destruction of human beings. So yes, perhaps aliens are always benevolent.

[Kaylia]

Well, considering the worst outcome: (we wind up harvested/wiped out) as opposed to the best outcome: (hyperadvanced aliens give us amazing technological solutions to all our problems, liberate us from politics, religion, and disease... insert other positive shit here), I'd say the risk being an absolute end of humanity outweighs the possible benefits.

Many people actually don't grasp that, surprisingly.

They come to harvest us, we kick their ass and steal their technology. Mankind is united in front of a common ennemy. There is no more war, and the sky is now open to us.


I say contact them.


[edit]

Also, in the grand scheme of thing, what's the problem with being wiped off the Earth? We arent the first or last species to dissapears, and it's bound to happen someday.

[Max™]

Uh, because I need humanity to last long enough to build me a virtually indestructible device to store my awareness in, so I can go study the Universe and think about shit?

[Kuya]

Well, i think that dying sucks, and i assume that almost everyone else does. So there we go, humanity dying out sucks.

[Woozie]

Uh, because I need humanity to last long enough to build me a virtually indestructible device to store my awareness in, so I can go study the Universe and think about shit?

You want an indestructible body so you can go... study stuff?

Worst. Supervillian. EVER

[Kaylia]

Well, i think that dying sucks, and i assume that almost everyone else does. So there we go, humanity dying out sucks.

What if I don't want to die, but don't care if others die? I assume most people don't want to die, but don't care that much about other.

Since it takes many hundred years to contact an aliens species, why would I care about other people dying?


[edit]
Isn't like abortion anyway? Killing hypothetical people. We can't start giving a voice to future generation, can we?


[edit2]
Althought, I'm not against the idea of making future generation vote for the currents president. At least they would know which one was the best.

[pahnphoenix]

i'm not seeing where your difficulty is coming from... i don't need to Prove With Science the simple claim people have already restated a few times: intelligent + need resources = chance aliens would try to take resources. even leaving out that this alien race we contact apparently has space travel, it's still a 50/50 chance they're capable of taking our resources, and the aforementioned reasons give "good chance" for odds that they'd want to.

maybe you're just looking at this in some bizarrely wrong way... i think you're making the mistake woozie is warning Common People from making. he's not trying to usurp one type of physics here, or prove anything. you're overreacting to a patently obvious statement more than you're imagining other people will overreact to "aliens could be resource hungry".

is it "good chance" that's bothering you? there's a good chance that i'm actually a woman. there's also a good chance that i'm a man. sound baffling? there's a bad chance that i'm a unicorn. think this one through as hard you can.

[Kuya]

No, but seriously, why wouldn't you want the human species to persist? Do you mean why would you care after you die? Well, that's not a particularly helpful stance, considering that you only exist because other humans exist. If we look at it from a strictly biological point of view, then the point of life is to exist and reproduce, so why shouldn't we make sure our species continues to exist for as long as possible? Isn't that the point of dealing with global warming?

Maybe kaylia is not the sort of person who feels a particular attachment to the phrase "human species", but like most people feel an attachment to their families, regions, and nations, they might see the "human species" as something that belongs to them as is part of their identity. So perhaps i feel this attachment and see the "human species" as something that belongs to me, and feel compelled to protect it.

[Kaylia]

i'm not seeing where your difficulty is coming from... i don't need to Prove With Science the simple claim people have already restated a few times: intelligent + need resources = chance aliens would try to take resources. even leaving out that this alien race we contact apparently has space travel, it's still a 50/50 chance they're capable of taking our resources, and the aforementioned reasons give "good chance" for odds that they'd want to.

maybe you're just looking at this in some bizarrely wrong way... i think you're making the mistake woozie is warning Common People from making. he's not trying to usurp one type of physics here, or prove anything. you're overreacting to a patently obvious statement more than you're imagining other people will overreact to "aliens could be resource hungry".

is it "good chance" that's bothering you? there's a good chance that i'm actually a woman. there's also a good chance that i'm a man. sound baffling? there's a bad chance that i'm a unicorn. think this one through as hard you can.

Yes you do, you quantified something, and need to explain how you quantified it. It's not a 50% chance, we have no stats on the topic. It's an unknown probability, the end.

Are you using the one and single intelligent life form we know to make statistics? Hawking did mention about these lifeform being far beyond our understanding...so why are we applying our idealogy to them?

[pahnphoenix]

Yes you do, you quantified something, and need to explain how you quantified it. It's not a 50% chance, we have no stats on the topic. It's an unknown probability, the end.

Are you using the one and single intelligent life form we know to make statistics? Hawking did mention about these lifeform being far beyond our understanding...so why are we applying our idealogy to them?

...surely you don't let practical action only be informed by 100% informed probability? i'm not reiterating again that a) aliens probably need resources, b) intelligence possibly consisting in, exactly, proficiency at obtaining resources, c) we have resources, so d) there's a good chance aliens would want our resources. better than 5% chance? better than 10%? i'm walking down the street and recognize certain actions that imply to me that the person i'm looking at might be dangerous. am i 5% sure? 10%?

you're looking at this all wrong. hawking is saying patently obvious things. you're overreacting like a biologist saying "BUT WAIT THEY'LL THINK OUR GRANDFATHER COULD HAVE BEEN A MONKEY, DON'T SAY THAT!" good chance = as good as anything else that makes sense.

edit: as for my 50/50 quantifying, i'm saying that they either can take our shit or they can't. we know 2 outcomes. we know nothing else for certain. what little we know (they can travel in space given the limitations of physics) points to "they can probably take our shit," but i generously even stipulated that consideration away. so, again, 2 outcomes, nothing pointing one way or the other. approximately 50/50 odds.

i have a coin in my pocket. 50/50 odds that if i flip it, i get heads. "but given how it's shaped and your tendency to start with it heads down and and and," won't be 50/50 odds after i know some of that shit, but i don't know it.

[Max™]

You want an indestructible body so you can go... study stuff?

Worst. Supervillian. EVER

Oh, my supervillain plans involve forcibly removing every government on Earth, while setting up companies offering private defense services to a newly opened market, and playing the role of universal threat, giving the people a common goal to focus on, to distract them from the social reform required to bring about a true anarchist utopia.

THEN I would go study stuff.

[Kaylia]

No, but seriously, why wouldn't you want the human species to persist? Do you mean why would you care after you die? Well, that's not a particularly helpful stance, considering that you only exist because other humans exist. If we look at it from a strictly biological point of view, then the point of life is to exist and reproduce, so why shouldn't we make sure our species continues to exist for as long as possible? Isn't that the point of dealing with global warming?

Maybe kaylia is not the sort of person who feels a particular attachment to the phrase "human species", but like most people feel an attachment to their families, regions, and nations, they might see the "human species" as something that belongs to them as is part of their identity. So perhaps i feel this attachment and see the "human species" as something that belongs to me, and feel compelled to protect it.

You saved many aliens that were bound to a cruel death...you don't have to feel bad.

I exist because other human existed before me, and I will probably reproduce because that's what my genes tell me to do, but I don't believe it's the "point of life". Just like a rock purpose isn't to roll down a cliff, I don't think we have any particular purpose...we just follow the flow of time like everything else.


I'm just playing the devil advocate here, but in all seriousness, manking being wiped off the surface of universe eventually isa fact just as much as aliens existing everywhere. Now that we know our species is bound to dissapears eventually, why do we wants to make it survive for as long as we can, when nothing we accomplish matter.

[pahnphoenix]

i wouldn't say nothing we accomplish "matters", but it's definitely good to question the naive assumption that raw extension of the duration of life (for a person or a species) automatically has value or is worthwhile (--to someone... 'worthwhile' should be transitive).

[Max™]

Given enough time to work on the problem, one may be able to find a way around those "certainties", either through time travel, tunneling to other universes, or more exotic possibilities still.

I would prefer to see those possibilities, than not see them. There is still far too much that we do not understand, dying without understanding them is a waste.